Is Paul Arguing for Universal Salvation?

[WSGAC]

I think universal salvation is a view that has merit. Look at Paul's argument in Romans 9-11.

The flow of Paul's argument in Romans 9, states that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. He then makes distinction between children of *physical descent* and children of the *promise.* In Romans 10, Paul continues to develop his argument showing the distinction between the righteousness of God which comes through faith vs. the righteousness that seeks its own way via the law. But he also begins articulating the agony of the dilemma...namely, how could Israel, God's chosen, reject the good news?(v. 16). Paul cites some passages in Isaiah, Psalms, Deuteronomy demonstrating it was God's dilemma too.

He then asks the big and provacative questions in chapter 11. First verses 1-2 - "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew... Paul resolves the dilemma of his people's destiny by stating it is part of the plan...God gave his people a spirit of stupor, blinding them to what God is doing. It's this blinding that is the reason for their disobedience and rejection of God's good news. But this rejection is what allows the Gentiles to enter into the picture, to receive salvation!

Now what do we do with the big question he raises a few verses later: "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?" (11:11-12). Obviously when Paul says "they", he's not talking about the "called ones" here, for he has already identified the called ones as the faithful remnant which will be saved. (11:4-5) Indeed, the ones he refers to as "they" are the fallen ones who have stumbled...who have rejected the good news.

It's a provocative question because up to this point his argument seems pretty clear, that the unfaithful...those who stumbled by rejecting...those who did not receive the promise...those who are not part of the faithful remnant....they are those same who do not belong to Israel, even though they may be physically descended from Israel. And remember, "only a remnant shall be saved." (9:27)

So which is it? Is unfaithful Israel destined for wrath, not to be included as recipients of salvation, as he suggests in chaps. 9 an 10? Or are they able to be recovered? Paul's question, "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?" suggest he's moving in that direction of recovery. Why else would he ask the question? And he answers that question with, "NOT AT ALL!"

That's odd! He's just made the case that they are objects of wrath, not true Israel, not part of the faithful remnant, non recipients of the promise....all because of their lack of faith, demonstrated in their rejection of Christ. Sounds like they're going straight to hell, if you ask me. But Paul says NOT AT ALL! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Very strange indeed!

Paul develops his argument further in a concluding remark that makes clear God's plan. God can and does accomplish His purposes even when we, in our freedom, say NO! to God. In fact, God takes that NO!, turns it on its head, and uses it to bring about our salvation. Who could imagine that the greatest "NO!" we could ever raise to God...crucifying the only Son...could be taken by God and used to bless and save us? In our very act of treachery and rebellion against God, crucifying his Son, God is not frustrated. He takes our disobedience into Himself, and blesses us.

Paul's concluding words which underscore this,"Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound *everyone* over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them *all*." (Romans 11:30-32)

[Vhayes]

Just so you know, I am going to try and move this thread over to Areopagus where it can be discussed more freely.

[WSGAC]

Just so you know, I am going to try and move this thread over to Areopagus where it can be discussed more freely.

But it's on Scripture, not philosophy! Isn't this the Bible Chat forum?

[RabbiKnife]

But it's on Scripture, not philosophy! Isn't this the Bible Chat forum?

Yes, but universalism is a heresy that this forum does not promote. It can be discussed in this area called "Areopagus", but not in Bible chat.

[Vhayes]

But it's on Scripture, not philosophy! Isn't this the Bible Chat forum?

I think the Rabbi gave you the answer. Are we all ok with continuing on in this subforum?

[Athanasius]

Assuming that by 'universal salvation' you mean all people will be saved, irrespective of everything and anything they've done, then I'm at a loss to see how anything near this view is found in Romans 9-11... Or in Paul at all, for that matter. When God saves everyone, who cares about sin.

[Vhayes]

Paul develops his argument further in a concluding remark that makes clear God's plan. God can and does accomplish His purposes even when we, in our freedom, say NO! to God. In fact, God takes that NO!, turns it on its head, and uses it to bring about our salvation. Who could imagine that the greatest "NO!" we could ever raise to God...crucifying the only Son...could be taken by God and used to bless and save us? In our very act of treachery and rebellion against God, crucifying his Son, God is not frustrated. He takes our disobedience into Himself, and blesses us.

Paul's concluding words which underscore this,"Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound *everyone* over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them *all*." (Romans 11:30-32)

I bought you a Ferrari. You refuse to accept the title. You are still walking everywhere you go. While the Ferrari is yours because I paid for it, you reap none of the benefits of it, you do not even acknowledge the fact that it's yours. It sits in the garage unused.

[WSGAC]

Assuming that by 'universal salvation' you mean all people will be saved, irrespective of everything and anything they've done, then I'm at a loss to see how anything near this view is found in Romans 9-11... Or in Paul at all, for that matter. When God saves everyone, who cares about sin.

Who are *they* Paul references when he asks the question, "Did *they* stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?" ?

[WSGAC]

I bought you a Ferrari. You refuse to accept the title. You are still walking everywhere you go. While the Ferrari is yours because I paid for it, you reap none of the benefits of it, you do not even acknowledge the fact that it's yours. It sits in the garage unused.

If I have misunderstood Paul's argument, are you willing to show me where I went off track when presenting his argument?

[Athanasius]

Who are *they* Paul references when he asks the question, "Did *they* stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?" ?

I don't see how it matters (who 'they' are). Being 'within recovery' does not mean that they will be recovered; it simply means that it's possible.

[markedward]

Here are just a couple of traditional proof-texts that contradict universalism.

Matthew 25.46: "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

2 Thessalonians 1.9: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

I think these two examples will suffice for now, in order for me to ask my question: If everyone is saved, regardless of whether they accept Jesus as Lord, how can Scripture specifically make a difference between those who receive everlasting life (the saved) and everlasting punishment/destruction (the unsaved)? According to universalism, all people are saved, and none are unsaved. So how is it Scripture depicts people as being unsaved?

[Br. Barnabas]

I think there is a misunderstanding in the thread about the idea of universal salvation and how it might work. Most who have held to or hold to the idea of universal salvation (I hesitate to use the word doctrine); believe everyone will repent. Now we know not everyone repents before their death. So the idea of universal salvation believes, usually, that people will repent upon seeing the Triune God. So the idea is usually comes down to the belief people can repent after death. However, this repenting after death should no be confused with any doctrine of purgatory, which I don't really want to go into but the only people in purgatory are Christians. Some universalists believe that even Satan will repent and be let back into heaven. The idea of universalism relies on the abundant mercy of God, however, it can forget about the just nature of God.

As I have said before I am an optimistic universalist in that I hope that everyone will be saved but I know/believe that it most likely will not happen, but I hope it does.

[WSGAC]

Bible Quiz -

Without looking up the passage below, see if you know the word which goes in the blank:

The scripture passage for today is:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ _???_ will be made alive."

a) disciples
b) believers
c) some
d) the elect
e) very few
f) all
g) none

[RabbiKnife]

Bible Quiz -

Without looking up the passage below, see if you know the word which goes in the blank:

The scripture passage for today is:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ _???_ will be made alive."

a) disciples
b) believers
c) some
d) the elect
e) very few
f) all
g) none

Why would I do such a thing and chance either (a) guessing or remembering wrong or (b) taking the passage out of its context?

A pretty lousy way to build and teach doctrine.

[Br. Barnabas]

Bible Quiz -

Without looking up the passage below, see if you know the word which goes in the blank:

The scripture passage for today is:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ _???_ will be made alive."

a) disciples
b) believers
c) some
d) the elect
e) very few
f) all
g) none

Of course all will be made alive. All Christians should believe in the general resurrection, it is foretold in Revelation. The only problem is after the general resurrection comes the judgment and the casting of some into the lake of fire. Just because all are made alive does not mean all will stay alive or go on to everlasting communion with the Triune God. Some will not go on, they even after seeing the Triune God in all his glory will love themselves more or hate him. Those cannot be saved. Others might repent, and God might welcome them, we don't know, yet.