Christian Since I was little, but now starting to doubt.

[CanadianSlash]

Hello all. I don't post very much, but I decided I would post to say that I am starting to lose faith. I am 20 years old and have been Christian as long as I can remember. I recently stumbled across this article that pretty much sums up things that I have been feeling for a few years now:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...christian.html

I'm not really sure what I am after here. I think I am looking for an intellectual discussion about why that article is not correct. I am a very intellectual person and this is the sort of thing that speaks to me.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it. Maybe it is better suited for Christians Answer or something. I guess a moderator can move it if they decide..

[ProDeo]

From the link, which particular issue(s) bother you most?

[markdrums]

The thing I noticed from that article is that, the biggest "complaint" is a supposed "lack of evidence / proof". However, there is SOOOO much evidence of God's existence.
God is also not silent. He DID deliver his message personally to us in Jesus. (There are also plenty of non-biblical/secular historical writings that verify Jesus' existence, crucifixion & resurrection.)
His disciples were murdered for their faith & belief in him.... because it wasn't a "blind faith", but rather, a faith based on EVIDENCE.

Mr. Carrier also demands "proof" that believers are enjoying an eternal life? Well.... it's HIS responsibility to prove otherwise, if he wants to use that as a valid argument.

The whole article is really nothing more than a rant of Carrier's personal opinions, as well as "big words" to impress his former English teacher.
All of his claims are based on a total lack of understanding what Christianity actually is.

The proof & evidence of God is everywhere. Just the fact that Mr. Carrier himself is alive & breathing is one form of evidence.

The problem he has is this; he just chooses not to accept the evidence because of his close minded pride. Plain & simple.

Check out Lee Strobel's books, "The case for a creator" & "The Case for Christ". He had a very similar view & attitude as Richard Carrier in this article..... but after trying to disprove the Bible, he realized the deeper he was digging for proof against it, the more he discovered in support of it, and ended up becoming a Christian.

Also- one last note. ALL of us at times, go through periods of doubt & questioning. It's totally normal. But if you seek THE truth, you'll find it.

[Dani H]

You say you've been a Christian all your life ... what does being a Christian mean to you?

I'd suggest you read this thread and then get back with me on your thoughts about it:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...is-a-Christian

[Athanasius]

Hello all. I don't post very much, but I decided I would post to say that I am starting to lose faith. I am 20 years old and have been Christian as long as I can remember. I recently stumbled across this article that pretty much sums up things that I have been feeling for a few years now:

You have been a Christian, or you adopted your parents faith and the identity that came with it?

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...christian.html

I'm not really sure what I am after here. I think I am looking for an intellectual discussion about why that article is not correct. I am a very intellectual person and this is the sort of thing that speaks to me.

Well, the demand for irrefutable proof shows he's definitely no philosopher...

But as for you being a 'very intellectual person' and desiring an 'intellectual discussion,' why don't you begin? What has Dr. Carrier said that rings true; what has he said that you believe is wrong, if anything? In other words, explain what you're thinking (in your own words), with explicit reference to what Dr. Carrier has said.

[moonglow]

Hello all. I don't post very much, but I decided I would post to say that I am starting to lose faith. I am 20 years old and have been Christian as long as I can remember. I recently stumbled across this article that pretty much sums up things that I have been feeling for a few years now:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...christian.html

I'm not really sure what I am after here. I think I am looking for an intellectual discussion about why that article is not correct. I am a very intellectual person and this is the sort of thing that speaks to me.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it. Maybe it is better suited for Christians Answer or something. I guess a moderator can move it if they decide..

Hi CanadianSlash...I am glad you came to us with your concerns. Its one thing to be raised as a Christian..in a Christian home but something entirely different to embrace it for yourself. At some point in your life you need to make this decision for yourself...not solely because you were raised this way.

I am wondering if you have ever heard of Christian apologetics? It comes from this partial verse in the bible:

1 Peter 3:15

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

If you search Christian apologetics on the net I think you will find alot of your questions are answered actually. There is CARM for starters...and the Christian think tank which really goes indepth on things. But hopefully we can help too.

That article is pretty long but its pretty much what most atheist say. They want God in a bottle that they can exam and dissect on their own terms and won't accept how He does present Himself. Which is why they reject the answers we give them which come straight from the bible itself.

The bible has shown us that even when God presented Himself to the people and did mighty miracles such in the case with Moses saving the Hebrews from slavery...the Hebrews witnesses daily God's mighty miracle but yet as soon as Moses and the miracles of God were gone from their sight (when Mose went on the mountain to get the Ten Commandments) many of them made an idol...a golden calf and started worshiping it! And when His Son walked among them many still refused to believe and reject Him! So ..what does it take to convince people? What more can God do? He has done these things. He even spoke directly to the Hebrews who got so scared they begged Moses to have God only speak to him alone then Moses could tell them what God said.

Since man hasn't really changed in his nature..why should God expect us now to respond any differently then we did in the past to His direct speaking? To His direct in your face miracles? We wouldn't. The atheist would still find reasons to not believe. That is the sad fact of the matter. God tried it...and was still rejected by so many.

As far as evidence for the bible I guess this guy hasn't been watching the news! They are constantly discovering new places and evidence of the people, places and events that happened in the bible! Check out these links: Bible Archaeology:http://www.bib-arch.org/

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/

http://www.bible-history.com/subcat.php?id=4

As far as prophesies fulfilled in the bible..sure they were..there is tons of evidence for that from archaeology evidence to historical documents:

Fulfilled Prophecies and Other Evidence that the Bible is the Word of God
Matthew McGee

Hopefully, this article will help remove some of the barriers that hinder many from believing that the Bible is the true Word of God. Perhaps some Christians will have their faith strengthened by the contents discussed here. Maybe some will be able to share their faith more persuasively or confidently. My personal discovery of the points herein have certainly strengthened my faith in the past.

There are many Christians who would discount an article about evidence such as this, claiming, that "people just have to take a blind leap of faith." Certainly, without faith it is impossible to please God. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). But does it necessarily have to be a blind leap? Must one throw one's brains out the window before one can believe what the Bible says about Jesus Christ? The purpose here is to help reduce that blind leap to a confident step.

Why should we believe that the Bible is anything more than a book of fables? Does it have any true credibility that the holy books of other religions do not have? (read the fulfilled prophecies on that link)

And last but not least...you might be interested in watching this debate between Dawkins and Lennox about Dawkins book the God Delusion:

The God Delusion Debate (Dawkins-Lennox)

I hope this helps

God bless

[The Mighty Sword]

You're supposed to feel that way as a Christian, it's a testing of Faith and it could be your Spirit crying out for The Word.

[moonglow]

You're supposed to feel that way as a Christian, it's a testing of Faith and it could be your Spirit crying out for The Word.

Can you explain what you mean? I have never heard Christians are suppose to be on the verge of losing their faith and its a test...nor that we are suppose to feel that way. Where did you hear this from?

God bless

[CanadianSlash]

Athanasius:

No, I have not just adopted the identity of my parents. I've thought about it a lot myself and came to my own conclusions. On top of that, I've gone to bible studies for half of my life as well as going to several Christian summer camps, which were awesome.

Dani H:

To me, being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God, in addition to believing that he sent Jesus to the world to redeem everyone by dying on the cross. Beyond that, being a Christian also entails living as Jesus would.

That being said, since I was young since I was little, I have never had that "moment" that I always hear about when people accept Christ. But then again, not everybody has that moment, so it is likely that it's just a person inducing that effect on themselves.

Everyone else:

I am familiar with Christian Think Tank. I have been there a few times in the past seeking answers to my questions. However, after reading this article, some things just bother me. For example, if God really did create the universe with us in mind, why did he make the rest of the universe so hostile? As the article says, the universe is actually a perfect machine for creating black holes, not sustaining life. If every single planet were inhabitable like Earth, it would make it seem like the universe was created especially for us.

Another thing that bothers me is:

We know that Biblical documents have been tampered with and some writers copied from another writer and etc. Why wouldn't God protect those documents from being tampered with and damaged by the elements? Otherwise, the more time that has passed, the more easily they could be misconstrued and misinterpreted.

Of course, this is just a case of trying to compare what humans what do to what God would do, but if this is something that humans would do and would understand, why wouldn't God do it?

Stuff like that is what bothers me.

[Athanasius]

No, I have not just adopted the identity of my parents. I've thought about it a lot myself and came to my own conclusions. On top of that, I've gone to bible studies for half of my life as well as going to several Christian summer camps, which were awesome.

True to my avatar I must ask, so (what)? I know several (very intelligent) people, personally, who've attended bible studies ('half of [their] life") and more 'Christian summer camps' than you can count, yet they aren't believers. I also know several (also very intelligent) people, personally, who haven't attended bible studies or Christian summer camps, and they are quite strong and extremely knowledgeable in their faith, as well as in philosophy, science, theology, etc.

Bible studies and Christian summer camps speak little towards the standing of one's faith, though I'm glad you've thought about things yourself, and have come to your own conclusions. That is what you're doing right now, after all.

However, after reading this article, some things just bother me. For example, if God really did create the universe with us in mind, why did he make the rest of the universe so hostile? As the article says, the universe is actually a perfect machine for creating black holes, not sustaining life. If every single planet were inhabitable like Earth, it would make it seem like the universe was created especially for us.

And yet the universe sustains life: you are familiar with the doctrine of the Fall, are you not? In terms of habitation, why do you believe every planet must be habitable for the universe to be 'friendly'? What about black holes makes the universe hostile?

We know that Biblical documents have been tampered with and some writers copied from another writer and etc. Why wouldn't God protect those documents from being tampered with and damaged by the elements? Otherwise, the more time that has passed, the more easily they could be misconstrued and misinterpreted.

Alright, like what?

Of course, this is just a case of trying to compare what humans what do to what God would do, but if this is something that humans would do and would understand, why wouldn't God do it?

Because we aren't God, and God isn't us.

[ImmenseDisciple]

Hi CS, thanks for sharing how you're feeling. Glad you're here

I remember my days as an atheist as if they were yesterday - I was no fence sitter, I can tell you that! I would engage in debates with the few Christians I knew, occasionally using similar lines of argument to the author in the article... But really, none of them were why I didn't believe in God - and honestly, I have to say that I believe that any hard-line atheist, such as the author here, is just the same. The reason not to believe in God is not simply because you can pick little holes in the Christian worldview, or because you can cobble together a roughly cohesive intellectual argument against Him - it's because to "naturalism" (using the word in the same sense in which the author does), the very concept of God is staggeringly, overwhelmingly, obscenely ludicrous. It's as simple as that.

If, as the author, you only consider it reasonable to believe exclusively in the natural world, that which the physical sciences can observe, analyse, and attempt to explain, then for someone to suggest that not only are you wrong in that every human being has a supernatural "spirit" and "soul", but further, that there is an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful uncreated Father - before, behind and above and beyond all of creation - this is a fairytale of epic proportions! It is no mistake that the Bible reminds us time and time again that the world will decry us as fools for believing as we do. Understand this - the naturalist worldview, held by the author and every well-known atheist, can never come remotely close to conceding that there even might be a God. Were his article entirely honest, it would read simply:

Why I Am Not a Christian (2006)

1. The notion that anything supernatural exists is stupid.
2. God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, the eternal soul and more-or-less everything else in Christianity amount to the most astonishingly involved and elaborate supernatural notions you could possibly devise.
3. It's really, really, really stupid to be a Christian.

Fin

But, of course, that's not a particularly satisfying argument for an intellectual to make! So, there's all these other arguments tramped out, but here's the point -they're nothing more than smoke and mirrors, a grandiose and impressively wrapped giftbox to disguise the fact that at heart all that really informs this worldview is nothing more than "Because it's silly." Maybe you can't see it like that - but having walked that path myself, I'll only ever be able to view it that way...

So, the preamble over with, on to the actual arguments, then. I shall paraphrase them slightly;

1 - God doesn't behave as I expect

So many arguments against Christianity amount to this, "If God exists, how come he doesn't do this? Why are things as they are?" If we aren't starting from the viewpoint that God is a joke, and instead see Him as a being of perfect intelligence whose perspective lends him an absolute awareness of everything ever and omnipotence lends Him the ability to behave and respond perfectly to all that has ever been, we wouldn't dream of saying "If I were Him, I'd do things better!" An infant might insist it make more sense for his father to drive at 200 miles an hour, or that his bed should be made out of cookies, or any of myriad other fanciful notions - not one of which is grounds for him denouncing his father a fool. Existence is unfathomable and God's actions often inscrutable because we fall astronomically short of being able to comprehend either. Accepting this in humility and with respect for God should really be the starting point - from which God is desperate to have you bring to Him all those infinite issues and queries you have, about life, the universe and everything!

2 - You can't prove it!
This is a misleading argument, because whenever it's used it encourages the reader to think that there's no evidence pointing to Christianity as Truth - when in fact, all it ever demonstrates is that the precise evidence they have determined essential is not available in the exact manner and means they demand. This attitude can be taken about literally ANYTHING. It proves nothing...

As it is, there really is a weight of evidence that supports the argument for Christ, and I'd also like to encourage you to read the highly readable and worthwhile books "The Case for a Creator" and "The Case for Christ" as recommended by Mark.

Way more important than that, though - please, pray about this, talk to God relentlessly, don't give your time to reading things which reinforce the views about Christianity which this world is desperate to drum into you - spend as much time as you can with Him, and with those who know Him.

I'll be praying for you too.

[Dani H]

Apologies about the post ping-pong. It's been determined that this thread can stay in GiC due to the OP's self-professed Christian status.

Thank you. Carry on.

[moonglow]

[CanadianSlash..what did you think about the other links I gave you? Did you check them out? Do you still feel there is lack of evidence for the bible which of course would mean if its true...there is a God.

Athanasius:

No, I have not just adopted the identity of my parents. I've thought about it a lot myself and came to my own conclusions. On top of that, I've gone to bible studies for half of my life as well as going to several Christian summer camps, which were awesome.

Dani H:

To me, being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God, in addition to believing that he sent Jesus to the world to redeem everyone by dying on the cross. Beyond that, being a Christian also entails living as Jesus would.

That being said, since I was young since I was little, I have never had that "moment" that I always hear about when people accept Christ. But then again, not everybody has that moment, so it is likely that it's just a person inducing that effect on themselves.

I don't know about this last statement..I have never heard of any Christian that didn't have that moment actually. We have a testimony form on here just for that actually. I grew up in a Christian home also...at least until my dad died when I was 11. By then I had many verses memorized and had been baptized and I did love our Lord Jesus with all my heart...but...I don't think I had been born again. After my dad died our church going days stopped for a number of years...then it was to different churches and as a teenager I didn't have that Godly guidance so I followed the world ideas of what was good or bad. I really believed I was a good person because I hadn't done certain things.

I hadn't robbed banks, killed anyone, abused any..you know those really bad things. I remember sitting in a Methodist church having to say a prayer out loud with everyone else reading from their book where it said I was a sinner. I remember clearly resenting that prayer. I didn't think I was any sinner..I was a 'good person'. I truly didn't get it.

So I followed the world for the rest of my teen and adult life though I always believed in God and Jesus and all of that. I was a luke warm Christian at best. My defining moment came when I was standing in my mom's kitchen having to go back home after a failed marriage and realizing I had yet again messed up my life. Only this time I took a little child with me. My son. It was no longer just me messing up and making bad choices and having to start all over again and only I was affected...this time an innocent toddler was affected too. I was so disgusted with myself I just threw down the teal towel I had been using to clean up dishes and told God He could have my life. He could run it cause I was done with it. Fed up with myself. That was the first time I truly surrended to Him and completely in all areas of my life. Before I thought I could run parts of my life 'my way'.

I had been back in church for awhile by then too and doing bible study and singing in the choir. I had even gotten baptized again. But it was what I did in the kitchen that changed everything. That is when I was born again. Then everything changed. Some sins I was still doing...the desire to do those things just left me. And the bible...it started making sense to me! Before it was just so difficult for me to understand though I had read it through before. Things fell into place. Now I couldn't tell you the exact date like many can or anything like that, but it was certainly a defining moment for me. Now I can reach back to the things I learned that my dad taught me through the bible and truly appreciated that. Its not just head knowledge anymore..its in the heart.

It also doesn't mean I stopped thinking either. The author refers to himself and other atheists of course as 'free thinkers' and are under this illusion we Christians have stopped thinking..and blindly accept what we are told or read in the bible. This is not what the bible teaches though. It tells us to use our God given minds!

Why are Christians So Stupid? - Does the Bible Teach Blind Faith?
by Rich Deem
Introduction

Many skeptics think that Christianity is for people who do not want to think. Christians are often characterized as people who believe whatever they are told by the church. Faith is thought of as something that one believes blindly - with no supporting evidence. However, this viewpoint does not represent biblical Christianity. In contrast, to what many skeptics believe, the Bible challenges its readers to test it and come to a reasonable conclusion. There are those Christians who believe blindly, and certain cults (such as Mormonism) teach that truth can be known through prayer. These ideas are heretical to biblical Christianity and often lead to deception, making such individuals susceptible to conversion by the cults.


Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

What does the Bible teach?

Contrary to what many non-believers think, the Bible does not teach blind faith. In fact, the Bible actually tells believers to test everything.1 read the rest at the link.

The sad thing is all atheist do is repeat each other over and over and over again. Nothing they say surprises us because we have heard it all before. They come on the board and say the exact same things..no original ideas or thoughts at all..they just reword it a little..barely in some cases...and they think they are being clever.. How is that thinking and using your mind when you just repeat what others have said? Then when its refuted you can't respond..at least not with out going to an atheist website and posting for help.

Everyone else:

I am familiar with Christian Think Tank. I have been there a few times in the past seeking answers to my questions. However, after reading this article, some things just bother me. For example, if God really did create the universe with us in mind, why did he make the rest of the universe so hostile? As the article says, the universe is actually a perfect machine for creating black holes, not sustaining life. If every single planet were inhabitable like Earth, it would make it seem like the universe was created especially for us.

I guess you haven't been keeping up with the news..seems like every week they have 'discovered' another 'earth like planet'.

More than 100 'Earth-like' planets discovered in past few weeks


More than 100 planets that are a similar size to Earth have been discovered in just the past few weeks, it has been announced.

The discovery was made by the space telescope Kepler which has been scanning the skies for planets that are orbiting stars since it was launched in January last year.

The breakthrough raises the tantalising prospect that we may not be alone in the Universe.

Scientists now believe that there are likely to be around 100 million planets in the Milky Way that harbour exactly the right conditions for life.

And they expect to be able to identify around 60 of these habitable Earth-like planets within the next two years. read the rest at the link.

I personally think they won't find any that life can live on and the reason for that is because we ARE special...earth made just for us. BTW I think the universe is full of beauty! Go check out the Hubble website some time: http://hubblesite.org/

Another thing that bothers me is:

We know that Biblical documents have been tampered with and some writers copied from another writer and etc. Why wouldn't God protect those documents from being tampered with and damaged by the elements? Otherwise, the more time that has passed, the more easily they could be misconstrued and misinterpreted.

The discovery of the Dead Seas Scrolls in the 1940's though proves the bible is indeed correct and hasn't been tampered with. The Scrolls cover the Old Testament and are 2000 thousands years old. I know this is a common idea spread around atheist circles..I think they just assume it and here is a reason why:

Hasn't the Bible been rewritten so many times that we can't trust it anymore?

This is a common misconception. Some people think that the Bible was written in one language, translated to another language, then translated into yet another and so on until it was finally translated into the English. The complaint is that since it was rewritten so many times in different languages throughout history, it must have become corrupted . The "telephone" analogy is often used as an illustration. It goes like this. One person tells another person a sentence who then tells another person, who tells yet another, and so on and so on until the last person hears a sentence that has little or nothing to do with the original one. The only problem with this analogy is that it doesn't fit the Bible at all.

The fact is that the Bible has not been rewritten. Take the New Testament, for example. The disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament in Greek and though we do not have the original documents, we do have around 6,000 copies of the Greek manuscripts that were made very close to the time of the originals. These various manuscripts, or copies, agree with each other to almost 100 percent accuracy. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. That means that there is only 1/2 of 1% of of all the copies that do not agree with each other perfectly. But, if you take that 1/2 of 1% and examine it, you find that the majority of the "problems" are nothing more than spelling errors and very minor word alterations. For example, instead of saying Jesus, a variation might be "Jesus Christ." So the actual amount of textual variation of any concern is extremely low. Therefore, we can say that we have a remarkably accurate compilation of the original documents. read the rest at the link and see the chart there too.

Of course, this is just a case of trying to compare what humans what do to what God would do, but if this is something that humans would do and would understand, why wouldn't God do it?

Stuff like that is what bothers me.

I really didn't understand your last statement there I am afraid.

I hope this all helps though.

God bless

[ProDeo]

Hi CS,

However, after reading this article, some things just bother me. For example, if God really did create the universe with us in mind, why did he make the rest of the universe so hostile? As the article says, the universe is actually a perfect machine for creating black holes, not sustaining life. If every single planet were inhabitable like Earth, it would make it seem like the universe was created especially for us.

It's a matter of seeing things. Where you put question marks I look in awe.

Perhaps an article of mine I once wrote might help to see things from a different angle.

[brakelite]

CanadianSlash, hi.
God is not silent, He promises
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:

Put Him to the test. Today.