Democrats flee Wisconsin to avoid vote, police searching...

[teddyv]

Don't think it's significant in this case, as there are plenty of non-British influenced countries that are also part of "western civ".

Fair enough, but you can't dismiss the British influence from the American situation though. Maybe a better catch-all is the European influence, particularly from the Enlightenment and the influence of modernity.

[Vhayes]

Is there a possibility there are things in this bill that are not being discussed? Seriously?

[RabbiKnife]

I haven't read the text of the bill, but as public as this thing is, I doubt it.

All I've heard is primarily increased portion of health care payment by employee and contribution by employee to pension plan. Also eliminated health care and pension from collective bargaining table, leaving job details, salary, etc. still subject to collective bargaining.

[RevLogos]

Just a repost to clarify an issue.

Some dear readers inferred from this post that the undersigned poster was insulting ALL Democrats. Such was not the intent. If I wanted to insult ALL Democrats, I would have been very clear.

So, in the words of the Chief Democrat, President of the United States of America BaraK Hussein Obama, "Let me be clear..."

The only Democrats to which the foregoing post "COWARDS USUALLY ARE" was directed was specifically and expressly limited to the 14 treasonous, oath breaking, yellow bellied, chicken livered, skunk tailed, gutless, spineless, brainless elected Senators of the Great State of Wisconsin that have forsaken their duty and refused to represent their constituents by fleeing the jurisdiction.

They should be impeached.

Hope that clears this little misunderstanding up.

The anti-democracy pathology seems to be spreading. You might have to add another 37 to the list from Indiana, who bailed out to another state to avoid a right-to-work vote.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...t|IndyStar.com

As more and more states attempt to cut back on entitlements, it could get much worse.

[RabbiKnife]

Apparently the only place that having democratically elected representatives any more is Egypt, Iran, Tunisian, and Libya.

[RevLogos]

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
you ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

Don’t you know its gonna be all right, all right, all right, all right….

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[Fenris]

This is pretty clever.

State senators who miss two or more session days will no longer get paid through direct deposit. They’ll have to pick up their checks in person on the Senate floor during a session.

The new rule is aimed at forcing the return of 14 Senate Democrats who have been hiding in Illinois since Thursday. They fled the state to stall a vote on an anti-union bill, and have threatened to stay away until Republican Gov. Scott Walker agrees to compromise.

Tuesday’s vote was along party lines. The three Republicans on the Committee on Senate Organization voted for it and the two absent Democrats cast their no votes by fax.

The measure applies to paychecks, per diem checks, and any expense reimbursements. The absent senators will have to collect their checks from the Senate majority leader.

[Fenris]

The same thing just happened in Indiana. Apparently the Democrats would rather flee the state than deal with serious issues of bloated budgets and entitlement reform.

[EarlyCall]

The same thing just happened in Indiana. Apparently the Democrats would rather flee the state than deal with serious issues of bloated budgets and entitlement reform.

Just a couple thoughts. I heard twice today that for every dollar a teacher puts of their own money toward their retirement fund, the government adds another $57. I'm referring to Wisconsin of course. Seems fair enough, I suppose, if you are one of those teachers.

As for the dems fleeing the state of Indiana... I think it only a matter of time before we have democrat members of state congress in every state - like we do now - just not their own.

[amazzin]

Seems to me that a certain segment of the political spectrum has a lot of explaining to do. I think it is quite childish to do what they did. The issue for me is more one of who the unions have bought with their money and votes then it is about hiding in a motel cowarding

[NHL Fever]

Really? What part of Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian culture espouses free public education?

That's different than western culture. But the last 100 years or so years of western culture has been very favorable to public education. And the largest leaps in prosperity came after widespread public programs for things like basic literacy and math. There's nothing inherent about greco-roman-judeo-christian culture that mandates success, in fact two of those collapsed on themselves. The morality and ethic Judeo-Christian tradition is certainly part of the success, but it's that moral sense that directly led to expanding on concepts like equality and the public good.

I'm not trying to say your education system is good, I know it's bad. But its bad because you can't make people learn who don't want to learn while giving teachers no authority.

[Scruffy Kid]

The Democrats appear to be better at fighting dirty.

The Democrats appear to be better at fighting dirty.

Cowards usually are.

the cockroaches always scurry about and hide when the lights come on.

the cockroaches always scurry about and hide when the lights come on.

wow that was nasty

After the harsh and unChristian comments in posts #8 and #9 I cannot bear to read the rest of the thread.

Is this the way we talk in a Christian group? We characterize those who hold different political views than ours (in this case Democrats) as cowards and cockroaches? As Christians, we should avoid such insulting and aggressive and self-righteous-sounding ways of talking, and be ashamed of ourselves when we fall into these sins.

However, I speak up because of the general tenor of the board, and not just the comments of these individuals, is involved. At Bibleforums it's usually OK to insult people whom the majority of the board, or of political posters, disagrees with politically. If someone is a "Democrat", or "Liberal" -- and often if they belong to other groups the poster doesn't happen to like and whose views are not that popular at Bibleforums -- then it's OK to call them "cowards" and "cockroaches" and other insulting terms. No one -- except perhaps someone whose views get impugned -- will protest.

For us as a board community to tolerate this kind of unChristian conduct is unacceptable.

SOOOO ... for many folk here -- not just those who utter insults, but those who tolerate unpopular groups and people who belong to them -- the joy or "humor" of insulting people in a minority here (e.g. Democrats) -- is far more important than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By our indulgence of such speech, and toleration of it, we teach numerous onlookers, as well as participants, that Christians are the kind of folk who go around insulting those who they disagree with politically. We teach them, and ourselves, that it's just fine to insult and thus pick on and bully those whose views are unpopular. Is this Biblical? Will it win people from prejudices they may have against the Gospel, and cause them to consider the Gospel on its merits?

Would you like to try to convince someone who comes here possibly looking for Christ, but happens to be a Democrat, and reads this kind of insulting post, that Christ really is for all people, and that Christians aren't politically right-wing bigots, after they read this kind of thread in which it's clear that the board full of allegedly Bible-believing Christians goes around insulting those who don't agree with their politics? And in fact, this disgusts drives away not only those who are Democrats, but all who are fairminded, and detest bullying.

Do we want to be a crowd who insult those we disagree with, or who tolerate others hurling insults? Why don't we read what the BIBLE has to say about how we talk to others, and until you have mastered these simple principles STOP POSTING!? Going around insulting others while proclaiming yourself to be Christian, or Bible-believing, is forbidden by Scripture; and it drives people away from Christ. It's rude and childish, self-indulgent, and doesn't even work to advance your political principles, whatever they may be, and whether they be bad or good.

This kind of insulting post does more to drive people away from Christianity than all someone who talks this way may do by way of evangelism can help. If you want to make a polite political argument, against the Wisconsin Demos, even a sarcastic one if need be, by all means do so. But don't go around calling people "cowards" and "cockroaches". And don't stand silent (or continue after such insults have been made by making more polite criticisms of the Wisconsin Demos) while others are bullying those they don't agree with politically by calling them rude names.

Whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. (Jesus speaking in Matt. 5:22)

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. (Titus 2:7-8)

Remind people to ... speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.(Titus 3:1-2)

Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For

"Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it."

(I Peter 3:8-11)

In your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.(I Peter 3:15-16)

We could fill many pages with quotes from OT and NT warning us not to speak ill of others, or insult them, to treat others with respect and kindness, to avoid senseless quarrels or getting entangled in secondary matters to the detriment of the gospel, and to avoid party-spirit.

This kind of unbiblical picking on others -- made more manifest by the use of nasty insults -- is completely unacceptable.

[Firefighter]

Isn't this kind of like those people that watch every depraved, violent, and lust filled show on TV just so they can report to everybody else how bad it is? I mean REALLY... as of this minute, there are 87,073 other threads on this forum. Surely you can find one that does not offend your delicate palette. I avoid threads all the time. Sometimes I avoid entire forums either because of a weakness in myself or others. If I don't like what I am watching on TV, I always have the option of turning the channel.

"Click."

[Liquid Tension]

After the harsh and unChristian comments in posts #8 and #9 I cannot bear to read the rest of the thread.

Is this the way we talk in a Christian group? We characterize those who hold different political views than ours (in this case Democrats) as cowards and cockroaches? As Christians, we should avoid such insulting and aggressive and self-righteous-sounding ways of talking, and be ashamed of ourselves when we fall into these sins.

However, I speak up because of the general tenor of the board, and not just the comments of these individuals, is involved. At Bibleforums it's usually OK to insult people whom the majority of the board, or of political posters, disagrees with politically. If someone is a "Democrat", or "Liberal" -- and often if they belong to other groups the poster doesn't happen to like and whose views are not that popular at Bibleforums -- then it's OK to call them "cowards" and "cockroaches" and other insulting terms. No one -- except perhaps someone whose views get impugned -- will protest.

For us as a board community to tolerate this kind of unChristian conduct is unacceptable.

SOOOO ... for many folk here -- not just those who utter insults, but those who tolerate unpopular groups and people who belong to them -- the joy or "humor" of insulting people in a minority here (e.g. Democrats) -- is far more important than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By our indulgence of such speech, and toleration of it, we teach numerous onlookers, as well as participants, that Christians are the kind of folk who go around insulting those who they disagree with politically. We teach them, and ourselves, that it's just fine to insult and thus pick on and bully those whose views are unpopular. Is this Biblical? Will it win people from prejudices they may have against the Gospel, and cause them to consider the Gospel on its merits?

Would you like to try to convince someone who comes here possibly looking for Christ, but happens to be a Democrat, and reads this kind of insulting post, that Christ really is for all people, and that Christians aren't politically right-wing bigots, after they read this kind of thread in which it's clear that the board full of allegedly Bible-believing Christians goes around insulting those who don't agree with their politics? And in fact, this disgusts drives away not only those who are Democrats, but all who are fairminded, and detest bullying.

Do we want to be a crowd who insult those we disagree with, or who tolerate others hurling insults? Why don't we read what the BIBLE has to say about how we talk to others, and until you have mastered these simple principles STOP POSTING!? Going around insulting others while proclaiming yourself to be Christian, or Bible-believing, is forbidden by Scripture; and it drives people away from Christ. It's rude and childish, self-indulgent, and doesn't even work to advance your political principles, whatever they may be, and whether they be bad or good.

This kind of insulting post does more to drive people away from Christianity than all someone who talks this way may do by way of evangelism can help. If you want to make a polite political argument, against the Wisconsin Demos, even a sarcastic one if need be, by all means do so. But don't go around calling people "cowards" and "cockroaches". And don't stand silent (or continue after such insults have been made by making more polite criticisms of the Wisconsin Demos) while others are bullying those they don't agree with politically by calling them rude names.

Whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. (Jesus speaking in Matt. 5:22)

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. (Titus 2:7-8)

Remind people to ... speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.(Titus 3:1-2)

Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For

"Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it."

(I Peter 3:8-11)

In your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.(I Peter 3:15-16)

We could fill many pages with quotes from OT and NT warning us not to speak ill of others, or insult them, to treat others with respect and kindness, to avoid senseless quarrels or getting entangled in secondary matters to the detriment of the gospel, and to avoid party-spirit.

This kind of unbiblical picking on others -- made more manifest by the use of nasty insults -- is completely unacceptable.

I agree with much of what you've said here. With that being said, what would you call the actions of the 14 Wisconsin Dems who have gone AWOL?? Just curious.

[Vhayes]

I spent part of the afternoon reading various articles/blogs/bloviations about this. One thing that stuck out was this paragraph below - at least by way of explanation as to the "why" of the walk out.

This is a sweeping change in the landscape of labor-management relations, yet Walker has allowed little room for discussion. He announced the plan on Friday, Feb. 11 and wanted a legislative vote by the following Thursday, Feb. 17. Only a walkout by Senate Democrats prevented this from happening. Given how huge a change this is, you might have thought there would have been a desire for some study and discussion of the legislation's impact.

I'm also looking for (found it earlier and now can't - doh) for the bill itself. There are so many different, "He said, she said"s that it's hard to know what's real and what is hot air. Or at least fanned air.
V