Democrats flee Wisconsin to avoid vote, police searching...

[Fenris]

If this was aimed at me

It was not aimed at you, dear. It's not aimed at anyone here. It's aimed at those people in this country who have been calling for more "civility" in public discourse, but (apparently) only when people are being critical of Democrats.

[Fenris]

1. Will the law enforcement and fire personnel be required to make those changes as well? If not, why not?

Unknown. Law enforcement/firefighters and such are generally considered "more" essential, whatever that means.

[RabbiKnife]

The Governor has said that pretty clearly.

The bill as it got written was incremental, trying to compromise a little. Public service unions do not care. They only want what is good for them, and they could care less about the economy or the ability of people to pay the taxes to support their salaries.

Killing the golden goose instead of getting an egg a day. Eating your seed corn. Stupid.

We've been playing this game for 50+ years, and the pain to keep out of bankruptcy is going to be extreme for everyone, especially those in the public sector that have gotten used to making more money, having more time off, better benefits, and higher retirement benefits than the private sector.

[RabbiKnife]

He's pro-union. Maybe he IS a teacher and his dad or brother-in-law is a teamster. The signs are just wrong no matter what. Equating the Governor of a State to Hitler is beyond ignorant.

Nope. I'd bet your paycheck he's not a teacher. The Democratic National Committee has admitted to busing in busloads of Teamsters and AFL-CIO members to Wisconsin to fuel the protests.

[Vhayes]

Unknown. Law enforcement/firefighters and such are generally considered "more" essential, whatever that means.

And that was the part that was causing me "head hassles".

I DO understand they are critical, vital even, because they are the first responders to say life, limb and property. But can there be anything more essential than a childs education?

We, as a nation, complain about mediocre teachers but then place a much higher value on very narrow vocations. It makes no sense to me. Of COURSE you get mediocrity if that's all you're willing to pay for. You don't drive a Mercedes if you make Toyota payments.

[Vhayes]

Nope. I'd bet your paycheck he's not a teacher. The Democratic National Committee has admitted to busing in busloads of Teamsters and AFL-CIO members to Wisconsin to fuel the protests.

In my opinion, the DNC has NO business being involved in any of that. Period.

[RabbiKnife]

In my opinion, the DNC has NO business being involved in any of that. Period.

Welcome Civility In Public Discourse(TM), DNC style.

[Fenris]

And that was the part that was causing me "head hassles".

I DO understand they are critical, vital even, because they are the first responders to say life, limb and property. But can there be anything more essential than a childs education?

I see a big difference. I think I'm entitled to walk down the street and feel safe. I'm not entitled to a public school education. FWIW I pay school taxes and tuition for my kids private school.

[Vhayes]

Both sides need to get slapped up along side of their heads.

I read this today in the New York Times and was in shock.

PHOENIX — A Tucson firefighter refused to respond to the Jan. 8 shooting rampage that wounded Representative Gabrielle Giffords because of political differences with his crew, delaying his unit’s arrival at the scene, according to internal department records.

Firefighter Mark Ekstrum’s unit was not a first responder and was called after the last of the 13 wounded gunshot victims had been transported from the scene by paramedics, fire officials told The Arizona Daily Star, which obtained the memorandums. Still, Firefighter Ekstrum’s refusal to respond because of what he called “political bantering” caused confusion as the department dealt with the shooting, which left six dead, officials said.

Firefighter Ekstrum, a 28-year veteran, retired after the rampage as department officials considered disciplinary action. A memorandum from a supervisor, Capt. Ben Williams, said that Firefighter Ekstrum “mentioned something about ‘political bantering’ and he did not want to be part of it.” Exactly what the disagreement was over remained unclear. In a statement, Mr. Ekstrum later said he had voted for Ms. Giffords, a Democrat, and did not respond because he was distraught over the shootings.

In the memo, Captain Williams said the firefighter had said “there were underlying issues regarding the call that brought up a lot of anger and made him ineffective as a firefighter.”

Where does the partisanship stop and all of us be Americans again?

[Vhayes]

I see a big difference. I think I'm entitled to walk down the street and feel safe. I'm not entitled to a public school education. FWIW I pay school taxes and tuition for my kids private school.

Quite frankly, most people simply cannot afford to do that.

We need school reform. In my city, there are far too many in administration and too few teachers.

[tango]

And that was the part that was causing me "head hassles".

I DO understand they are critical, vital even, because they are the first responders to say life, limb and property. But can there be anything more essential than a childs education?

We, as a nation, complain about mediocre teachers but then place a much higher value on very narrow vocations. It makes no sense to me. Of COURSE you get mediocrity if that's all you're willing to pay for. You don't drive a Mercedes if you make Toyota payments.

This is an issue that I don't think can be resolved simply by matters of more money or less money.

If teachers' pay is low then only those who can afford to work for low pay can take the job, no matter how good they might be at teaching.

If the pay is too high then those who are bad teachers are attracted by the package on offer, and end up more interested in protecting their own position than educating the children in their care.

If the pay is high then it must be made easy to remove the staff who are not performing without endless administration or huge payoffs (and this applies to anyone in any industry, not just teachers). At the same time those who are working need to be protected from bullying bosses who want them out of the way so they can impose their own agendas.

Ultimately the goal has to be to attract and retain quality staff while having the ability to remove staff who aren't up to scratch while also protecting staff who are performing. From my side of the water it seems unions are more interested in protecting the jobs of individuals who aren't up to scratch than in making sure the employer stays in business. The "us and them" standoff between workers and managers is unhelpful regardless of which side of the divide it is seen.

[Vhayes]

The "us and them" standoff between workers and managers is unhelpful regardless of which side of the divide it is seen.

This pretty much sums up the state of our nation to me. In ALL things - not just politics but all areas. It makes me NUTS!

[tango]

This pretty much sums up the state of our nation to me. In ALL things - not just politics but all areas. It makes me NUTS!

Just shows that the "divide and conquer" approach works as well now as it always did.

[Fenris]

Quite frankly, most people simply cannot afford to do that.

You make choices in life. For what I pay in private school tuition, I could get a new car. Every year.

[Vhayes]

You make choices in life. For what I pay in private school tuition, I could get a new car. Every year.

You aren't quite understanding what I am saying. Many of the people I know cannot afford either a new car (or a used car) - they could not EAT if they paid tuition.

That isn't really a choice.