Gospel... moved from the law and eternal life thread

[dagar]

No that isn't what it says and you can't even twist it otherwise... all you can do is ignore what it says. If those sins are contrary to sound doctrine and the gospel... those things are mentioned in the gospel don't you think? You take out verse 9 and 10... you can make up the in between. But when the folks see what is actually in between verses 8 and 11... you're look at what it says is quite needing a lot of help.

What? You want it all?

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Makes no difference it doesn't change the meaning. I took those verse out for your sake, so you could see the two verse in between do not mean what you think they do. I'm not big on commentaries but for many they give assurance in ones interpretation, so go read a few because you are way off here.

It does not, I repeat, does not say the listed sins are contrary to the gospel it says "to sound doctrine". Paul mentions sound doctrine in many places and never calls it the gospel. He just doesn't. No, the gospel mentioned previously in 1Cor 15 -death, burial, resurrection does not have a list of do's for justification, sanctification, redemption. It simply does not.

[ProjectPeter]

What? You want it all?

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Makes no difference it doesn't change the meaning. I took those verse out for your sake, so you could see the two verse in between do not mean what you think they do. I'm not big on commentaries but for many they give assurance in ones interpretation, so go read a few because you are way off here.

It does not, I repeat, does not say the listed sins are contrary to the gospel it says "to sound doctrine". Paul mentions sound doctrine in many places and never calls it the gospel. He just doesn't. No, the gospel mentioned previously in 1Cor 15 -death, burial, resurrection does not have a list of do's for justification, sanctification, redemption. It simply does not.

Uh..... I don't care what commentaries say. Never much have and not likely going to start today or tomorrow. It says what it says. It certainly does say those things contrary to sound doctrine WHICH IS ACCORDING TO the gospel. Can't even believe you're trying this argument! Most folks just have sense enough to just holler and kick and say wrong without commenting or they just ignore the post. Arguing what you are is futile for simple basic reading skills as well as intellectual honesty!

[dagar]

Okay... my turn now. Knock it off. Enough being silly. I'll take a lot of junk from folks but don't sling it to the other mods and admin in here. Clear?

Look, I'm just shooting straight like, with you. If you are ok with it then let the others know and we'll have no problems. I do prefer a bit more respectful discussion though. Not really for myself....I can handle anything, but many just simply won't read the kind of stuff you and I shell out, and I think this is an interesting and important topic all can benefit from. Your call.

[dagar]

Uh..... I don't care what commentaries say. Never much have and not likely going to start today or tomorrow. It says what it says. It certainly does say those things contrary to sound doctrine WHICH IS ACCORDING TO the gospel. Can't even believe you're trying this argument! Most folks just have sense enough to just holler and kick and say wrong without commenting or they just ignore the post. Arguing what you are is futile for simple basic reading skills as well as intellectual honesty!

More nastyness! Sad.

Well, most people understand

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
..............
........
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

vs 9-10 are about how the law is used lawfully with the gospel. That's how it reads. The fact that you turn vs 9-10 into 11 shows you either have an agenda or you simply misunderstand the passage.

[ProjectPeter]

More nastyness! Sad.

Well, most people understand

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
..............
........
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

vs 9-10 are about how the law is used lawfully with the gospel. That's how it reads. The fact that you turn vs 9-10 into 11 shows you either have an agenda or you simply misunderstand the passage.

How in the world is that nasty?

And no... they don't understand if they are "understanding" it to read as you do. Those things are contrary to the gospel because they are contrary to the sound doctrine of the gospel. That is clearly what the text says. Again... intentionally taking out the meat of the text might work for you... but that isn't sound doctrine either.

[dagar]

How in the world is that nasty?

"Most folks just have sense enough"
"simple basic reading skills as well as intellectual honesty"

[ProjectPeter]

"Most folks just have sense enough"
"simple basic reading skills as well as intellectual honesty"

Goodness... if that is nasty then you need to not talk much to folk you disagree with! That ought not bother grown up folk... I mean seriously?

The way you are reading that is totally defying basic reading skills or intellectual honesty. Those are the only two options.... even my young guys at church understand that passage to say what it says.

[dagar]

Goodness... if that is nasty then you need to not talk much to folk you disagree with! That ought not bother grown up folk... I mean seriously?

See. Now I'm not grown up. You're not helping yourself here. Another user already agreed and from the looks of things it isn't a 'problem user'. The Administration should evaluate it seems.

The way you are reading that is totally defying basic reading skills or intellectual honesty. Those are the only two options.... even my young guys at church understand that passage to say what it says.

No. They understand it to say what a like minded same spirit individual thinks it says. Means nothing really if the mind and spirit at work is wrong.

[ProjectPeter]

See. Now I'm not grown up. You're not helping yourself here. Another user already agreed and from the looks of things it isn't a 'problem user'. The Administration should evaluate it seems.

I've been here for quite a few years now and most of that time as Admin. I've told more than one person the same during that time. If stuff like this is offensive to you then the Internet is a place you ought not be because simple discussion like this among adults is going to drive you nuts because you're going to stay offended. Your reading of it defies basic reading skills and or void of intellectual honesty. Simple as that really.

No. They understand it to say what a like minded same spirit individual thinks it says. Means nothing really if the mind and spirit at work is wrong.

It means what it says. Those things and things like it are contrary to sound doctrine and the gospel. The gospel is much more than just Jesus lived, died, and lives again. That is certainly of first importance because without it you haven't even started. But it goes much further. A simple reading of the book of Acts shows that just as clearly.

[RollTide21]

Goodness... if that is nasty then you need to not talk much to folk you disagree with! That ought not bother grown up folk... I mean seriously?

The way you are reading that is totally defying basic reading skills or intellectual honesty. Those are the only two options.... even my young guys at church understand that passage to say what it says.

Well, in fairness PP, I didn't see where dagar's responses were any different in tone than your own, yet he is the one who was chastised to watch out.

Carry on...

[Butch5]

Yes, that is essentially my point. If someone were to ask me point blank, "What is THE one thing that destroys the works of the Devil? I would have to say that THE one thing that destroys the works of the Devil is the granting of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit works with each individual to overcome the devil's lies. Of course, the granting of the Holy Spirit wouldn't have been possible without the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, unless I go away, the comforter can't come. But the works of the devil are destroyed in real time through a process that progresses through history, taking place individually on a case-by-case basis in the hearts and minds of believers.

But maybe I'm splitting hairs?

Then why not send the Holy Spirit instead of Christ?

[BroRog]

Then why not send the Holy Spirit instead of Christ?

He did. Christ went to sit at the right hand of the father, which allowed the Holy Spirit to come. See John 14-17

[ProjectPeter]

Well, in fairness PP, I didn't see where dagar's responses were any different in tone than your own, yet he is the one who was chastised to watch out.

Carry on...

I didn;t say anything to dagar about his tone. That was another Admin and that was his call. My getting onto dagar was in how he spoke back to one of my other mods and you've been around long enough now to know as well... you got a bone with me or another mod then take it to chat to mods and leave it off the open board. You don't openly argue with a mod's decision to correct someone in a thread. So everyone reading... enough of it already.

[dagar]

I've been here for quite a few years now and most of that time as Admin. I've told more than one person the same during that time. If stuff like this is offensive to you

I said it wasn't

Look, I'm just shooting straight like, with you. If you are ok with it then let the others know and we'll have no problems. I do prefer a bit more respectful discussion though. Not really for myself....I can handle anything, but many just simply won't read the kind of stuff you and I shell out, and I think this is an interesting and important topic all can benefit from. Your call.

I seriously doubt anyone thinks I have been unable to handle anything you have or could possible dish out
Should be obvious to you as well. I was clearly speaking on behalf of others that have expressed they do not like our tone in this discussion. Since you are not concerned about others, carry on as you always have and as you will. However, the Administration will recognize that having a double standard, one for Admin and another for members, will not prevent me from coming down to your level.

Your reading of it defies basic reading skills and or void of intellectual honesty. Simple as that really.

It means what it says. Those things and things like it are contrary to sound doctrine and the gospel. The gospel is much more than just Jesus lived, died, and lives again. That is certainly of first importance because without it you haven't even started. But it goes much further. A simple reading of the book of Acts shows that just as clearly.

Again, sound doctrine delivered by Paul includes more than the gospel. It is because you lump the two together you are in error. Jesus' words and the book of Acts both repeatedly agree the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus one time even specifically said concerning the anointing of his body for death was the gospel. I'm guessing you think Jesus was wrong for saying the cross was the gospel? That just irks you for some strange reason and it's not even what I have said.

[ProjectPeter]

I said it wasn't

I seriously doubt anyone thinks I have been unable to handle anything you have or could possible dish out
Should be obvious to you as well. I was clearly speaking on behalf of others that have expressed they do not like our tone in this discussion. Since you are not concerned about others, carry on as you always have and as you will. However, the Administration will recognize that having a double standard, one for Admin and another for members, will not prevent me from coming down to your level.

Call it what you will. To some... it is seen as a double standard just as they see double standards in every aspect of their blessed little life. Others see it as privilege because it has been earned. As to what you think you will do... if a mod or admin tells you otherwise then my advice is to do as they say regardless. You will lose that battle. Now enough of it.... if you have anything further to say then say it in chat to mods.

Again, sound doctrine delivered by Paul includes more than the gospel. It is because you lump the two together you are in error. Jesus' words and the book of Acts both repeatedly agree the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus one time even specifically said concerning the anointing of his body for death was the gospel. I'm guessing you think Jesus was wrong for saying the cross was the gospel? That just irks you for some strange reason and it's not even what I have said.

Uh... Paul said that stuff against sound doctrine was ACCORDING to the gospel. Jesus as well spoke a lot of things called gospel. He didn't say it was any one particular event either. Everything He preached was the gospel.