Gospel... moved from the law and eternal life thread

[BroRog]

Sure he does, but the point is that without the gospel there'd be no Spirit for believers of the gospel. So you can't say what follows the gospel is part of the gospel. There's nothing about having to 'believe the Comforter would come' as The gospel. That's backwards. Believing the gospel gives the Promise of the Spirit. Not the other way around.

I'm sorry, did you say that God sent you Christ, or the Holy Spirit? Did you say that Christ came down, leaving his position at the right hand of the father, went to your church and you shook hands with him? Did you come to Jesus because you met him personally, or did you come to Jesus because you read about him in a book and believed the message written there? How did you hear about this gospel anyway?

The issue here isn't whether the cross or the giving of the Holy Spirit came first. Everyone knows that the cross came first. You take issue with my view that the cross was an opening, albeit crucial and critical, salvo against the powers of darkness but the powers of darkness weren't defeated at the cross. From my perspective, the powers of darkness continue to be very real, and just as deadly and I would be a fool to walk around pretending that its all good. If the cross defeated darkness, what accounts for the Apostolic warnings such as "Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour"? Of course, our concern with the devil isn't a threat of being eaten alive, but a deeper, darker threat of being turned to do the will of darkness.

In order to do this, the cross can't simply remain a historical fact, it has to become an everyday reality in each individual person. Each of us individually and personally must constantly wage war against the powers of darkness and remain ever vigilant, guarded against the lies, the deception that comes our way each day. The war won't be over until each of us would rather believe the truth instead of the lie, but frankly speaking, many of us couldn't identify a lie if it bit us in the butt. The works of the devil won't be defeated until the devil has no one else to work on.

[ProjectPeter]

change your mind and believe the gospel?

Right. So did Paul mess that up or did as Paul say... I did not prove disobedient to that vision?

[dagar]

No what, who.

Jesus.

There is no power in the cross.

Then why did Jesus live, die, and rise from the dead?

[dagar]

I'm sorry, did you say that God sent you Christ, or the Holy Spirit?

Sure. He didn't you?

Did you say that Christ came down, leaving his position at the right hand of the father, went to your church and you shook hands with him?

No, but neither did Paul

Did you come to Jesus because you met him personally, or did you come to Jesus because you read about him in a book and believed the message written there?

I heard.

How did you hear about this gospel anyway?

It's in the book and has been preached since Christ.

The issue here isn't whether the cross or the giving of the Holy Spirit came first.

Sure it is. You can't have the Spirit without the circumcision of Christ

Everyone knows that the cross came first.

Then we're done here.

You take issue with my view that the cross was an opening, albeit crucial and critical, salvo against the powers of darkness but the powers of darkness weren't defeated at the cross.

Well you say it is done by the Spirit, who would not have come without Jesus' death (which he said was the reason he came), burial, and resurrection.

From my perspective, the powers of darkness continue to be very real, and just as deadly and I would be a fool to walk around pretending that its all good.

No one said such nonsense.

If the cross defeated darkness, what accounts for the Apostolic warnings such as "Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour"? Of course, our concern with the devil isn't a threat of being eaten alive, but a deeper, darker threat of being turned to do the will of darkness.

Right. Now walk by faith (believe what God said even though you do not see it)/believe the gospel/after the Spirit and sin shall not have dominion over you.

In order to do this, the cross can't simply remain a historical fact, it has to become an everyday reality in each individual person.

That's what I just said.

Each of us individually and personally must constantly wage war against the powers of darkness and remain ever vigilant, guarded against the lies, the deception that comes our way each day.

Well, we do not war after the flesh but after the Spirit. Believe the gospel in your everyday reality every moment and have the victory given you in heavenly places.

[dagar]

Right. So did Paul mess that up or did as Paul say... I did not prove disobedient to that vision?

I'm not understanding you. Can you explain a little better?

[Butch5]

You really don't know?

I"m asking. If it is really the Holy Spirit that destroys the works of the devil, why send Christ?

[ProjectPeter]

I'm not understanding you. Can you explain a little better?

You agree that one must change their mind (repent) and believe the gospel... which is what Paul was tasked to do and from all we know... Paul did that very thing right till the end... you agree I'm sure. So Paul says to the king... I did not prove disobedient to that vision... in other words Paul said I've done this very thing. Now how did Paul do that... I did not prove disobedient to this vision...

Acts 26:15 *"And I said, `Who art Thou, Lord?´ And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
16 *`But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 *delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 *to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 *"Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 *but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Paul's message consisted more than just believe that Jesus lived, died, and rose again. As Roger said... that was step one.

[dagar]

OK. Thanks for explaining. No it does not consist of more than believing the gospel because believing the gospel is not just a one time event. It is walking by faith.
"performing deeds appropriate to repentance"
is believing the gospel, having fruit onto holiness.

[BroRog]

I"m asking. If it is really the Holy Spirit that destroys the works of the devil, why send Christ?

I don't see how your question follows from what has been said so far. So I am a little confused about what you are actually asking me.

[BroRog]

Sure. He didn't you?

What do you mean? I asked you which person he sent to you, Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Are you trying to understand me, or do you just like to argue?

I heard.

Right. And so, when God "rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" this is also destroying the works of the devil wouldn't you say?

Well you say it is done by the Spirit, who would not have come without Jesus' death (which he said was the reason he came), burial, and resurrection.

That's right.

No one said such nonsense.

I said the works of the devil were not destroyed at the cross. You disagreed with me. So either you don't think the powers of darkness continue to be very real, or you don't seem to understand me and you're not sure wny you disagree. I don't know.

Right. Now walk by faith (believe what God said even though you do not see it)/believe the gospel/after the Spirit and sin shall not have dominion over you.

While this topic is related to sin and our sin nature, it isn't primarily about sin. Topic at hand is about the works of the devil, not the works of human sinners.

That's what I just said.

If you agree that the cross can't simply remain a historical fact, that it has to become an everyday reality in each individual person, then you either didn't understand my previous remarks, or you changed your mind. The connection you haven't yet made, perhaps, involves the Holy Spirit's role in the process. In short, the Biblical picture is that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit, a person doesn't have any interest in making the cross an everyday reality.

Well, we do not war after the flesh but after the Spirit. Believe the gospel in your everyday reality every moment and have the victory given you in heavenly places.

I have no idea what it means to "war after the Spirit." I know what it means to war with the help of the Spirit. I know what it means to have my eyes opened (what the world calls an epiphany.) I know what it means to pray to God for victory over sin and allow the Holy Spirit to help me find wisdom and grace as we work it out together. I could list a thousand different ways that the Holy Spirit helps me gain wisdom and insight and courage to remain humble before the truth, all of which directly or indirectly destroy the works of the devil.

[RollTide21]

In reading through this thread, I was just hoping for clarification:

dagar is saying that the Gospel is specifically: Jesus Death and Resurrection = Atonement for sin

Bro and PP are saying that this is only the beginning and that the Gospel is actually more than that...that it is how we respond to Christ, including how the Holy Spirit works in us in our daily life

If that is correct, then is the argument simply over what is deemed "The Gospel"? If yes, then I would agree with dagar. It seems that what PP and Bro are describing are the actions and spiritual events surrounding the core Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[ProjectPeter]

In reading through this thread, I was just hoping for clarification:

dagar is saying that the Gospel is specifically: Jesus Death and Resurrection = Atonement for sin

Bro and PP are saying that this is only the beginning and that the Gospel is actually more than that...that it is how we respond to Christ, including how the Holy Spirit works in us in our daily life

If that is correct, then is the argument simply over what is deemed "The Gospel"? If yes, then I would agree with dagar. It seems that what PP and Bro are describing are the actions and spiritual events surrounding the core Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So if the death and resurrection is all that the gospel consist of then how can the things mentioned in 1 Timothy be contrary to sound teaching ACCORDING to the gospel?

1 Timothy 1:8 *But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 *realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 *and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 *according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

[ProjectPeter]

Also you have to consider this... I've said it many times over the years here. Faith (belief in Christ) is simply the beginning of this race. That is clear in 2 Peter 1: 1-11.

2 Peter 1:1 *Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 *Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 *seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 *For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 *Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 *and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 *and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 *For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 *For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 *Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 *for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Now if this is the way entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied... how do we not count this message as just as much a part of the gospel as Jesus lived, died, and rose again living today?

[ProjectPeter]

OK. Thanks for explaining. No it does not consist of more than believing the gospel because believing the gospel is not just a one time event. It is walking by faith.
"performing deeds appropriate to repentance"
is believing the gospel, having fruit onto holiness.

Believe and perform deeds are two different things dagar. One can believe and not so much as do anything. So not sure how you're trying to tie those into one.

[ProDeo]

Then why did Jesus live, die, and rise from the dead?

The cross is a Roman torture instrument. It has no power.

If Paul says, For I decided to be concerned about nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. he is emphasizing his intention (no superior eloquence or wisdom) but Christ, and Him crucified, the heart of the Gospel. See 1 Cor 2 for context.

Second issue:

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel (ευαγγελιου) of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

ευαγγελιου - good news.

The gospel of Mark is the story and good news of the life of Jesus Christ told by Mark.

Three other people did as well, one even said:

John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies about these things and has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

The Gospel (good news) is about Jesus's life not limited to the cross only, all of it.