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Thread: Discussion of Hebrew Language (New thread from Hebrew Pictographs in Bible Study)

  1. #16
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    [QUOTE=episkopos;2831010]
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post

    You are incorrect...

    Haya means...WAS...not is. And the famous statement of the Lord...I am that I am...is not correct. It is set in the future tense...I will be what I will be.

    The present tense has no "is" ...I am a man in Hebrew is I man (ani ish)

    Any Hebrew speaker knows this. Just who are you?
    היה means was, as you say. It is used as a temporal modifier for past time actions when used with the waw consecutive and the imperfect as ויהי . It is also used to mean "is" which is the present active of "was" as in the clause הִנֵּ֨ה יַד־יְהוָ֜ה הֹויָ֗ה בְּמִקְנְךָ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בַּשָּׂדֶ֔ה Look, the hand of YHWH is with your livestock in the field. Here הויה HoYaH is the present indicative of היה HaYaH.

    In English the copula is generally "is" which is also the simple present indicative of the form "be", which is conjugated as "to be" "will be" etc. "was" "is" and "will be" etc. The same is the case with the Hebrew verb היה

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  2. #17
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    No offense taken!

    I think the fear of kaballa "cultic" teachings gets in the way of simple biblical exegesis. The bible is full of word plays and hidden allusions to other verses. It is rather precisely because of this that some have gone overboard and started inventing allusions to prop up a certain theory. It is healthy to search the scriptures for hidden treasures...we are told to do this very thing.

    Isa_45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
    Isa_48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.



    The Kabballa is a man-made system of seeking to attain to God by some secret knowledge...as if God were a thing and not a person. We need to know Him...not just about Him.

    As for the word plays..here is one...

    Jer 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.
    Jer 1:12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

    Can you see the word play in the Hebrew on this one?
    I asure you, I understand Hebrew word puns. However, in the example you cited, the pun is on the same word, only with a different inflection. It is not a pun on two differently spelled words, which must be used in some contrived form of ancient pictographs to understand a "new" or similar meaning, etc. I was merely pointing out to you how I (personally) find your method of interpreting עור as meaning they were clothed in "light". Not only does the context not allow for this interpretation, but even the linguistics do not. The words are completely different having also different meanings, they are not in the least bit synonymous. Hence, I called into question the interpretation you proposed, as your only grounds for such is something a rabbi learned from a kabbalist, and in lieu of some false cognate in the words, based upon some "pictographic" meaning of the Alephbet. I did not mean it as any personal attack or the like, merely attempting to have a serious scholarly debate upon your proposition.

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  3. #18
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    I asure you, I understand Hebrew word puns. However, in the example you cited, the pun is on the same word, only with a different inflection. It is not a pun on two differently spelled words, which must be used in some contrived form of ancient pictographs to understand a "new" or similar meaning, etc. I was merely pointing out to you how I (personally) find your method of interpreting עור as meaning they were clothed in "light". Not only does the context not allow for this interpretation, but even the linguistics do not. The words are completely different having also different meanings, they are not in the least bit synonymous. Hence, I called into question the interpretation you proposed, as your only grounds for such is something a rabbi learned from a kabbalist, and in lieu of some false cognate in the words, based upon some "pictographic" meaning of the Alephbet. I did not mean it as any personal attack or the like, merely attempting to have a serious scholarly debate upon your proposition.

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael
    If we can state that God uses wordplay...shakad (almond) shakad (hasten)...is it such a stretch that words that sound alike could also be used to get across a deeper meaning? We are talking about exchanging two silent letters...

    Since when has God become a tailor?

    If someone cannot see that Adam was first clothed in light then so be it!!!

    What makes the meaning plain is to see that the saints will also be clothed in light! Mere coincidence????

  4. #19
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    You are speaking here of the copula, which as I mentioned before is usually absent in Semitic, as well as other languages. However, the verb היה is used for the verb "be". In the perfect it is היה in the imperfect it is יהיה and in the participle (present) it is הויה . In Hebrew there are two tenses which are perfect and imperfect. The perfect expresses completed action, the imperfect incomplete action. We have verbs listed as past or עבר Avar ( הוה ) present which is always defined by the Hebrew participle (הויה ) and עתיד Future (יהיה); in English this verb is Was (הוה) Is (הויה) and Shall Be (יהיה).

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  5. #20
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    It is Shaqeid and Shoqeid. The former is a noun, the latter a participle (present tense). The root is the same SHQD. Shaqad means to be dilligent, awake, etc.

    Where does it say the saints will be clothed with light? What saints?

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  6. #21
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    It is Shaqeid and Shoqeid. The former is a noun, the latter a participle (present tense). The root is the same SHQD. Shaqad means to be dilligent, awake, etc.

    Where does it say the saints will be clothed with light? What saints?

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael
    Col_1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    We can have this clothing in the Spirit right now!!!!

    Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

  7. #22
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Col_1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    Light in this verse is not clothing, but abode. According to the context, the light is where the saints will abide, as opposed to their former abode of darkness:

    who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love (verse 12)

    also the phrase is εν τω φωτι, which is in the light, not "in light". The light is a metaphor for sinlessness and righteous living.

    (My opinion)
    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  8. #23
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    Light in this verse is not clothing, but abode. According to the context, the light is where the saints will abide, as opposed to their former abode of darkness:

    who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love (verse 12)

    also the phrase is εν τω φωτι, which is in the light, not "in light". The light is a metaphor for sinlessness and righteous living.

    (My opinion)
    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael
    Light is not a metaphor...God is clothed in light and we shall be. We shall be like Him. Those who have seen the Lord have seen His light. Those who walk in the Spirit also see this light.

  9. #24
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Friend, I must disagree. God dwells in inapproachable light, and his Kevod was seen as Fire to the Israelites. However, God has no form, and is not clothed as a man. In those passages which describe Him as having hands, eyes, etc. these are all metaphores. Contrary to the christian interpretations, I do not hold to the belief that Yeshua is God incarnate, and none of us shall be "like" God, as He is far beyond our comprehension. However, I will not begrudge any who may hold to this belief.

    Yaaqov ben Yisrael

  10. #25
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    Friend, I must disagree. God dwells in inapproachable light, and his Kevod was seen as Fire to the Israelites. However, God has no form, and is not clothed as a man. In those passages which describe Him as having hands, eyes, etc. these are all metaphores. Contrary to the christian interpretations, I do not hold to the belief that Yeshua is God incarnate, and none of us shall be "like" God, as He is far beyond our comprehension. However, I will not begrudge any who may hold to this belief.

    Yaaqov ben Yisrael
    Shalom to you!

  11. #26
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Shalom, thanks for understanding. I didn't come to debate on any matter of faith, rather on the matter of Hebrew and exegsis, grammar etc.

    Yaaqov

  12. #27
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    שיהיה לכם ומשפחות זלכם חג הפסח יברך יהוה אותכם אמן

  13. #28
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    Friend, I must disagree. God dwells in inapproachable light, and his Kevod was seen as Fire to the Israelites. However, God has no form, and is not clothed as a man. In those passages which describe Him as having hands, eyes, etc. these are all metaphores. Contrary to the christian interpretations, I do not hold to the belief that Yeshua is God incarnate, and none of us shall be "like" God, as He is far beyond our comprehension. However, I will not begrudge any who may hold to this belief.

    Yaaqov ben Yisrael
    I don't understand this. If we can't be "like" God, then why did He create us in His "image and likeness"?

    We can be "like" God, but not of our own volition. We must accept God to be like Him, and let His guidance prevail. (To be "holy" is to be "like" God). Can't approach God in this mortal fleshy existence, certainly, but in the spirit we shall be in His presence.
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

  14. #29
    Yaaqov ben Yisrael Guest

    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceegen View Post
    I don't understand this. If we can't be "like" God, then why did He create us in His "image and likeness"?

    We can be "like" God, but not of our own volition. We must accept God to be like Him, and let His guidance prevail. (To be "holy" is to be "like" God). Can't approach God in this mortal fleshy existence, certainly, but in the spirit we shall be in His presence.
    Humanity was indeed made in the image and likeness of God but this only means humanity was created as a physical representation of God. This in no way can be misconstrued to mean man is infact God, or will become a god. Tselem צלם means a physical representation, a representative. And this is what humanity was infact made to be, the representative of God on earth. This is qualified by the following clause concerning their authority over all the creation. Demuth דּמות means a representation in quality or rank, and is usually used in relation to the semblance of a son to his father's likeness in stature.

    There is a similar passage in the Quran in relation to the creation of humanity:

    وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

    When your Lord said to the angels, "I am making a vicegerent (khalifah) in the earth", they said; "Will You make therein one who spreads mischief and sheds blood, while we only celebrate Your Praise?". He (God) said, "I surely know what you do not know." 2:30

    The focus of the Hebrew Text has always been that of God descending to dwell with humanity on the earth, while that of other Texts has always had the focus of humanity striving to ascend to the heavens and either become a god, or become like a god.

    Praise be to YeHeWeh. He is such that senses cannot perceive Him, place cannot contain Him, eyes cannot see Him and veils cannot cover Him. He proves His eternity by the coming into existence of His creation, and by originating His creation, His existence, and by their similarity He proves that there is nothing similar to Him. He is true in His promise. He is too high to be unjust to His creatures. He stands by equity among His creation and practices justice over them in His commands. He provides evidence through the creation of things of His being from ever, through their marks of incapability, of His power, and through their powerlessness against death, of His eternity.He is one, but not by counting. He is everlasting without any limit. He is existent without any support. Minds admit Him without senses. Things which cannot be seen stand witness to Him without confronting Him. Imagination cannot encompass Him. He manifests Himself to the imagination with His help for the imagination, and refuses to be imagined by the imagination. He has made imagination the arbiter. He is not big in the sense that volume is vast and so His body is also big. Nor is He great in the sense that His limits should extend to the utmost and so His frame be extensive. Rather He is big in position and great in authority.He who assigns to Him conditions does not believe in His oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality. He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him. Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect. He works, but not with the help of instruments. He fixes measure but not with the activity of thinking. He is rich but not by acquisition.Time does not keep company with Him, and implements do not help Him. His being precedes times. His existence precedes non-existence and His eternity precedes beginning. By His creating the senses it is known that He has no senses. By the contraries in various matters it is known the He has no contrary, and by the similarity between things it is known that there is nothing similar to Him. He has made light contrary to darkness, brightness that of gloom, dryness that of moisture and heat that of cold. He produces affection among inimical things.He fuses together diverse things, brings near remote things and separates things which are joined together. He is not confined by limits, nor counted by numbers. Material parts can surround things of their own kind, and organs can point out things similar to themselves. The word מאז "since" disproves their eternity, the word עתה "now" disproves their being from ever, and the word אם "if" keep them remote from perfection. Through them the Creator manifests Himself to the intelligence, and through them He is guarded from the sight of the eyes. Stillness and motion do not occur in Him, and how can that thing occur in Him which He Himself has made to occur, and how can a thing revert to Him which He first created, and how can a thing appear in Him which He first brought to appearance? If it had not been so, His Self would have become subject to diversity, His being would have become divisible, and His reality would have been prevented from being deemed Eternal. If there was a front to Him there would also have been a rear for Him. He would need completing only if shortage befell Him. Through the might of His abstention, He is far above being affected by things which effect others.He is that which does not change or vanish. The process of setting does not behoove Him. He has not begotten anyone lest He be regarded as having been born. He has not been begotten otherwise He would be contained within limits. He is too high to have sons. He is too purified to have sexual relations with a woman. Imagination cannot reach Him so as to assign Him quantity. Understanding cannot think of Him so as to give Him a shape. Senses do not perceive Him so as to feel Him. Hands cannot touch Him so as to rub against Him. He does not change into any condition, nor does He pass from one state to another. Night and day does not turn Him old, neither do light and dark alter Him.It cannot be said He has a limit or extremity, or end or termination; nor do things control Him so as to raise Him or lower Him, nor does anything carry Him so as to bend Him or keep Him erect. He is not inside things nor outside them. He conveys new, but not with a tongue or voice. He listens, but not with the holes of the ears or the organs of hearing. He speaks but does not utter words. He remembers but does not memorize. He determines but not by the exercising of His mind. He loves and approves without any sentimentality. He hates and feels angry without any painstaking. When He intends to create someone He says יהי "yihi" and there he is, but not through a voice that strikes is that call heard. His speech is an act of His creation. His like never existed before this. If it had been eternal, it would have been a second god.It cannot be said that He came into existence after He had not been in existence; in that case the attributes of the created things would be assigned to Him and there would remain no difference between them and Him, and He would have no distinction over them. Thus the created and the Creator would become equal and the initiator and the initiated would be on the same level. He created creation without any example made by someone else, and He did not secure the assistance of any one out of His creation for creating it.He created the earth and suspended it without being busy, retained it without support, made it stand without legs, raised it without pillars, protected it against bending and curving and defended it against crumbling and splitting. He fixed mountains on it like stumps, solidified its rocks, caused its streams to flow and opened wide its valleys. Whatever He made did not suffer from any flow, and whatever He strengthened did not show any weakness.He manifests Himself over the earth with His authority and greatness. He is aware of its inside through His knowledge and understanding. He has power over everything in the earth by virtue of His sublimity and dignity. Nothing from the earth that He may ask for defies Him, nor does it oppose Him so as to overpower Him. No swift-footed creature can run away from Him so as to surpass Him. He is not needy towards any possessing person so that he should feed Him. All things bow to Him and are humble before His greatness. There is no parallel for Him who may match Him and no one like Him so as to equal Him.

    Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

  15. #30
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    Re: Hebrew pictographs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaaqov ben Yisrael View Post
    שיהיה לכם ומשפחות זלכם חג הפסח יברך יהוה אותכם אמן
    Amen! Same for you and your family! Chag sameach!

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