I am a Christian Zionist because God commands it
I am a Zionist because it's the right thing to do, even though God doesn't command it
I am not a Zionist. Israel like any other country
I am not a Zionist. Israel is wrong
guest
Where is the mention of your 'second resurrection'? Chapter-verse please. Those who stand before God at judgement are never identified as taking part in some second resurrection - are they? Do you just wing it with a song and dance when you can't provide Scripture?Originally Posted by shepherdsword
guest
Excellent point.
המשיח הגיע בבשר
For someone who accuses others of "misunderstanding" you sure fail to comprehend a great many things...such as what "the REST of the dead" means
Is English your first language? I'm serious,this is an international board and the possibility has occurred to me.
.There is no mention of a 'bodily resurrection' as noted by the Lord at the general resurrection. Those identified as reigning with Christ a thousand years are *the souls* of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God.
Yes,all the dead in Christ shall rise at the last trump.
There goes your misunderstanding kicking in again. The term "the rest of the DEAD lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" begs the term "second resurrection" . I'm still looking for the term "general" resurrection. Maybe you can show me the verse?Where is the resurrection of the body in that passage my friend.
*sigh* I can see I need to sit you down and go more slowly...you are really mixed up.It is not to be found just as the term 'second resurrection' is not to be found. Once again you need to reorganize your thoughts.
Lord,one thing I ask...use me for your glory.
guest
Interpretation: this guy cannot support his term 'second resurrection' via God's word because it is not in God's word so he will once again sing and dance. Do you have anything else or have you about run your course?
המשיח הגיע בבשר
Like I said..go learn what "the REST of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were finished" and then get back with me.
I can see you are struggling
Grand Master
Contextually Revelation 20:1-10 is speaking of resurrected believers, including many who were beheaded for their witness for Christ. These are contrasted with the rest of the dead. So the first resurrection is referring to the resurrection of believers. With that in mind...Originally Posted by Raybob
If it were a "second" resurrection, the bible would call it that. It doesn't so obviously the first is the one that gives power over the second death. That first must either refer to Christ's resurrection or the born again experience. Those are the only things that give power over the second death. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
question- If the first resurrection refers to a spiritual resurrection, not a physical resurrection, does the phrase "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished" refer to living again spiritually as well? If the first resurrection is spiritual, wouldnt the phrase "lived not again until" refer to a spiritual living again? Or is John describing a spiritual resurrection followed by a description of a physical resurrection?
Seondly, wouldnt the dead living again be a good definition of resurrection? How do you define resurrection? It does not say "second resurrection" but it does say the rest of the dead would live again. Please consider the following questions.
First resurrection... ( Please define)
The rest of the dead... who is this speaking of ?
live not again... in what way are they not alive?
Until the thousand years...( what is the thousand years referring to?)
are finished. what happens to the rest of the dead at this point in time and how does it differ from their state as described when they did not live?
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
המשיח הגיע בבשר
Hey...stand in line, I asked first!
Grand Master
I didnt realize you had already asked those questions.
BTW, if anyone cares, I edited the post, so it is actually readable now.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Grand Master
Second resurrection vs the rest of the dead living again...It sounds the same to me. Nevertheless, everyone is getting into an uproar here, so why don't we all take a time out and dance and sing together.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
guest
Contextually, the first resurrection is never referred to as a “bodily resurrection” – it doesn’t even hint of such. This is significant. Again, you are looking at the Apocalypse through the blinders of materialism. The Jews made the same mistake when they failed to see the spiritual kingdom established by the Lord in the first century.
The NT does, however tell us exactly when the bodily resurrection will happen. It will happen at the end of this age when ALL the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God (John 5: 25-29). At the general resurrection both the righteous and unrighteous will come forth from the tomb at the same time – this is from the word of the Lord Himself. Do you believe the Lord spoke of one general resurrection of both saint and sinner that will take place at the same time?
Regarding the ‘first resurrection’ – Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms what it is. Again, in John 5…
The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live ...
Those who hear the gospel of grace and obey from the heart that doctrine delivered are those who pass from spiritual death to life and they “shall live” in Christ Jesus (the first resurrection). Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Believers have been resurrected from spiritual death and made alive and whole – washed in the blood of the Lamb. Easy concept.
You ask about "the rest of the dead” - they are simply those who reject Jesus Christ – i.e., those who remain *dead in their sins* - those who have never experienced the “first resurrection”. It is all in the Book.
If you passed from death to life when you 'called upon the name of the Lord" did you also experience the 'first resurrection"?
guest
Is that all you have? Next.
What, me worry?
The "rest of the dead" refers to everyone that was never born again. All the people that were born in sin and trespasses and never were brought to life to live and reign with Christ.
No, it doesn't say they would live "again". It says those of the first resurrection "lived and reigned with Christ". I do that now and hope you do too.Seondly, wouldnt the dead living again be a good definition of resurrection? How do you define resurrection? It does not say "second resurrection" but it does say the rest of the dead would live again. Please consider the following questions.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4)
Christians living and reigning with Christ. I see it as the born again experience. Others see it as referring to Christ, the first born of the dead.First resurrection... ( Please define)
Those that don't ever come to life through Jesus.The rest of the dead... who is this speaking of ?
Spiritually.live not again... in what way are they not alive?
A LOONG period of time, referring to the time from the cross until just before the second coming.Until the thousand years...( what is the thousand years referring to?)
I'm not sure I understand the question. What point of time? The end of the reign of Christ?are finished. what happens to the rest of the dead at this point in time and how does it differ from their state as described when they did not live?
Senior Member
No, Jesus was not mistaken. It is you who is mistaken in this case.
This is the resurrection of the unsaved FOLLOWING the Millennium (Revelation 20:5-15) The saved shall be raised to eternal glory; the unsaved to eternal punishment and shame (John 5:28-29). People will be born and die during the Millennium. They will still have an Adamic nature during that time. Although Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit during this time (Revelation 20: 1-3), his INFLUENCE will still be present, which is seen at the end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed "for a season". Those whom Satan deceives and who follow him at the end of the Millennium will be as the "sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:7-9)
There will not be one general resurrection.
It seems as though you don't believe there will be a literal Millennial reign of Christ on this earth from Jerusalem...am I correct?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
Grand Master
It talks about believers who were beheaded for Christ living and reigning with Christ.Contextually, the first resurrection is never referred to as a “bodily resurrection
Revelation 20:4-And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Where are the words Spiritual resurrection found in Revelation 20?
Are you saying that there will never be a literal or materiel reign of Christ? What do you do with these passages?The Jews made the same mistake when they failed to see the spiritual kingdom established by the Lord in the first century.
[B]Revelation 5:10 And have made us[a] kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Matthew 5:5- Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 2: 7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[a] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”
Revelation 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[j]—
as I also have received from My Father
The Jews that did not accept Messiah thought that the material reign of Christ would come immedietely. They did not understand that He had to suffer and die before the Kingdom could be realized.
I agree with these words, though I'm not sure that is what John meant by the first resurrection. Read these verses carefully.Those who hear the gospel of grace and obey from the heart that doctrine delivered are those who pass from spiritual death to life and they “shall live” in Christ Jesus (the first resurrection). Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Believers have been resurrected from spiritual death and made alive and whole – washed in the blood of the Lamb. Easy concept.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Who does John say is living and reigning with Christ in this passage? The souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the Word of God.
I agree. Yet the passage says that they will not live again until the thousand years are finished. It doesnt say they will never live again, it says they will not live again until after the thousand years. In what way will they live after the thousand years, physically or spiritually?You ask about "the rest of the dead” - they are simply those who reject Jesus Christ – i.e., those who remain *dead in their sins* - those who have never experienced the “first resurrection”. It is all in the Book.
If you say physically, then you agree that this passage is talking about a physical resurrection of the wicked at the second coming of Christ. If the second clause is speaking of a physical resurrection, then why isnt the first clause a physical resurrection.
If you say that the rest of the dead live spiritually after the 1,000 years, you are teaching universalism.
So basically, I take it that you are saying that this passage means that believers are resurrected spiritually when they get saved, ( which I agree with), that the thousand year reign of Christ is figurative of the Church age, and the rest of the dead living after the thousand years is referring to the physical resurrection of unbelievers on the last day, when both they and believers will be resurrected? In this way you are making the first clause, ( first resurrection), a spiritual resurrection, and the second clause, ( the rest of the dead) refering to a physical resurrection. If so, I can accept that as your interpretation, though I may or may not agree with it, but at least present a clear argument on what the apostle means when he says the rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years are finished.
Or do you not believe the wicked will be physically resurrected?
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Grand Master
The passage says they will not live until the thousand years are finished. If the thousand years mark the period from the cross to the second coming, then that means that the rest of the dead will not live until Christ returns. Now, is this living again of the "rest of the dead" referring to a physical or a spiritual resurrection.are finished. what happens to the rest of the dead at this point in time and how does it differ from their state as described when they did not live?
I'm not sure I understand the question. What point of time? The end of the reign of Christ?
Again, if you say it is a physical resurrection, then what you are saying is that the first clause ( first resurrection) refers to a spiritual resurrection, while the second clause, ( the rest of the dead did not live until...) is referring to a physical resurrection of the wicked at the second advent. Is this what you hold?
The living again of the rest of the dead cannot be a spiritual resurrection, because that would be universalism.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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