Are you a Christian Zionist?

[divaD]

How big is your God? Is He big enough to resurrect the just, then catch up all believers, then destroy the wicked, then resurrect the wicked dead within 60 minutes? I believe my God is big enough to do that all within 10 minutes. If He needs a whole hour, like He says, that's fine with me too.

So you're actually taking that to mean a literal hour then? What happens if it takes 61 minutes?

But let's look at what you said previously.

The point is when it happens, Jesus said that "ALL" in the graves rise, good and bad at the same time.

Here you said it happens at the same time.

Then here is what you just said...Is He big enough to resurrect the just, then catch up all believers, then destroy the wicked, then resurrect the wicked dead within 60 minutes?

That doesn't look like the same time to me. If someone watches one tv program at 3pm, and another one at 3:30pm, those tv shows are hardly on at the same time, even if they both occur within an hour. When someone says something happens at the same time, personally speaking, I take that to mean literally the exact same time for whatever. So then, if even 30 minutes could separate the resurrections between the just and the unjust, then so could 1000 years, since it would be the same concept pretty much.

[shepherdsword]

The terms used "the resurrection of the just" and "the resurrection of the wicked" indicate two seperate events.

[zeke77]

The terms used "the resurrection of the just" and "the resurrection of the wicked" indicate two seperate events.

You misunderstand the Lord's words - at the appointed hour there will be 'one general resurrection' for both the just and the unjust. At that appointed time those who have done good will experience "the resurrection of life" and those who have done evil will experience "the resurrection of judgment". One resurrection event - two outcomes depending on your relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
(John 5:28-29 ESV)

Robertson who leans towards a semi-premil view agrees - one 'general bodily resurrection' for both good and bad...

John 5:28

In the tombs. A general judgment and a general bodily resurrection we have here for both good and bad ~ WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

[divaD]

One resurrection event - two outcomes depending on your relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

One resurrection event does not take into account those that are still physically alive when Christ returns, IOW the wicked who have to be destroyed first. If they're going to be destroyed first, then how do they also get resurrected with those of the unjust in this one resurrection event?

Here's what I see you saying. Christ returns. And in the twinkling of an eye, both the just and unjust are raised in the same event. Ok, but what happens after that? There's still the wicked living whom Christ must now destroy after the twinkling of an eye event. The only problem, the unjust were already raised when the just were. That means there has to be another resurrection of the unjust after this, except I'm not certain where the Bible ever speaks of this other resurrection of the unjust.

[shepherdsword]

You misunderstand the Lord's words - at the appointed hour there will be 'one general resurrection' for both the just and the unjust. At that appointed time those who have done good will experience "the resurrection of life" and those who have done evil will experience "the resurrection of judgment". One resurrection event - two outcomes depending on your relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
(John 5:28-29 ESV)

Robertson who leans towards a semi-premil view agrees - one 'general bodily resurrection' for both good and bad...

John 5:28

In the tombs. A general judgment and a general bodily resurrection we have here for both good and bad ~ WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

The separation of the two events is necessary due to this:

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The first resurrection deals with those who did not take the mark of the beast and those who are dead in Christ. A mark that is difficult to interpret figuratively because you can't buy or sell without it.
The first resurrection takes place at the last trump:

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are told who will be resurrected at this trump. It only mentions the dead in christ. It doesn't mention the wicked dead. This makes sense because not all of the wicked will be dead at this point.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

There will still remain some wicked on the earth who will destroyed by the Lord at his coming. Therefore this first resurrection cannot apply to them.

I know we have gone around on this before brother. We disagree on this. However,I do agree with you on this. There cannot be any more blood sacrifices that actually atone for sin. I am currently working a model that will eliminate this dilemma and that will also put the unfulfilled prophecies into proper perspective.

[zeke77]

The separation of the two events is necessary due to this...

That may be the way you see it through the tinted glasses of Dispensational/Pre-Mil/Pre-trib/Pre-wrath eschatology but if one looks at Holy Writ in context one clearly will see one "general resurrection" of both the saved and the un-saved at the same hour.

I know we have gone around on this before brother. We disagree on this. However,I do agree with you on this. There cannot be any more blood sacrifices that actually atone for sin. I am currently working a model that will eliminate this dilemma and that will also put the unfulfilled prophecies into proper perspective.

I would take it a step further to its logical conclusion - there will never be a need (or requirement) from God for any animal sacrifices for any reason after the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Does your dilemma-solving agree with that truth?

[zeke77]

O

Here's what I see you saying. Christ returns. And in the twinkling of an eye, both the just and unjust are raised in the same event. Ok, but what happens after that? There's still the wicked living whom Christ must now destroy after the twinkling of an eye event. The only problem, the unjust were already raised when the just were. That means there has to be another resurrection of the unjust after this, except I'm not certain where the Bible ever speaks of this other resurrection of the unjust.

Your outline only works in the land of Premillennialism. In the Bible the Lord returns at the last trump - those faithful believers living on the Earth are caught up to meet Christ in the air. The general resurrection takes place for all who are in the tombs - those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

[divaD]

Your outline only works in the land of Premillennialism. In the Bible the Lord returns at the last trump - those faithful believers living on the Earth are caught up to meet Christ in the air. The general resurrection takes place for all who are in the tombs - those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Unless I'm missing something, you still haven't explained when and how the wicked who are alive when Christ returns also gets resurrected with the unjust.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Using this passage as the outline, explain how you think it will go down, which includes the wicked who are still alive and must be destroyed before they can be resurrected unto damnation. Do you see this as a literal hour..60 minutes?

[zeke77]

Unless I'm missing something, you still haven't explained when and how the wicked who are alive when Christ returns also gets resurrected with the unjust.

Holy Writ implied they will be “destroyed with intense heat” and then resurrected with the rest of the unjust...

”the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.”

Do you see this as a literal hour..60 minutes?

More of a ‘brief period of time – in an instant’.

[Raybob]

So you're actually taking that to mean a literal hour then? What happens if it takes 61 minutes?

But let's look at what you said previously.



Here you said it happens at the same time.

Then here is what you just said...Is He big enough to resurrect the just, then catch up all believers, then destroy the wicked, then resurrect the wicked dead within 60 minutes?

That doesn't look like the same time to me. If someone watches one tv program at 3pm, and another one at 3:30pm, those tv shows are hardly on at the same time, even if they both occur within an hour. When someone says something happens at the same time, personally speaking, I take that to mean literally the exact same time for whatever. So then, if even 30 minutes could separate the resurrections between the just and the unjust, then so could 1000 years, since it would be the same concept pretty much.

When I said "at the same time", I obviously was meaning the time of the second coming. To me, it seems like it would take God maybe 10 minutes to accomplish all He said He would do when He comes but my God is really big enough that all those events can easily happen within the time of a flash of lightning. How much time does it take for lightning to flash from east to west?

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(Mat 24:27)

[divaD]

When I said "at the same time", I obviously was meaning the time of the second coming.

Ok understood now. But it wasn't as obvious as you thought, since I was thinking something else entirely. But I see what you mean now.

but my God is really big enough that all those events can easily happen within the time of a flash of lightning. How much time does it take for lightning to flash from east to west?

This is true, God could certainly do it like that. But that don't mean He will tho. Sorta like how it took Him 6 days to create and form everything. I'm certain He could have done all that in a twinkling of an eye if He so chose to, except He didn't choose to.

[Luciano Vinci]

I picked number 3.

However, I am strong supporter of Israel politically. They are our ally and a democratic and decent nation in a region that is at times very indecent. I also take the side of Israel in an historic sense. While I sympathize with the Palestinians, I do not see Israel as the bad guys, and believe if the Arab nations were not Muslim (and haters of Israel) there could and would likely be peace in the region.

That said, I follow what God told the prophets and especially Jeremiah (3 times): do not pray for this people (Israel, Judah, Jerusalem). It will make no difference if they don't return to God. I do pray for the peace "of" Jerusalem (the habitation of peace). The New Testament Temple is the believer and the church, the New Testament city is New or heavenly Jerusalem, and the New Testament people are the Israel of God. So I bless the "Seed" of Abraham (Jesus) and His joint-heirs, the Church.

There is nothing in the New Testament that tells the believer to pray for Jerusalem (which according to Paul was in bondage with all her children). Furthermore, after AD 70 there was no Jerusalem for about 125 years. Do we really believe there were Christians praying for the peace of a city that didn't exist? I am sure the early saints understood the real Jerusalem had moved from the earth and into the heavenly realms. The Bible states emphatically, in several places, that Zion cannot be removed, but abides forever. Unless God is a liar, and since Jerusalem has been completely destroyed 5 times (I think), it's easier to assume that Zion is not a geographic location in the earth, but a heavenly people, a city set on a hill, a heavenly Jerusalem.

[Pbminimum]

I'm in the #1 Zionist camp....

[guero]

Judaism is apostasy.

Christ revealed Himself to the Jews. Many accepted Him. Many rejected Him. Those who accepted Him were the remaining root of Israel, which Paul refers to:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree (Romans 11:17).

The branches that were broken off were the unbelieving Jews. They are no longer part of the believing root. Believing Christian Gentiles were grafted onto the root in their place.



In a sense, the Jewish apostasy is worse than the Muslim apostasy. At least Jesus is held to be a great prophet in the Koran and Muslims believe that there is some truth in the four Gospels. This is more than is attributed to Jesus by Judaism. They simply dismiss Him as one of the many false messiahs.



The belief that God is somehow sustaining apostate Jews for some special eschatological purpose is just awful. We should be praying for and working for their conversion.

If we believe that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, how can we believe that God has some other equally valid Way for those who choose to reject Him?

[Fenris]

In a sense, the Jewish apostasy is worse than the Muslim apostasy.

Yeah!! Am I evil, or what?!