The Book of Job...explain????

[Nobunaga]

I used to see it as what happens when bad things happen to good guys, if your going through trials read the book of Job. Then i read a book by Jon Levenson (Jewish scholar Harvard) which i had to read it as part of my ANE study class, glad i did it turned my view 180. I dont see it now as a Theodicy but as a Theocentric treaties which shifts the focus from man to God, for me the climax of the book is when God speaks to Job, God never answers the "Why are these things happening "question, instead he gives a list of rhetorical questions regarding cosmogony displaying His Glory and highlighting Jobs (men in general) ignorance of very common things, things that happen every day like how does the sun come up and such like, showing we have no capacity at all to understand the basics let alone question God on "why" or how He runs the cosmos.

This universe is Theocentric not anthropocentric the world does not revolve around us but God, and Levenson claims to question the justice of God and demand to know "why" in a stubborn self righteous way is to question His very mastery of the universe, He is soverign and in complete and utter control of the cosmos and so to doubt this, is to doubt that fact either that He is good or competent. To think you could do a better job at running the cosmos is to be like the hubris one, who thought he could asend and be like the Most High and do a better job of running things.

It's not all about Majestic sovereignty though, there is grace and comfort in the latter chapters where God graciously gives back and the later part is better than the first so even though trial come, trust in God and put your hope in Him, as His grace is sufficient. To me this is the book of job. maybe not the common view but its a view.

[notuptome]

God brought up Job not satan. Satan had noticed Job but satan would not dare to address God without being addressed first. Job 1:8

God did not allow Job to be tested for the edification of the angels. That is a rather unusual idea. All that God does is for His glory. Jobs testing drew him closer to God and gave him a more intimate relationship with God. Learning to trust God is a lesson we all face. Trusting God not only for eternal life but for each days specific needs.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Servant89]

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

Prov 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

Prov 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and Before honour is humility.

Remember the story of Joseph? Christians should not expect to be governors of Egypt without having their brothers sell them out or go to jail for something they did not do.

It does not make sense for Jesus to arrive without a cross and say to us: "Bow down to me, trust me, I deserve to be worshipped". No. Instead, he showed us why he is worthy to receive praise and worship.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Remember Paul? Acts 9:16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Remember Nahman the Syrian? Before healing him, he had to take a dip in a dirty river.

Remember Israel in Egypt? Before setting them free, Pharaoh was hard on them.

Remember the nation of Israel? Before being born in 1948, they had the holocaust.

Remember our King Jesus being born in a manger?

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

God had a huge trophy in heaven for Job. But it does not make sense to give him that trophy without demonstrating why God gave it to him. Now we know.

This is a basic Christian principle. Let me say it again: "Before honor, there is humility".

P.S. Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

And humility has nothing to do with keeping the law.

1 Pet 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.


Shalom

[LankyLee]

I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.

When debating an atheist you can't just leave out that much of the passage.
We as believers see these things in a different light.

[VerticalReality]

When debating an atheist you can't just leave out that much of the passage.
We as believers see these things in a different light.

I don't think anything is being left out. I think it is putting things in its proper perspective. The purpose was not to prove Satan wrong. God had a much loftier purpose than that.

I also don't believe that this was some occasion where God decided to do this because He is sovereign and "in control" of all things. To me, that is an incorrect view of God's sovereignty.

[Nobunaga]

I also don't believe that this was some occasion where God decided to do this because He is sovereign and "in control" of all things. To me, that is an incorrect view of God's sovereignty.

What do you see these rhetorical questions as showing then if not Gods mastery of the universe and highlighting our lack of understanding ?

[watchinginawe]

My response was the basic.
satan thought without Gods protection and blessings Job would turn from God. God knew Job would not, so he allowed satan to bring heartache on Job. Although Job did ask why he never cursed God, and praised God throughout the ordeal. Job endured and was restored with more blessings in the end. Bad things do happen to the righteous and we can't explain this mystery of God with our human brain.

This is about all I had, which did not seem to satisfy

.....help

That is a pretty good answer. One way to understand the Book of Job is in answer to the question: Why do we serve God? Is it so that God will build a hedge around us and bless us? That was Satan's accusation, he was suggesting that God is worshipped only for the blessings. Job answers: Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job's motives are proven pure.

Another or additional way to look at the book is as a challenge to Deuteronomic Justice, or basically that serving God brings forth blessings and sin brings forth cursing. Job's friends insisted that he had sinned and that was the cause of his suffering. They were miserable comforters and proven wrong. Job had to forgive them though.

Another or additional way is the relation of man to God and his understanding of Him and His ways. Things are not centered upon man, but rather God. Man can often get very "self" centered on their view of things.

[divaD]

I don't focus on Satan's challenge. Had there been no benefit for Job, I don't think it ever would have happened . . . challenge or not. I believe God's ultimate motivation for the trials in Job's life is seen at the end of the book when Job repents.

I don't disagree with the end result, all turned out good. Had not satan challenged God, so to speak, I still fail to see what would have ever motivated God to put Job in satan's hands in the first place. Since God first mentioned Job to satan, do you then think God put it in satan's heart to challenge Him, so that Job could repent in the end? If satan has free will and can think for himself, then why would it have not been satan's idea to challenge God about the hedge? When satan caused man to fall in the garden, did God put that in satan's heart, so that man would fall? Or is it more likely, since satan apparently has a mind of his own, he himself came up with the idea?

[VerticalReality]

What do you see these rhetorical questions as showing then if not Gods mastery of the universe and highlighting our lack of understanding ?

I don't think God's rhetorical questions were an indication that His allowing these things to come upon Job were for the purposes of showing His sovereignty if that is what you are asking.

I think to apply that to God would be a gross error. Let's say, for example, that a father decides to take his son and beat him thoroughly with a baseball bat simply for the purposes of showing his son that he is in control of him. What sort of picture do you think this paints of the father? Loving? Compassionate? No, we would say that father is an absolute monster. Likewise, God was not allowing terrible things in Job's life simply to show how powerful and sovereign He is. He allowed it for Job's benefit.

[VerticalReality]

I don't disagree with the end result, all turned out good. Had not satan challenged God, so to speak, I still fail to see what would have ever motivated God to put Job in satan's hands in the first place. Since God first mentioned Job to satan, do you then think God put it in satan's heart to challenge Him, so that Job could repent in the end? If satan has free will and can think for himself, then why would it have not been satan's idea to challenge God about the hedge? When satan caused man to fall in the garden, did God put that in satan's heart, so that man would fall? Or is it more likely, since satan apparently has a mind of his own, he himself came up with the idea?

Do you not think that God saw a need for change in Job? Do you think it took Satan's challenge to God in order for Him to see it? I, personally, would not believe this to be the case. I think God knew all along what change needed to be brought about in Job, and I believe He knew exactly what it would take to bring this change about. God, because He knows all things, understood exactly what it would take to bring about His will in the life of His child.

[Nobunaga]

I don't think God's rhetorical questions were an indication that His allowing these things to come upon Job were for the purposes of showing His sovereignty if that is what you are asking.
.

I said the purpose of the book was theocentric, reversing the Focus on man and putting God at the forefront, looking away from self to God. To me this is what Job does when he repents, God's mastery of the universe is part of the book, you seemed to have latched on to the sovereignty part of the post and made far more out of it than i posted, maybe that my fault for not being clear. I wont defend your analogy to me, because it not my view to defend. I wrote about Gods grace also.

[divaD]

Do you not think that God saw a need for change in Job? Do you think it took Satan's challenge to God in order for Him to see it? I, personally, would not believe this to be the case. I think God knew all along what change needed to be brought about in Job, and I believe He knew exactly what it would take to bring this change about. God, because He knows all things, understood exactly what it would take to bring about His will in the life of His child.

I'm not disagreeing with you so much, it's that we're each coming from a different perspective I think. We both acknowledge what satan said in the beginning of ch 1. To me, you seem to think it had little to do with anything. I tend to think it had a lot to do with everything. It's what got the ball rolling and gave God a reason to allow what happens to Job. Had not satan challenged God the way he did, I can't imagine what would have possessed God to subject Job in the manner he was subjected.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

What more could God want out of anyone? Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil. Wasn't that the kind of person God would be desiring? What else would there to be to add to that at this point?

But notice what satan then says.

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


That's what got the ball rolling. But what happens to Job at this point, I fail to see what it has to do with anything in the way he was depicted in verse 1 and 8. Before satan got a hold of Job, God had already concluded that Job was a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil. God Himself concluded that. satan challenged that, since he only believed Job was that way because the LORD had blessed Him. Take away what he has, and you will see that Job was only pretending, so to speak, since he knew he had much to gain by doing so. This would be coming from satan's perspective, But God knew Job's heart, satan didn't...thus begins the saga. But anyway that's the perspective I'm coming from.

[VerticalReality]

I'm not disagreeing with you so much, it's that we're each coming from a different perspective I think. We both acknowledge what satan said in the beginning of ch 1. To me, you seem to think it had little to do with anything. I tend to think it had a lot to do with everything. It's what got the ball rolling and gave God a reason to allow what happens to Job. Had not satan challenged God the way he did, I can't imagine what would have possessed God to subject Job in the manner he was subjected.

To me, that view seems to indicate that Satan can instigate God to react the way His creation would. I don't think Satan got anything rolling. It's not like anything Satan said caught God by surprise. He knew Satan's words before he spoke them. God also knew the situation with Job long before Satan came to Him. God mentioned Job for a reason, and it was actually God that got the ball rolling. He's the one who mentioned Job to Satan. His reasoning for doing so is what is revealed at the end of the book. Job had a need, and sometimes life shows us that we have to go through some adversity in order to bring about a greater good.

[Servant89]

The only bad thing that job did, was to question God and demand that God will explain himself to him ... he knew that was wrong as he stated in Job 9:32

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

But then he could not stand it anymore and spoke within himself these words ..

Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; show me wherefore thou contendest with me.

Eccles 6:10 That which hath been is named already, and it is known that it is man: neither may he contend with him that is mightier than he.

Is 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

And the answer that God gave Job back in chapters 38 and 39 was: I brought you to this world, and I can take you out. I am God and I do not have to explain myself to any man.

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Shalom

[rejoice44]

I have been discussing this among friends and we have several different views about what the meaning behind the story is.

??????
anyone care to try and explain this book and the meaning.

To much is made of just a few verses, while ignoring the majority of the text. Was Job really the person that we seem to see him as? List the good things God says about him, and then list the bad things God says about him for a comparison.

Here is the question that was posed to me.

Why would God have to prove anything to Satan about one of his righteous people in the way he did it?

God didn't have to prove anything to Satan, it was for our learning and Job's salvation.