The Book of Job...explain????

[rejoice44]

I believe I hid it in this summary: "In death the wicked cease, the weary rest, prisoners sleep quietly, all are equal without rank."

You have so easily changed the written words. How does “the servant is free from his master” become “all are equal without rank”? With this philosophy you can make the bible say whatever. The bible then becomes your thoughts and not God’s thoughts.

I have not conceded to the post-Mosaic system as to Job's context. We do not Job's ancestry clearly. What I believe is not what I can prove, so I make no premise. One covenant differs from another covenant, dispensation from each other, old from new....

If you closely examine the words of Job concerning “servant” you will have reason to believe that the book of Job is post Mosaic, or at the least concurrent.

The word “sakiyr”(hireling) occurs seventeen times in the bible. The first time it occurs is in Exodus 12:45 prior to the law, and refers to partaking of the Passover Lamb. The next nine times it is found it has to do with the Mosaic Law. The next three times it occurs are found in Job, spoken by Job regarding himself. The last four times it occurs are in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Malachi respectively.

The word servant occurs 40 times in Genesis, without the word “hireling” ever occurring.

The concept of types of servants did not originate with the Mosaic Law. The types of servants were mandated by man, while the rules governing them were mandated by God.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Godly principles are not dispensational. Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Job was a servant by creation not calling. If we say vocation it was the times of the Gentiles or the Sons of Noah. I do not mix things that differ.

How was Job’s creation different from yours or mine?

I do not find Job under the law revealed as at Sinai; God's natural law existed then as now, as Paul teaches. The poetic story is not judicial but spiritual, revealing the Enemy, the Accuser, the Slanderer, Provoker, Liar, Snake, at work as God foretold to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Should I put Job under Moses then I would lose many nights of sleep to explain the Book of Job.

Only the Jews were under Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law does not dispense with the spirit of the law which is written in the hearts of man from the beginning of time.

That Job wanted to be free from his master, and the fact that his master was God, is quite significant.

You cannot so easily dismiss the servant argument when so much is made of Job being God’s servant.

I still intend tp proceed in digest of the dialogues, unless requested to desist.

That is your prerogative, but is it wise to bulldoze through the book without digesting all the details?

[mjmselim]

You have so easily changed the written words. How does “the servant is free from his master” become “all are equal without rank”? With this philosophy you can make the bible say whatever. The bible then becomes your thoughts and not God’s thoughts.



If you closely examine the words of Job concerning “servant” you will have reason to believe that the book of Job is post Mosaic, or at the least concurrent.

The word “sakiyr”(hireling) occurs seventeen times in the bible. The first time it occurs is in Exodus 12:45 prior to the law, and refers to partaking of the Passover Lamb. The next nine times it is found it has to do with the Mosaic Law. The next three times it occurs are found in Job, spoken by Job regarding himself. The last four times it occurs are in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Malachi respectively.

The word servant occurs 40 times in Genesis, without the word “hireling” ever occurring.

The concept of types of servants did not originate with the Mosaic Law. The types of servants were mandated by man, while the rules governing them were mandated by God.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Godly principles are not dispensational. Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



How was Job’s creation different from yours or mine?



Only the Jews were under Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law does not dispense with the spirit of the law which is written in the hearts of man from the beginning of time.

That Job wanted to be free from his master, and the fact that his master was God, is quite significant.

You cannot so easily dismiss the servant argument when so much is made of Job being God’s servant.



That is your prerogative, but is it wise to bulldoze through the book without digesting all the details?

1. First, I am not writing a commentary; I summarized the thread of thought as it appears to me, good or bad, clear or unclear; not laboring to exact every nuance; not wanting to draw from others what I could have easily done in this digital age. verses 17-19 are interpreted and abbreviated just as I have done using different words by Driver & Gray ICC, Keil & Delitzsch, Barnes, Clarke, Gill, and others. It didn't make sense to give my understanding by just quoting the verses. But What thought should I have? Is it not search to find His meaning? Now I could have mentioned that these three verses are marked off with a Hebraic poetic device or sign, namely the adverbial sham, there, like shem, name; but it is there emphatically, telling us that the Holy Spirit treats the three things as one.

2. Very well I'll reconsider the servant in Job and Scripture. At 3:19 it is w'ebed chaphshi meadonaiu ( ebed freed or released from his adonai; servant or slave freed or liberated or emancipated from his lord or master ); this line follows the previous three sets of the class or rank of the small and great, prisoners and oppressors, and the wicked and the weary. The locale of Sham is Death and the Grave or Sheol. It is the equalizer of all men of all ranks at all times. Thus I wrote originally: "In death the wicked cease, the weary rest, prisoners sleep
quietly, all are equal without rank.". And to make clear add to the sentence "....whether slave or lord, servant or master, bond or free."
Ebed (with Ayin) comes from Abad (with Ayin) which we first read in Genesis 2 of Adam to till the ground, later to work and labor in the field, then to serve, then slave. The notion of slavery is of sin and harden hearts. But God changes whatever we mess up.
Sakir (hireling, hire, hired-hand, wage-earner, employee, etc) comes from Sakar (the wage, hire or pay, the reward or earnings, income, etc.) it is first seen clearly in Genesis 15:1 thy Sekar (reward, wage, payment) shall be exceedingly great. It is also seen in Jacob and his family in Genesis 30: Leah hired Jacob for the night from Rachel for her son's mandrakes; and after conception and at birth she named the the child Is-Sachar (Is-Sakar), for God repaid her wage or hire, her sakar. And we could give many more examples.
It is a mistake to think that the Passover was not of the Law, for upon it was to Law given. I have no quibble with human institutions or terms for the many relations that exist amongst mankind. Human government is we agree ordained of God. Servant or slave, hire or worker in regards to obedience to God is perfected in Messiah and no other, surely not Job nor the nation of Israel.

3. But then Scriptures speaks of the Times and Seasons, of Now versus Then, of Here or There. Perhaps I should yield to your suggestion and linger awhile with you on these matters for I sense some hermeneutical impasse in regards to the Old and the New. And of course principles and laws and rules change as changes come or go. as Paul instructs.

4. Job was about 4,000 years earlier, before Christ, before Moses.

5. God's Servant as typified in Job, as it was in Abraham, is most wonderful, filled with the fragrance of Christ and God's eternal concerns. It is not a bull's-eye to say that Job wished to escape God as is Master or Tyrant, but rather to say he wished to escape his Misery, his calamity, loss, sufferings, sorrows..... The times from Noah to Moses is all about Job and his friends, and the Times of the Gentiles begin there.

So I will put away my bulldozer and get into van or buggy to spend a little quality time in God's business in the word. It appears three weeks later I'm overcoming the pneumonia but the side effects of the medicine feels like death.

[rejoice44]

3. But then Scriptures speaks of the Times and Seasons, of Now versus Then, of Here or There. Perhaps I should yield to your suggestion and linger awhile with you on these matters for I sense some hermeneutical impasse in regards to the Old and the New. And of course principles and laws and rules change as changes come or go. as Paul instructs.

Satan is not dispensational, for he was in the garden of Eden, and he was there beholding all high things in Job's day. And we know that he will be there at the end of days. Satan was a serpent in the garden, and he was a cedar tree in the midst of the garden in Ezekiel 31. We find a great dragon in Revelation 12 who is called that old serpent, the Devil, and Satan. We should not be confused as to who leviathan is when we are told he is the crooked serpent, and the dragon in Isaiah 27:1.

In Job 3:8 Job mentions stirring up leviathan, and in Job 3:9 Job does not want the morning star to shine. The book of Job is very poetic, and yet full of hidden truths. We find in Isaiah 14:12 that Satan is a morning star. To understand the meanings of Job's words, we need to examine God's replies to those words.

Job said, Job 3:8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning³⁸⁸². (leviathan)

God said, Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan³⁸⁸² with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

In the following three verses we find the Hebrew word "shachar"used, and if you look closely you will see that it is talking of the morning star Lucifer, or for another name Satan.

Job said, Job 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark ; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day⁷⁸³⁷:

God said, Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring⁷⁸³⁷ to know his place;

God said, Job 41:18 By his neesings a light doth shine , and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning⁷⁸³⁷.

His eyelids are like those of Lucifer.

Notice that after God asks Job if he has caused the dayspring (morning star-Lucifer) to know his place, that God says,
Job 38:13 "That it (he) might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it."

Then God says in Job 38:15 "And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken."

There are two things to be noted in Job 38:15. 1.That light is withheld from the wicked. Job said, Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.


2. God said "the high arm shall be broken". Job said, Job 26:2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?

God said to Job, "Hast thou an arm like God?--"(Job 40:9)

Satan is an integral part of the book of Job, and we see it when God asks Job if he is going to take leviathan (The one who beholds all high things[Satan], and is king over all the children of pride[Satan]) for a servant forever?

[Illuin]

The experience of Job and the cosmic drama in Heaven that BROUGHT that experience TO Job is the very secret to the meaning of life; the very reason we are all here. Job, though it tells of actual events, is a parable that parallels the Garden of Eden. It is the story of Adam and Eve (of mankind) in miniature. Have you ever wondered why God put Job through all of that suffering? Have you ever wondered why God puts His children through this earthly experience; with all of its troubles, sorrow, pain, and injustice?

The Bible says that Job was perfect and holy. But how could Job know WHY he was perfect and holy? How could Job know WHAT is was that made him perfect and holy? He didn't have a point of reference, a contrast, something to measure his perfect holiness as COMPARED to something that was NOT perfect and holy. Perfect and holy... COMPARED TO WHAT? He had knowledge of GOOD, but he did not have the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, so there was nothing to show him WHY he was perfect and holy. How can you know a thing is GOOD if there is no CONTRAST?

Just like Job, Adam was upright and holy in his pre-fallen state. Job was perfect and holy also - but he was untested. The time arrived for him to learn and understand WHY he was holy - it was time for him to partake of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" so he could experience the DIFFERENCE between good and evil, and to know what makes certain things holy, and what makes certain things profane.

Job is a parable of man's whole existence on Earth, beginning with man's perfect, holy state in the Garden. It is the story about fallen man, about ADAM. Without knowing what the concept of evil is all about, how could anyone know what the concept of good is all about? To understand what it is that makes something good, you have to have something to measure against, something to compare the good to. If there was no night, how could you understand the concept of day and night? If there was no evil, how could you understand the concept of good and evil?

It is the whole glorious plan of God to show His children the difference between what is holy, and what is not - to learn the difference between good and evil. Not just learn, but EXPERIENCE the difference. There is no better teaching tool than experience. God didn't place the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil "IN THE MIDST" of the Garden of Eden simply to tempt and taunt Adam without a great purpose. Of course God knew they would eat of the fruit. It was His plan that they ate of the fruit.

God creates evil for the purpose of contrast, providing the back-drop in front of which He reveals His love and grace. Without the fall of man, a side of God's love and mercy would never have been known.

Just as God sent Satan down to Job (Job 1:12; 2:6,7), He sent Satan (the serpent) down to Adam and Eve. The ensuing theological discussions and pondering after Job was in his fallen state represent all of the theological discussions and pondering man would engage in over the course of history, in their fallen, blinded state. Job lost everything (as Adam did) but was given much more that he had in his pre-fallen state, just as Adam (mankind) will be given much more than he had; even more than he had in his pre-fallen state in the Garden of Eden.

The problem with Man's religion is that it views our experience on Earth in such a shallow, petty way. Man's religion sees it as a courtroom of doom (i.e. - if you're good you go to heaven, if you're bad you go to hell ). But in reality, our experience on Earth is not a courtroom, but a school of learning. The Bible tells us that God Himself takes responsibility of our fallen state and unbelief:

"For God has CONSIGNED ALL MEN to unbelief, only that He may have MERCY on them ALL alike." (Romans 11:32)

That is a deeply profound passage above, and few comprehend the magnitude of what is said. It was GOD'S DOING that mankind fell and ALL MEN would be consigned to unbelief - so He may have mercy on them ALL alike! God is entirely responsible for the FALL of ADAM and humanity.

All of this happened to His creation on Earth so God could reveal wondrous things about Himself (mercy, sacrifice, and love) that would have otherwise remained unknown.

It was God's intention and plan that Adam fall. The book of Job shines light on what happened in the Garden of Eden. Even though the events of Job actually occurred, it is a similitude that parallels the Garden. It is the story of the Garden of Eden in miniature. It is a parable of the Garden, that actually occurred. God deliberately hands over Job, a perfect and upright man (Adam) into the hands of Satan (the serpent). It was not Satan's idea to persecute Job! It was God Himself who sent Satan down to Job, just as God sent the serpent down to Adam and Eve. The fall of man was God's plan from the beginning.

Why?...........

"For God has CONSIGNED ALL MEN to unbelief, only that He may have MERCY on them ALL alike." (Romans 11:32)

It was God's plan that man should fall so He could demonstrate His MERCY to ALL! How could we be assured a revelation of Christ if we weren't pre-programmed to fail?

[rejoice44]

The Bible says that Job was perfect and holy. But how could Job know WHY he was perfect and holy? How could Job know WHAT is was that made him perfect and holy? He didn't have a point of reference, a contrast, something to measure his perfect holiness as COMPARED to something that was NOT perfect and holy. Perfect and holy... COMPARED TO WHAT? He had knowledge of GOOD, but he did not have the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, so there was nothing to show him WHY he was perfect and holy. How can you know a thing is GOOD if there is no CONTRAST?

Just like Job, Adam was upright and holy in his pre-fallen state. Job was perfect and holy also - but he was untested. The time arrived for him to learn and understand WHY he was holy - it was time for him to partake of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" so he could experience the DIFFERENCE between good and evil, and to know what makes certain things holy, and what makes certain things profane.

One little problem with your premise, Job wasn't holy. You can't take one verse which says Job was perfect and upright and apply your own meaning to it. There are forty two chapters to the book of Job and they are all there for our benefit.

Job wasn't holy, rather Job was an unforgiven sinner.

Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?

Job had partaken of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in his youth.

[rejoice44]

4. Job was about 4,000 years earlier, before Christ, before Moses.

Throwing out what people think and only evaluating the evidence, what evidence do you you have for your statement?

5. God's Servant as typified in Job, as it was in Abraham, is most wonderful, filled with the fragrance of Christ and God's eternal concerns. It is not a bull's-eye to say that Job wished to escape God as is Master or Tyrant, but rather to say he wished to escape his Misery, his calamity, loss, sufferings, sorrows..... The times from Noah to Moses is all about Job and his friends, and the Times of the Gentiles begin there.

Job lines up far better with God's servant Nebuchadnezzar, than Job lines up with Abraham. Job declared God unjust, and placed himself above God. Nebuchadnezzar did the same thing, and became as behemoth.

So I will put away my bulldozer and get into van or buggy to spend a little quality time in God's business in the word. It appears three weeks later I'm overcoming the pneumonia but the side effects of the medicine feels like death.

May your pneumonia become a remote memory.

[Illuin]

Originally posted by rejoice44,

One little problem with your premise, Job wasn't holy. You can't take one verse which says Job was perfect and upright and apply your own meaning to it. There are forty two chapters to the book of Job and they are all there for our benefit.

Job wasn't holy, rather Job was an unforgiven sinner.

Actually, it is you who are applying your own meaning, a meaning which is contrary to what God Himself stated.

You may "presume" Job was "not holy," just like Job's three friends; Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar - but God never says this. We can explicitly trust God's estimation of something or someone. I will certainly take God's word for it ahead of the opinion of you, the opinion of Job's miserable "comforters," and even of Job's opinion of himself. You seem to agree with Job's friends, or at least with what Job felt and expressed about himself before Almighty God. They believe that Job had sin in his life, which is exactly what you are doing.

God - the highest and final authority - said he was perfect. The term "perfect" means complete, entire, not lacking. The Greek word translated "perfect" is a strong one meaning absolutely finished. The first verse of the book of Job reveals Job's character; he "feared or reverenced God" - and he "eschewed or turned away from evil." This character remained with him throughout the book with persistency. Even his wife added her testimony when she said, "Do you still retain your integrity?" Job was integral within himself. Not only is the parallel between Job and Adam significant, but also the parallels between Job and God's Christ are significant: "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience through the things which He suffered; and being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Hebrews 5:8-9).

If you ignore the parallel between Job and Adam by viewing this through carnal eyes, you are depriving yourself of very important spiritual wisdom. The spiritual significance within this similitude is obvious and undeniable. We see the parallel even within the location of the Garden of Eden — in the EAST of the land of Eden. "And the Lord God planted a garden EASTWARD in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed" (Genesis 2:8). In the opening statement of Job we find that "there was a man in the land of Uz (fertile place), this man was the greatest of all the men OF THE EAST" (Job 1:1,3).

[rejoice44]

[QUOTE]

Actually, it is you who are applying your own meaning, a meaning which is contrary to what God Himself stated.

You may "presume" Job was "not holy," just like Job's three friends; Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar - but God never says this. We can explicitly trust God's estimation of something or someone. I will certainly take God's word for it ahead of the opinion of you, the opinion of Job's miserable "comforters," and even of Job's opinion of himself. You seem to agree with Job's friends, or at least with what Job felt and expressed about himself before Almighty God. They believe that Job had sin in his life, which is exactly what you are doing.

I believe Job when he said God had not forgiven his iniquities. Job claimed he was righteous but Job never claimed he was sinless.

God - the highest and final authority - said he was perfect. The term "perfect" means complete, entire, not lacking. The Greek word translated "perfect" is a strong one meaning absolutely finished.

We find the book of Job written in Hebrew and not Greek. The word we find here in the Hebrew is "tam" and is translated as "plain", or "quiet" the first time it is used in Genesis 25:27 in reference to Jacob. The stronger word "tamiym" means perfect, or without blemish, and is found in reference to Noah, and in reference to the Passover Lamb which represent Christ. It is also found in the book of Job three times. Job uses it in reference to himself, but it should be noted that God did not use it in reference to Job. Elihu also uses it in reference to God's knowledge. The Hebrew word "tam" does not have the meaning you want to apply to it. If the Hebrew word "tamiym" had been used you might have a case.

[rejoice44]

If you ignore the parallel between Job and Adam by viewing this through carnal eyes, you are depriving yourself of very important spiritual wisdom. The spiritual significance within this similitude is obvious and undeniable. We see the parallel even within the location of the Garden of Eden — in the EAST of the land of Eden. "And the Lord God planted a garden EASTWARD in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed" (Genesis 2:8). In the opening statement of Job we find that "there was a man in the land of Uz (fertile place), this man was the greatest of all the men OF THE EAST" (Job 1:1,3).

You don’t have it right. When Cain was sent out, it was eastward that he was sent.

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

When Abraham separated his sons from Isaac, it was eastward to the east country.

Genesis 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Judges 6:3 And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them;

Midian was a son of Keturah by Abraham. The Midianites were therefore of the sons of Abraham sent to the east country.

Amalek was a son of Eliphaz, who was a son of Esau. Esau was Edom. Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Lamentations 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.

It becomes obvious, at least to me, that Job was most likely an Edomite, and represents the daughter of Edom to whom the cup of wrath was passed in Lamentations 4:21.

The land of Uz is mentioned only three times in the bible. Once in Job 1:1, once Jeremiah 25:20, and once in Lamentations 4:21 were it refers to the daughter of Edom receiving the same cup of woe that Israel received. The parallel verses in Lamentations and Job are a clear indication that the cup of wrath that both Israel and Job received was nearly identical.

It is fitting that Job, as the greatest man of the east, should represent all of Edom.

Job was the greatest man of the east because of his wealth as described in Job 1:3. What does the bible say about rich men?

Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Job was stripped of his wealth and this opened the door for Job to get a better perspective of God. But for Job, a man full of pride, it took even more.