The Book of Job...explain????

[webbguy4]

Elihu says "I am in place of God" and you think Job was the self-righteous one? nah

I have read commentators who think that God's first words when he shows up are directed to Elihu. "who is this that darkens my counsel speaking words without knowledge" I don't fall into that camp, but if Elihu had the slightest bit of humility to him he should have at least been worried about that.

And yeah, there is a lot of scripture between the beginning and the end but we can't get to discussing it without a common frame of reference. I prefer to start with the assumption that what God said is right and God said Job was right. If you say the friends were right then you go down a dark path. the friends falsely accused Job and grow increasingly angry and abusive toward a grieving man motivated by their own envy and self righteousness.

[rejoice44]

[QUOTE]

Elihu says "I am in place of God" and you think Job was the self-righteous one? nah

Job asked for a man such as Elihu, and God sent Elihu. There was nothing self-righteous about Elihu, if he was speaking the words God gave him to speak.

Job asked for a man that would not terrorize him. Job would have no reason to fear a younger man without rank. Job asked for two things. 1. For God to "Withdraw his hand far from me, and let not thy dread make me afraid.(Job 13:21) Elihu's reply to this request. "Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee." (Job 33:7)

Job said, "Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me."(Job 13:22) Elihu said, "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up."(Job 33:5)

I have read commentators who think that God's first words when he shows up are directed to Elihu. "who is this that darkens my counsel speaking words without knowledge" I don't fall into that camp,

And wisely so you don't fall into that camp. Even Job acknowledged that it was he, whom God was referring to. "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." (Job 42:2)

but if Elihu had the slightest bit of humility to him he should have at least been worried about that.

Not if God sent him, and he was speaking God's words.

And yeah, there is a lot of scripture between the beginning and the end but we can't get to discussing it without a common frame of reference. I prefer to start with the assumption that what God said is right and God said Job was right.

My bible says upright, and upright does not have the same meaning as right. I know a lot of upright people that are often wrong.

If you say the friends were right then you go down a dark path. the friends falsely accused Job and grow increasingly angry and abusive toward a grieving man motivated by their own envy and self righteousness.

What I say about the three friends is that most of what they said was right, but they, like Job, were without wisdom. They had no answers for Job, and yet they had condemned Job.

Paul said, Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

The three friends were guilty of judging another man's servant, and yet I believe as Job said, that God sent them as witnesses against him. John 8:17 “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.” In this case there was three witnesses. Who knows you better than your best friends?

[mjmselim]

Today is my usual day off; just got back from the dentist; here is a reply.
I appreciate your diligence in garnishing and presenting scripture in your reasoning. First to respond to some details in your posts before I answer the question and support my interpretation. (( Some might be pleased to know that I had another hour talk with my daughter in her struggle with God's behavior towards Job.)) The 42 points list is adequate to follow the story, but I will examine in another way. This brings me to an objection and a different resolution to Job' Ten Times in the speeches.

"23. How long will you vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words? (Job 19:2) (It is interesting to note that in verse three Job says, "These ten times have ye reproached me:" When you do the math it is only five times. We are only hearing half of the story.)"

The Ten Times are: Two Cycles ( Third Cycle concludes debate)

01. Job 3:2 And Job spake, and said,.....Job 3:26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
02. Job 4:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,......Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it [is]; hear it, and know thou [it] for thy good.
03. Job 6:1 But Job answered and said,....Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I [shall] not [be].
04. Job 8:1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,....Job 8:22 They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.
05. Job 9:1 Then Job answered and said,...Job 10:22 A land of darkness, as darkness [itself; and] of the shadow of death, without any order, and [where] the light [is] as darkness.
06. Job 11:1 Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,...Job 11:20 But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope [shall be as] the giving up of the ghost.
07. Job 12:1 And Job answered and said,...Job 14:22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
08. Job 15:1 Then answered Eliphaz the Temanite, and said,....Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit.
09. Job 16:1 Then Job answered and said,....Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.
10. Job 18:1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,....Job 18:21 Surely such [are] the dwellings of the wicked, and this [is] the place [of him that] knoweth not God.

The Third Cycle begins: Job 19:1 Then Job answered and said, Job 19:2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words? Job 19:3 These ten times have ye reproached me: ye are not ashamed [that] ye make yourselves strange to me.....

Job's questions and the answers are found in the dialogue; Job 3 is Job's Lamentation produced after his Three Friends heard of his evil calamity, visited him to mourn with him and comfort him. But seeing him shocked them to tears and cries and threw them into depression and a week of silence seeing his extreme grief. Job cursed is Birthday and regretted his Origin. It is poetic and transcendent for sure, but it is Job's sorrow that will reveal the heart of his friends.

Job's despair of life is his soul's bitterness and his lonely trouble. The details of each line and the poetic proverbial form of maxims and wisdom-sayings are able to be explored as windows to his and our experiences. But we are interested here and now how Eliphaz the first, answered or responded to Job's words and and Job's response to his friend's argument. The Temanite queries the Afflicted by asking; If we try to say a word to you will you be sad? But how can we not say it? We know you and your good life, but now your fear and care, your name and shame and game has caught up with you; your sin has found you out..... Job's reply: My grief and calamity is heavy; Shaddai shot me, Eloah (Ellah, Allah) scares me; I cry because it hurts!; my desire now that Ellah kill me!; why should I live like this?; what am I?; who helps or understands?; where is my friend's pity?; but instead I get this: "Job forsakes the fear of Shaddai"; my brothers and friends are a deceitful useless dry brook and waterless stream; you are evil towards me, like enemies of Tema and Sheba; ye friends are nothing, ye are shocked at my ruin; but did I ask you to come visit me to donate out of pity? or save me from foes? please, teach me. I'll listen, help me understand my error or sin; what are you doing ganging up on me, your friend?; can't you see I am not lying?; try again, I am innocent, I am like you. Job then slowly turns from them and starts to turn his eyes upward to God and turns his talk to prayers.
This is how I read Eliphaz first response and Job's rebuttal. The debate or dialog continues in the same form touching different opinions and perceptions. The 42 questions may be answered from the full Bible, but to understand Job we must restrict our focus to his time and world. I reject the idea that Job is a work of days of Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. I reject that it is Solomon's work. I agree with the old tradition and with those like Lightfoot that see it is Mosaic of Midianite origins. I do not doubt later hands at work. It is clear Job did not write it, but Job's words are carefully and accurately transmitted. The age of the Patriarchs from Abraham to Moses is plainly portrayed, of course in Hebrew-Aramaic-Arabian garb. It is the time when Shaddai dealt with man.
You say; "IMO the heart of the questions of Job are this, “How should a man be just with God?” (Job 9:2)" And so I agree; but he , and we, and all men, are caught up in a great play of life, and we have human righteousness against Divine righteousness. Christ in the Incarnation satisfied both. Job's friends and our condition is answered in Him.
We are able to learn more in the examination of the other speeches and development of the reasonings, such as the difference between each of Job's friends as they come to terms with Job's problem. Some great and famed men have thought to answer Job and found the challenge was indeed great and difficult. I do not trivialize Job's condition or God's dillemma. Grace.

[rejoice44]

(( Some might be pleased to know that I had another hour talk with my daughter in her struggle with God's behavior towards Job.))

When I was a young fellow, I too questioned God, not about Job, but the world in general. How can it be fair? I didn't see how God could be fair, when there was places that had never heard the Gospel. I came to God. night after night in tears, asking God, how is it fair. I would fall aspleep in tears for many nights, and then one night God answered me. God flooded my soul with the knowledge of his goodness. That night I was born again. That night I was given a peace that has uplifted me to this day. I can honestly say I have never questioned God again, "on why". May God speak to your daughter. God bless.

[mjmselim]

Thank you. I'll relate your kindness and conversion to her. She is a believer, recently rebaptized by a group called All Peoples Church. I too, since December 7, 1969 found Him by He finding me in my unbelief and rebellion, in sin and death. He reversed the curse and has given so much more than I had or Adam lost. His words are good.

[ewq1938]

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I believe the key to understanding the book of Job is to believe Elihu, when he said, “I am in the place of God”, and then hear the words he speaks, as the words of God.

I agree .

[ewq1938]

Does it matter whether he was saved or not in the beginning of the book?

No. The book deals with one important period of his life and how he reacted to it.

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10.6)
Jesus said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matt. 15:24)

This is long before the period we are talking about and it doesn't preclude anyone from accepting Christ.

There was no Gentiles brought into the church, without converting to Judaism, prior to the ministry of Paul.

Many accepted Christ on Pentecost, which involved no "church" nor conversion to Judaism.

Correct and it is how Job believed in the beginning of the book of Job, but not how he believed after his conversion.

What is different in Job's beliefs at the beginning of the book and the end?

What did Paul state that was not inspired, other than when he so stated that he wasn’t sure whether it was inspired?

1Co 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

Paul never says it was not a fact. What he says is that he chooses the righteousness of God over his own righteousness, at least that is how I interpret it. Paul is saying his righteousness is as filthy rags, compared to God’s righteousness.

That means what he had thought made him righteous was not true, unfactual.

[rejoice44]

The 42 points list is adequate to follow the story, but I will examine in another way. This brings me to an objection and a different resolution to Job' Ten Times in the speeches.

"23. How long will you vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words? (Job 19:2) (It is interesting to note that in verse three Job says, "These ten times have ye reproached me:" When you do the math it is only five times. We are only hearing half of the story.)"

The Ten Times are: Two Cycles ( Third Cycle concludes debate)

I see no reason not to take literally what Job speaks. When we alter what is said we rewrite the bible. Job said, "These ten times ye have reproached me." When, in actuality we see only five times. The fact that we are not told everything that was said is a reason to believe it is a true story.

[rejoice44]

No. The book deals with one important period of his life and how he reacted to it.

I see the book of Job as the battle over Job's soul.

This is long before the period we are talking about and it doesn't preclude anyone from accepting Christ.

No it doesn't preclude anyone from accepting Christ.

Many accepted Christ on Pentecost, which involved no "church" nor conversion to Judaism.

There were only Jews and proselytes that came into the church at Pentecost. There is no way the Jews would have tolerated Gentiles at Pentecost when the law said they were to have no dealings with them.

In Acts 2 after mentioning all the nations that the Jews came out of to attend Pentecost we hear these words in Acts 2:10, "--,Jews and proselytes,"

What is different in Job's beliefs at the beginning of the book and the end?

In the beginning Job clothed himself in his own righteousness, and it was Job that wore the crown, and in the end Job clothed himself with God's righteousness, and gave the crown back to God.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.

Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel. (How does one give counsel that is without knowledge?)

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Doesn't Job sound like he is sitting as God? Job condemns God, but praises himself. God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?"

Proverbs 30:21-22 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth;--.

At the end Job said, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear. That means Job didn't know God, he had just heard about him from others.) but now mine eye seeth thee.(Job now has a personal relationship with God.) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Before we know God we are unsaved, but the saved have a personal relationship with God.

1Co 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

I qualified my question by stating, "other than when he so stated that he wasn’t sure whether it was inspired?"

That means what he had thought made him righteous was not true, unfactual.

As far as Paul knew, the only way to be righteous was to keep the law. He said he was better at keeping the law than any other man. Paul was trying his best to be perfect. Paul had a zeal for God, but it was without knowledge. In this way I see him as Job.

Job said, Job 23:12 "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." (Isn't the commandment of God's lips equal to the law of God?) Phiippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

[rejoice44]

I agree .

Since we agree that Elihu is the key to Job why not work from common ground?

What do you see as the key elements of Elihu?

[webbguy4]

tell your daughter she's right, what happened to Job was not fair, God himself says so within the book.

there are other reasons that people suffer

God afflicted Job to lay himself on trial before the best man on earth at the time so that Job would reason out the plan for God's reconciling himself with his flawed creation. Follow Job's reasoning thu the debates with Eliphaz and friends. At first Job knows only despair, but goaded into awakening his powers of reasoning by the false accusations of his friends Job falls back on his experience as a judge. Job is faced with what appears an irresolvable problem, How can the omnipotent God he has faithfully served be just and loving when Job has suffered so terribly?

Job thru the force of his logic and from his experience as a judge resolves the issue thus: he needs a redeemer (known legal concept of the day) someone who sees as a man sees. someone who can restrain the hand of God.

with only his undeserved pain to prod him and the mind God gave him, Job creates the promise that gave us Jesus. When we read of what a kind and caring man Job was, my hypothesis Job would be satisfied that his suffering and his words would become the outline of the plan whereby all humankind is offered redemption. Job accepted God's defeat of Leviathan as the evidence that God ruled even over death and hell and all could be restored.

so why did Job suffer ? he suffered as christ did, for us.

[ewq1938]

Since we agree that Elihu is the key to Job why not work from common ground?

What do you see as the key elements of Elihu?

It's really that everything he said was right and it is said that God continues what Elihu said after Elihu spoke so someday I'll compare their words and see what is similar.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.


Elihu is the only one not corrected by God, and that includes the several chapters that God confronts and corrects Job. Elihu is spared simply because he was the only one not to speak wrongly.

[rejoice44]

It's really that everything he said was right and it is said that God continues what Elihu said after Elihu spoke so someday I'll compare their words and see what is similar.

Here are a few comparisons of verses that I find similar.

God mirrowing the speech of Elihu.

Elihu said, “Job justified himself rather than God.” (Job 32:2)
Elihu said, “Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2)

God said, “Will you also disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?” (Job 40:8)

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Elihu said, “His wrath was kindled against the three friends because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job.” (Job 32:3)

God said, “--, My wrath is kindled against thee (Eliphaz), and against thy two friends, for you have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:7)

Upon examination of these two statements you will find that they are much more similar then what they first appear. Both Elihu’s wrath and God’s wrath is directed at the three friends. Elihu said the friends had not found the answer, and God said the friends have not spoken of me right. If the friends had found the answer then they would have spoken that which is right concerning God. The difference between the two statements lies in the fact that Job had not spoken right at the time that Elihu makes his statement, but by the time God speaks, Job has spoken that which is right concerning God. Job had repented and put on God’s robe of righteousness in place of his own righteousness.

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Elihu said, “Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” (Job 34:35)

God said, Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:1-2)

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Elihu said, “Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.” (Job 34:12)
Elihu said, “For he added rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.” (Job 34:37)

God said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” (Job 40:2)

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Elihu said, “If thou can answer me, set your words in order before me, stand up.” (Job 33:5)

God said, “Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and answer thou me.” (Job 38:3)

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Elihu said, “Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: and it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether (for correction), or (for his land), or (for his mercy).” (Job 37:11-13)

God said, “Have you entered into the treasures of the snow? Or have you you seen the treasures of the hail, which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?” (Job 38:22-23)

God said, “To satisfy the desolate and waste ground: and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?” (Job 38:27)

You have to look closely or you will miss it. Elihu gives three reasons for the rain. The first reason for the rain is correction, the second reason for the rain is the land, and the third reason for the rain is mercy.

God gives three reasons also, the first is “time of trouble” which equates to Elihu’s time of correction, the second is for the land, and the third is for the tender herb to spring forth and blossom.

Perhaps if you look really deep you can see a connection here that might just relate to why some people suffer so. One reason would be for correction, one might be for the land(This one is not so clear.), and one might be for God’s glory.

[webbguy4]

God corrected Job? hmm not directly, i don't see where God said to Job , you said blank and blank is not true. God's correction to Job was a series of questions designed to reveal to Job that God's purposes were beyond his understanding. and when Job confesses at the end, he does not say he spoke falsely , he stated he spoke things to wonderful for him to understand.

[ewq1938]

God corrected Job? hmm not directly

Yes directly for several chapters!

CEV makes it quite clear...


Job 38:1 From out of a storm, the LORD said to Job:
Job 38:2 Why do you talk so much when you know so little?
Job 38:3 Now get ready to face me! Can you answer the questions I ask?


Job 40:1 I am the LORD All-Powerful,
Job 40:2 but you have argued that I am wrong. Now you must answer me.
Job 40:3 Job said to the LORD:
Job 40:4 Who am I to answer you?
Job 40:5 I did speak once or twice, but never again.
Job 40:6 Then out of the storm the LORD said to Job:
Job 40:7 Face me and answer the questions I ask!
Job 40:8 Are you trying to prove that you are innocent by accusing me of injustice?
Job 40:9 Do you have a powerful arm and a thundering voice that compare with mine?
Job 40:10 If so, then surround yourself with glory and majesty.
Job 40:11 Show your furious anger! Throw down and crush
Job 40:12 all who are proud and evil.

Job 42:1 Job said:
Job 42:2 No one can oppose you, because you have the power to do what you want.
Job 42:3 You asked why I talk so much when I know so little. I have talked about things that are far beyond my understanding.
Job 42:4 You told me to listen and answer your questions.
Job 42:5 I heard about you from others; now I have seen you with my own eyes.
Job 42:6 That's why I hate myself and sit here in dust and ashes to show my sorrow.