cure-real
Page 1 of 75 12345678910111251 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 1120

Thread: Satan’s being cast out of Heaven is it a future event,????

  1. #1

    Satan’s being cast out of Heaven is it a future event,????

    It’s amazing to me how many unbiblical ideas are casually believed even by many Fundamentalist Christians simply because Society has conditioned us to believe it.

    The idea of a War in Heaven sometime before Adam’s fall is a Gap Theory connected false Doctrine mainly popularized by Secular Western fiction. It began chiefly with Paradise Lost, but was further popularized by Tolkien’s Silmarilion’s fall of Melkor/Morgoth and Lewis’s Space Trilogy‘s Bent One.

    The Bible only ever in any detail discuses the Fall of Satan is Prophetic books, Isaiah 14:12, Ezekiel 28:13, Revelation 12. Only 1 isolated verse appears to place it in the past, Luke 18:10 “And I beheld Satan as lighting fell from Heaven”. But God often used past tense language in reference to future events, and Yeshua is God The Son made flesh, he came from Outside time, he’s seen all of History already play out.
    Job demonstrates the Satan still has free access to Heaven, and he’s still serving that function in the New testament, hence why he’s called the Accuser.

    The big problem with this false view to me is that conflict with the important fact that Adam’s sin is the origin of Sin and Death. Roman 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21. Genesis 3 is the origin of Sin, it’s not just the 1st Sin Adam or Eve committed, but I believe the Serpent’s first open act of rebellion against God as well. We don’t need a Prequel Trilogy to explain how The Serpent became a Sinner.

    Isaiah 14 follows 13, it affiliated Satan’s finale doom with the finale Doom of Babylon, which is yet future, Revelation 17 and 18. But the exact timing I feel requires Revelation 12 to figure out.

    Revelation 12 begins as a summer of all History, the Woman being Israel, the War in Heaven begins not only after “The Man Child”’s birth (3 B.C.) but after the ascension (30 A.D.) and after the Woman/Israel has fled to her hiding place in the Wilderness (Petra/Edom, Isaiah 63), which as we know from Matthew 24 is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation.

    In other words it’s the Middle of the Tribulation. Daniel 11 jumps from the Hellenistic age to end time sin verse 35. Verses 36 till the end I believe outline The Antichrist’s activities during the 1st half of The Tribulation, ending with setting the stage for his counterfeit Death and Resurrection. So when the 1st verse of Chapter 12 says “And at that time shall Michael stand up” I believe that corresponds directly to Revelation 12:7.

    Allot of people believe Satan will indwell in The Antichrist, but I se no Biblical basis for that either. Many End Times Christina movies and books like Left Behind and Revelation/Tribulation, and The Omega Code virtually make The Devil and The Antichrist the exact same character. But in my view Revelation 13 and 16:13 clearly paint The Dragon (Satan), The Beast of the Sea (Antichrist) and Beast of the Earth (The False Prophet) as 3 distinct individuals as a sort of counterfeit Trinity, with the last leading the world to Worship both of the 1st 2. And Revelation 19 and 20 give The Antichrist and The False Prophet a very separate fate from The Devil, their cast into the Lake of Fire after the Battle of Armageddon, their first people ever sent there, Satan is then bound in the Abyss/Tartaros for 1000 years and then after sparking 1 last rebellion he’s cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Last edited by Mithrandir-Olorin; Apr 18th 2011 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,940
    Blog Entries
    73

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    It’s amazing to me how many unbiblical ideas are casually believed even by many Fundamentalist Christians simply cause how universally Society has conditioned us to believe it.

    The idea of a War in Heaven sometimes before Adam’s fall is a Gap Theory connected false Doctrine mainly popularized by Secular Western fiction. It began chiefly with Paradise Lost, but was further popularized by Tolkien’s Silmarilion’s fall of Melkor/Morgoth and Lewis’s Space Trilogy‘s Bent One.

    The Bible only ever in any detail discuses the Fall of Satan is Prophetic books, Isaiah 14:12, Ezekiel 28:13, Revelation 12. Only 1 isolated verse appears to place it in the past, Luke 18:10 “And I beheld Satan as lighting fell from Heaven”. But God often used past tense language in reference to future events, and Yeshua is God The Son made flesh, he came from Outside time, he’s seen all of History already play out.
    Job demonstrates the Satan still has free access to Heaven, and he’s still serving that function in the New testament, hence why he’s called the Accuser.

    The big problem with this false view to me is that conflict with the important fact that Adam’s sin is the origin of Sin and Death. Roman 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21. Genesis 3 is the origin of Sin, it’s not just the 1st Sin Adam or Eve committed, but I believe the Serpent’s first open act of rebellion against God as well. We don’t need a Prequel Trilogy to explain how The Serpent became a Sinner.

    Isaiah 14 follows 13, it affiliated Satan’s finale doom with the finale Doom of Babylon, which is yet future, Revelation 17 and 18. But the exact timing I feel requires Revelation 12 to figure out.

    Revelation 12 begins as a summer of all History, the Woman being Israel, the War in Heaven begins not only after “The Man Child”’s birth (3 B.C.) but after the ascension (30 A.D.) and after the Woman/Israel has fled to her hiding place in the Wilderness (Petra/Edom, Isaiah 63), which as we know from Matthew 24 is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation.

    In other words it’s the Middle of the Tribulation. Daniel 11 jumps from the Hellenistic age to end time sin verse 35. Verses 36 till the end I believe outline The Antichrist’s activities during the 1st half of The Tribulation, ending with setting the stage for his counterfeit Death and Resurrection. So when the 1st verse of Chapter 12 says “And at that time shall Michael stand up” I believe that corresponds directly to Revelation 12:7.

    Allot of people believe Satan will indwell in The Antichrist, but I se no Biblical basis for that either. Many End Times Christina movies and books like Left Behind and Revelation/Tribulation, and The Omega Code virtually make The Devil and The Antichrist the exact same character. But in my view Revelation 13 and 16:13 clearly paint The Dragon (Satan), The Beast of the Sea (Antichrist) and Beast of the Earth (The False Prophet) as 3 distinct individuals as a sort of counterfeit Trinity, with the last leading the world to Worship both of the 1st 2. And Revelation 19 and 20 give The Antichrist and The False Prophet a very separate fate from The Devil, their cast into the Lake of Fire after the Battle of Armageddon, their first people ever sent there, Satan is then bound in the Abyss/Tartaros for 1000 years and then after sparking 1 last rebellion he’s cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Mithrandir-Olorin,
    Welcome to the forum! We are so glad you are here! Let's see . . .

    It seems to me that Satan has been cast out of heaven to the earth already--and this because he lost the war of the angels (Michael and his forces vs. Satan and his forces) of Rev. 12.

    And this war was fought because Jesus indicates in John 12 the following:

    John 12
    31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
    32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
    33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
    So, after Jesus rose from the dead, the following happened, yes?

    Eph. 4
    7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
    8 Therefore it says,
    “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
    HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
    AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
    9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
    This happened, of course, after Jesus' sacrifice for you and I. But also, while Jesus was in heaven (immediately after His resurrection), vindication of the Christ occurred--as shown in Matthew 26:64 (and the context) in combination with Daniel 7:13-14:

    Matthew 26:64 (and the context)
    59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.
    60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward,
    61 and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’”
    62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
    63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
    64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
    65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;
    66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”
    67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him,
    68 and said, “Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?”

    Dan. 7
    13 “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.

    14 “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.
    Yep.

    Thus, by combining the truth of Matt. 26 (with the context) and Dan. 7:13-14, we can see that this Kingdom that Jesus "ascended" to heaven to receive from the "Ancient of Days" (YHWH) was received directly after his atoning sacrifice for you and I during his 1st coming.

    Now, all of that made the "war of the angels" possible (it seems to me) in Rev. 12:

    Rev. 12
    7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
    8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
    “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
    11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
    12 “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
    So, since Jesus' received the "salvation, and the power, and kingdom of our God" from the "Ancient of Days" and so on, the "war of the angels" (between Michael and Satan, et al) was made possible--and Satan was cast to the earth.

    Yep . . .
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  3. #3

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Yeshua's death and Resurrection archie Satan's defeat but it isn't fully carried out till the end.

    YHWH refer to the entire Trinity.

    The Fall of Babylon is undeniable still yet future. Satan is still serving as the Accuser of our Brethren during the Church Age, which means he's still doing what he did in Job.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    10,024

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    Yeshua's death and Resurrection archie Satan's defeat but it isn't fully carried out till the end.

    YHWH refer to the entire Trinity.

    The Fall of Babylon is undeniable still yet future. Satan is still serving as the Accuser of our Brethren during the Church Age, which means he's still doing what he did in Job.


    Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    In order to determine when satan gets evicted from heaven, one has to determine when the above occurs, especially verse 17. The question then is, has satan at anytime made war with the remnant of her seed, which I'm assuming is the church?

  5. #5

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Santa is always at War with us to a Degree.

    The key event here is when Israel flees to Edom to hide following the Abomination of Desolation.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,940
    Blog Entries
    73

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    Yeshua's death and Resurrection archie Satan's defeat but it isn't fully carried out till the end.

    YHWH refer to the entire Trinity.
    The Fall of Babylon is undeniable still yet future. Satan is still serving as the Accuser of our Brethren during the Church Age, which means he's still doing what he did in Job.
    Mithrandir-Olorin,

    Well, if Satan has not been cast out already, then he will never be cast in the second death at the end at all . . . Just take a look at the words in bold below:

    Rev. 12
    7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
    8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
    Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
    12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.
    Yep. (Did you see it?)

    This passage is explicit in its declaration that the voice that John heard is one of the many saints (brethren!) who had died at Satan's hand already.

    Thus, the kingdom of God has come already . . . and Satan's destiny is set . . .

    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    10,024

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    Santa is always at War with us to a Degree.

    The key event here is when Israel flees to Edom to hide following the Abomination of Desolation.



    Just to clarify..my mind isn't made up yet. I can see where it may have occurred at Christ's ascension. I can also see where it might still be yet future to us even today. But one thing is for certain, I don't see it having anything remotely to do with time before Adam was created. I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks use this passage to support that, especially when the context supports no such thing.

    With that in mind, that my mind isn't made up yet, I for one would like to hear more of what you have to say on this subject. I always appreciate enlightenment if it can be backed with Scriptures.

  8. #8

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    I can't for the life me figure what point Billy Brown thinks he just made?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    4,556

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    I see Paul instructing the Thessalonians - who at one point thought that they were left behind and forgotten, by those who may have been trying to impersonate the Apostle Paul, and Paul had to write them and reaffirm what he taught them when he was with them>>>>

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible,
    Copyright 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    10,024

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    I can't for the life me figure what point Billy Brown thinks he just made?


    Why not just discuss with him point by point what he posted? That might be one way to try and figure out the point he was trying to make. His point could be just as valid as anyone else's point.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,940
    Blog Entries
    73

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    I can't for the life me figure what point Billy Brown thinks he just made?
    Thanks Mithrandir-Olorin,

    Let's see . . .

    The two passages below indicate that the authority of Christ has come already--do you agree with this?

    Rev. 12
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
    Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

    Matt. 28
    18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  12. #12

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    I think your trying to make a delta chronological that really isn't.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,940
    Blog Entries
    73

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    I think your trying to make a delta chronological that really isn't.
    What is a "delta chronological"?

    Also, how is the following (in bold) unrelated to each other?

    Rev. 12
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
    Now

    the salvation, and
    the power, and
    the kingdom of our God and
    the authority of His Christ

    have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

    Matt. 28
    18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying,

    All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Georgia, United States
    Posts
    69
    Blog Entries
    3

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    Mae govannen!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir-Olorin View Post
    It’s amazing to me how many unbiblical ideas are casually believed even by many Fundamentalist Christians simply because Society has conditioned us to believe it.

    The idea of a War in Heaven sometime before Adam’s fall is a Gap Theory connected false Doctrine mainly popularized by Secular Western fiction. It began chiefly with Paradise Lost, but was further popularized by Tolkien’s Silmarilion’s fall of Melkor/Morgoth and Lewis’s Space Trilogy‘s Bent One.

    The Bible only ever in any detail discuses the Fall of Satan is Prophetic books, Isaiah 14:12, Ezekiel 28:13, Revelation 12. Only 1 isolated verse appears to place it in the past, Luke 18:10 “And I beheld Satan as lighting fell from Heaven”. But God often used past tense language in reference to future events, and Yeshua is God The Son made flesh, he came from Outside time, he’s seen all of History already play out.
    Job demonstrates the Satan still has free access to Heaven, and he’s still serving that function in the New testament, hence why he’s called the Accuser.

    The big problem with this false view to me is that conflict with the important fact that Adam’s sin is the origin of Sin and Death. Roman 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:21. Genesis 3 is the origin of Sin, it’s not just the 1st Sin Adam or Eve committed, but I believe the Serpent’s first open act of rebellion against God as well. We don’t need a Prequel Trilogy to explain how The Serpent became a Sinner.

    Isaiah 14 follows 13, it affiliated Satan’s finale doom with the finale Doom of Babylon, which is yet future, Revelation 17 and 18. But the exact timing I feel requires Revelation 12 to figure out.

    Revelation 12 begins as a summer of all History, the Woman being Israel, the War in Heaven begins not only after “The Man Child”’s birth (3 B.C.) but after the ascension (30 A.D.) and after the Woman/Israel has fled to her hiding place in the Wilderness (Petra/Edom, Isaiah 63), which as we know from Matthew 24 is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation.

    In other words it’s the Middle of the Tribulation. Daniel 11 jumps from the Hellenistic age to end time sin verse 35. Verses 36 till the end I believe outline The Antichrist’s activities during the 1st half of The Tribulation, ending with setting the stage for his counterfeit Death and Resurrection. So when the 1st verse of Chapter 12 says “And at that time shall Michael stand up” I believe that corresponds directly to Revelation 12:7.

    Allot of people believe Satan will indwell in The Antichrist, but I se no Biblical basis for that either. Many End Times Christina movies and books like Left Behind and Revelation/Tribulation, and The Omega Code virtually make The Devil and The Antichrist the exact same character. But in my view Revelation 13 and 16:13 clearly paint The Dragon (Satan), The Beast of the Sea (Antichrist) and Beast of the Earth (The False Prophet) as 3 distinct individuals as a sort of counterfeit Trinity, with the last leading the world to Worship both of the 1st 2. And Revelation 19 and 20 give The Antichrist and The False Prophet a very separate fate from The Devil, their cast into the Lake of Fire after the Battle of Armageddon, their first people ever sent there, Satan is then bound in the Abyss/Tartaros for 1000 years and then after sparking 1 last rebellion he’s cast into the Lake of Fire.
    From the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ...

    18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” -Luke 10:18-20

    So I guess that ends it. Jesus said He saw Satan cast down from Heaven.

  15. #15

    Re: Satans being cast out of Heaven is a future event, not in the past.

    I addressed that verse.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 50
    Last Post: Dec 8th 2010, 02:15 PM
  2. Satan to be bound literally in the future for 42 months
    By ross3421 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: Jan 28th 2010, 07:43 PM
  3. If satan isn't in heaven...
    By JesusReignsForever in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: Apr 3rd 2009, 04:35 AM
  4. KINGDOM of heaven: literal and future
    By Nihil Obstat in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: Feb 22nd 2009, 07:02 PM
  5. Why did Satan leave heaven?
    By Todd Cornwell in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: Apr 23rd 2007, 03:39 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •