Satan’s being cast out of Heaven is it a future event,????

[John146]

I see. All I am saying is that I believe Matthew 25:1-13 and Luke 12:35-37 are speaking of the same thing.

I believe that, too.

I believe these are referring to the Second Coming (Rev 19) which at this point the marriage of the Lamb I believe to have already taken place in heaven.

Your only basis for believing that the marriage has already taken place before the second coming is your interpretation of Luke 12:36, but Matt 25:1-13 and Rev 19 do not support your interpretation of Luke 12:35-37 because those indicate that the wedding will not take place until Christ returns, not before He returns. We have to be able to reconcile our beliefs with all scripture.

I don't believe Matthew 25 is talking about the bride. These virgins I believe represent Israel waiting for the return of the bridegroom. This does not mean they are the bride. I believe this is referring to the wedding supper which they will be part of as Luke 12 also states about them sitting and eating.

I believe you are making a big mistake by not seeing the wise virgins as representing the bride of Christ, or at least the part of the bride of Christ that "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15). Compare Matt 25:1-13 to Rev 19:7-8. In each case the bridegroom, Christ, does not come until certain people are ready. Who is it that is said to be ready just before His return in Rev 19? The bride, right? How about in Matthew 25:1-13? There, it's the wise virgins who are the ones who are ready for His coming. So, I don't understand why anyone couldn't see that the wise virgins represent the bride of Christ since they are portrayed as being the ones who have made themselves ready for His coming just as Rev 19:7 says about the bride of Christ.

What do you believe is the difference between the wise virgins and foolish virgins? Who do the wise virgins represent and who do the foolish virgins represent?

Because Luke 12:36 says he is returning FROM the wedding. And then after he returns they will sit and eat. Now sitting and eating sounds like a wedding feast/supper.

Do you understand that there isn't going to be a literal wedding at His return that would be just like a wedding that occurs between a man and woman now, right? We will be wedded with Christ immediately after going to meet Him "in the air" and we will sit and eat with Him in a spiritual sense at that point as well. There's no basis for seeing the marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper of the Lamb as two entirely different events that occur at two entirely different times. Matt 25:1-13 says that He takes people to the wedding while Luke 12:35-37 gives an indication of Him taking people to the wedding feast but, really, He will be taking us to the wedding and wedding feast since the 2 will happen one right after the other. Again, we have to be careful about thinking the wedding of Christ with His bride is just like a regular earthly wedding. It's not. It's a spiritual wedding.

Also the reason why "wedding" here refers to the marriage of the Lamb is because it makes a distinction between that and the "sitting and eating" which is the marriage supper. These are two events.

Then why do we not see that portrayed in Matt 25:1-13?

Also, it would not fit scripture to say they are waiting for him to return from the wedding supper.... no it is them waiting for the bridegroom to return from the wedding with His bride at the Second Coming.

His bride is waiting for Him to return from the wedding preparations. He will return once the bride is deemed ready for the wedding. That's what we see in Matt 25:1-13 and Rev 19 so why would the Luke 12 passage be any different? Again, it's interesting that you insist that the reference to "the wedding" in Luke 12:36 has to refer to the wedding itself but in Matt 25:1-13 it doesn't. Why is that?

There doesn't necessarily need to be a delay. When the marriage of the Lamb completes in heaven then Christ returns with his Bride and the marriage supper will take place.

Who are those He is coming for then? Not people who belong to Him and have a relationship with Him? Do you understand that the bride of Christ is made up of anyone who has a personal relationship with Christ? Do those who are represented symbolically by the wise virgins in Matt 25:1-13 not have a personal relationship with Christ?

And there might not be a time separation. It don't say. The marriage of the Lamb completes in heaven and then Christ returns with them. I do have to say that the marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper are two events. Just like at any wedding.

But since we're not talking about a normal wedding here but instead a spiritual wedding, I don't see that they should be seen as two entirely different events. Again, Matt 25:1-13 and Rev 19 indicate that He will return once the bride is ready. Ready for what? It seems obvious to me that He will return once the bride is ready for the wedding. But you have the wedding already taken place at the point where the bride is deemed to be ready. I don't get that at all.

I have very good vision... lol

Not of what it says in Rev 19:7-8. There is nothing there that says the wedding has already taken place at that point. It only says that the time of the wedding is at hand because the bride has made herself ready. There is absolutely no description of the wedding having actually taken place yet at that point. Why can't you acknowledge that?

Not so. Luke say he is returning from the wedding. Returning from where? Heaven of course. The wedding takes place in heaven. Where do you think it takes place at?

Matt 25:1-13 says He is taking people to the wedding. So, are Matthew and Luke contradicting each other or is the reference to "the wedding" not referring to just the wedding itself in at least one of the passages?

I understand what you are saying but I am not just using Revelation 19. Also, it does not give us a time frame from Revelation 19:7-8 and 19:11.

Does it have to give a time frame? What else would the bride be ready for except for the return of Christ and to be married to Christ?

Another reason why I do believe the marriage of the lamb takes place prior to Revelation 19:11 is because 19:9 says "blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb". I really don't know why this would be said here if the marriage of the lamb had not taken place yet. They are two events.

That's the mistake you're making, seeing the marriage of the Lamb and marriage supper of the Lamb as two completely different events happening at completely different times. I disagree strongly with that because scripture simply doesn't support that theory.

[thedee]

Then why do we not see that portrayed in Matt 25:1-13?

Maybe I worded it wrong but I believe Matt 25 and also Luke 12 both refer to the wedding supper.

His bride is waiting for Him to return from the wedding preparations. He will return once the bride is deemed ready. That's what we see in Matt 25:1-13 and Rev 19 so why would the Luke 12 passage be any different? Again, it's interesting that you insist that the reference to "the wedding" in Luke 12:36 has to refer to the wedding itself but in Matt 25:1-13 it doesn't. Why is that?

No No. Both are referring to the wedding Supper.

Who are those He is coming for then? Not people who belong to Him and have a relationship with Him? Do you understand that the bride of Christ is made up of anyone who has a personal relationship with Christ? Do those who are represented symbolically by the wise virgins in Matt 25:1-13 not have a personal relationship with Christ?

Of course they do.

But since we're not talking about a normal wedding here but instead a spiritual wedding, I don't see that they should be seen as two entirely different events. Again, Matt 25:1-13 and Rev 19 indicate that He will return once the bride is ready. Ready for what? It seems obvious to me that He will return once the bride is ready for the wedding. But you have the wedding already taken place at the point where the bride is deemed to be ready. I don't get that at all.

It doesn't say He will just return once. It just says He will return. 1Thes4 is when Christ returns for the bride. This is a different event than the Second Coming of Rev 19.

Not of what it says in Rev 19:7-8. There is nothing there that says the wedding has already taken place at that point. It only says that the time of the wedding is at hand because the bride has made herself ready. There is absolutely no description of the wedding having actually taken place yet at that point. Why can't you acknowledge that?

I thought you said there was no wedding? Anyways Luke 12 says He is returning from the wedding. Lines up nicely with Rev 19.

Matt 25:1-13 says He is taking people to the wedding. So, are Matthew and Luke contradicting each other or is the reference to "the wedding" not referring to just the wedding itself in at least one of the passages?

Both are referring to the wedding Supper when Christ will return at the Second Coming with His bride.

Does it have to give a time frame? What else would the bride be ready for except for the return of Christ and to be married to Christ?

Rev 19 is a heavenly scene. These who are clothed in fine linen are in heaven. So why are they waiting for Christ when they are already in heaven?

[divaD]

No I don't believe so. The wedding will take place in heaven and then the bridegroom will return with the bride(clothed in fine linen) at the Second Coming (Rev 19). At this point we can read Matthew 24:29-31.

To be honest I don't exactly follow you on where you see a contradiction in Matthew 25 and Luke 12. I believe both are awaiting the bridegroom to return which at that point the marriage of the Lamb is complete and the marriage supper will take place.

Let's go with you're perspective to start things out. I'm assuming this is your perspective, so feel free to correct any misrepresentations on my part.

Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately

From your perspective....when he will return from the wedding....this occurs after the pretrib rapture, which occurred 7 years prior to this. This would square with Rev 19 in your mind, since the bride would be seen leaving heaven at that point. So let's consider Rev 19 for a moment.


Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Generally speaking, when the wife has made herself ready, does that usually occur before a wedding, or after a wedding? I would think a wife first makes herself ready, then the marriage occurs. Look what happens next.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

If the 7 year trib represents the marriage that's supposed to occur at the rapture, then why is the wife now being seen as having made herself ready for the marriage, in relation to leaving heaven? Why is she getting married 7 years later, after having been with the groom for the prior 7 years?


Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Getting back to your perspective, I'm assuming...and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them....that this is referring to the marriage supper that follows.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

From your perspective again...the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut....that this represents the beginning of the pretrib rapture, with the marriage occurring right after. If so, Revelation 19 would be contradicting that. Look at my explanation above, in regards to that. If the whole idea is that the pretrib rapture happens so that the bride can be married to the bridegroom, then that theory collapses, in light of Revelation 19, which shows the 2nd coming, with the bride not even being married as of yet. How you all miss that, I'm not certain. In essence, you have the bride shacking up with the bridegroom, before the marriage even takes place, so to speak. Sad but true.

[Diggindeeper]

DivaD, you have hit on one of the main problems with the pre-trib rapture theory. The bride will NOT, as you put it so well, 'shack up' with the groom for seven years prior to the marriage!

Its just not going to happen!

[John146]

Maybe I worded it wrong but I believe Matt 25 and also Luke 12 both refer to the wedding supper.

Can you acknowledge that Matt 25:1-13 makes no specific mention of the wedding supper?

No No. Both are referring to the wedding Supper.

Show me where Matt 25:1-13 refers to the wedding supper.

Of course they do.

Then they are part of the bride of Christ. No one who has a personal relationship with Christ is not part of the bride of Christ. That's the requirement for being part of the bride of Christ, having a personal relationship with Him.

It doesn't say He will just return once. It just says He will return. 1Thes4 is when Christ returns for the bride. This is a different event than the Second Coming of Rev 19.

No, it is not. Scripture does not teach that He will descend from heaven more than once in the future.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His returning a second time, not a third time.

I thought you said there was no wedding?

When did I say that? I only said that it is not a literal wedding like what we see between a man and woman today. It's a spiritual wedding that is compared symbolically to an earthly wedding.

Anyways Luke 12 says He is returning from the wedding. Lines up nicely with Rev 19.

It doesn't line up at all with Rev 19 since Rev 19 does not describe any wedding as taking place but only describes the bride being ready for the wedding. Can you acknowledge that Rev 19 does not actually describe a wedding as having occurred? To say that the time of the wedding has come and that the bride has made herself ready is not the same as saying that the wedding has already occurred. I don't know why you can't see that.

Both are referring to the wedding Supper when Christ will return at the Second Coming with His bride.

Again, where are you seeing that Matt 25:1-13 refers to the wedding supper?

Rev 19 is a heavenly scene. These who are clothed in fine linen are in heaven. So why are they waiting for Christ when they are already in heaven?

The wife of Christ includes both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until His coming. It doesn't say the wife is only in heaven at that point. Even the dead in Christ, whose spirits are in heaven, are waiting for Christ to return because that is the time when we all will be changed and will have our immortal bodies like He already has and then we will all be with Him forever.

[John146]

DivaD, you have hit on one of the main problems with the pre-trib rapture theory. The bride will NOT, as you put it so well, 'shack up' with the groom for seven years prior to the marriage!

Its just not going to happen!

Yep, that sums it up. The pre-trib interpretation of Rev 19:7-8 simply makes no sense whatsoever. That passage clearly is speaking of the condition of things right before the return of Christ (which is described soon after) and it says the wife has made herself ready at that point. Ready for what? The marriage supper? The honeymoon? Why would the wife have to make herself ready for that? No. It should be clear that it's speaking of the bride making herself ready for getting married to Christ. What else? Once the bride is ready then Christ will return. That's what we see in Matt 25:1-13 as well. There is no description of the wedding having taken place yet before Christ's return in Rev 19. But pre-trib somehow thinks the wedding has already taken place before that. How? That's not even possible when the bride will not even be ready for the wedding until it's time for Christ to return.

[quiet dove]

I know this is off OP, but since the thread has wound around ......

If the Rapture were to happen today, does not mean the marriage must take place a second later.

The Bride, believers, will stand before the judgement seat of Christ, giving account before God. These passages are clearly, in context, speaking of believers...the "brothers".

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.


The Bema seat comes from the Greek and relates to the athletic games. The believer will stand before Christ and either recieve reward or not receive reward. It is not a matter of salvation or punishment. It can be a time of lost rewards but not loss of salvation. Paul is drawing on the games, picturing the believer as competing in a spiritual contest, and believers will receive reward, or not.

There is no problem with some time elapsing between believers being raptured from the earth, and the marriage, and the Bride returning with Christ. Besides, we are not given a time frame of the marriage and Christ return to the earth with His Bride. In Revelation 19:9 it says "blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb", is the Bride, the Bride at her wedding or is she is also the guests?

Besides the difficulties already presented, and as relates to Rev 19... it is the argument of views other than with the pre trib rapture bunch...that it is the dead in Christ who return with Christ, and the living are then ....Idk, either gathered by the angels or caught up, though neither apparently happen "together" with the dead in Christ as seems to be indicated will be the case in Thess 4:17. At any rate, that leaves us with a problem regarding Revelation 19....

...because, if this is the case, that the dead in Christ are the only ones who actually return with Christ. Then Revelation 19:7-8 would only be speaking of half the Bride having made herself ready. And thus that half, the dead in Christ, returning with Christ. The rest of the Bride apparently not actually ready since that half, the living in Christ, would still be on earth....mortal not having been 'changed' to immortal and incorruptible.

[thedee]

Can you acknowledge that Matt 25:1-13 makes no specific mention of the wedding supper?

Never said it did. What I said tho is the parallel verses in Luke does.

Show me where Matt 25:1-13 refers to the wedding supper.

Luke says it just as you said it was parallel to Matthew. Take Lukes word for it

"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them."

It doesn't line up at all with Rev 19 since Rev 19 does not describe any wedding as taking place but only describes the bride being ready for the wedding. Can you acknowledge that Rev 19 does not actually describe a wedding as having occurred? To say that the time of the wedding has come and that the bride has made herself ready is not the same as saying that the wedding has already occurred. I don't know why you can't see that.

Likewise I don't know why you can't see Luke 12:35-38. He returns from a wedding and they sit to eat. hmmmmmmm

Again, where are you seeing that Matt 25:1-13 refers to the wedding supper?

Luke is the parallel passage so read it. Whether Matthew only said "wedding" doesn't matter. Luke clears it up. Scripture interprets scripture.

The wife of Christ includes both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until His coming. It doesn't say the wife is only in heaven at that point. Even the dead in Christ, whose spirits are in heaven, are waiting for Christ to return because that is the time when we all will be changed and will have our immortal bodies like He already has and then we will all be with Him forever.

Not sure how the bride can be made ready when the entire bride is not there.

[thedee]

If the whole idea is that the pretrib rapture happens so that the bride can be married to the bridegroom, then that theory collapses, in light of Revelation 19, which shows the 2nd coming, with the bride not even being married as of yet

How does the "wife has made herself ready" occur if the entire bride is not there? I am referring to Rev 19:7-8. The entire bride must be in heaven at this point otherwise I don't know how the bride would be made ready.

[divaD]

I know this is off OP, but since the thread has wound around ......

If the Rapture were to happen today, does not mean the marriage must take place a second later.

The Bride, believers, will stand before the judgement seat of Christ, giving account before God. These passages are clearly, in context, speaking of believers...the "brothers".

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.


The Bema seat comes from the Greek and relates to the athletic games. The believer will stand before Christ and either recieve reward or not receive reward. It is not a matter of salvation or punishment. It can be a time of lost rewards but not loss of salvation. Paul is drawing on the games, picturing the believer as competing in a spiritual contest, and believers will receive reward, or not.

There is no problem with some time elapsing between believers being raptured from the earth, and the marriage, and the Bride returning with Christ. Besides, we are not given a time frame of the marriage and Christ return to the earth with His Bride. In Revelation 19:9 it says "blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb", is the Bride, the Bride at her wedding or is she is also the guests?

Besides the difficulties already presented, and as relates to Rev 19... it is the argument of views other than with the pre trib rapture bunch...that it is the dead in Christ who return with Christ, and the living are then ....Idk, either gathered by the angels or caught up, though neither apparently happen "together" with the dead in Christ as seems to be indicated will be the case in Thess 4:17. At any rate, that leaves us with a problem regarding Revelation 19....

...because, if this is the case, that the dead in Christ are the only ones who actually return with Christ. Then Revelation 19:7-8 would only be speaking of half the Bride having made herself ready. And thus that half, the dead in Christ, returning with Christ. The rest of the Bride apparently not actually ready since that half, the living in Christ, would still be on earth....mortal not having been 'changed' to immortal and incorruptible.

I read your entire reply, but I don't see how it matches the following.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

I would think that..Matthew 25:10 ...they that were ready..that that would be the same as...Revelation 19:7...and his wife hath made herself ready.

Matthew 25:10 distinctly says...went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. This would imply that the marriage takes place behind locked doors, so to speak. If Matthew 25:10 is referring to a pretrib rapture, then it shows going straight into a marriage ceremony at that point. It doesn't say anything about the passages you supplied as happening during that time.

What do you do with this part of the parable...Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us?

If you recall, the following happened first....

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came......

So in your opinion, since the pretrib rapture would have to happen in secret to begin with, why then did the foolish virgins get left behind? Does that imply that one must first believe in a pretrib rapture, in order to take part in it? What is it implying, since the foolish virgins get left behind? Obviously they would have to be believers, since they were at first waiting and watching as well.

And finally, what is Matthew 25:11 implying about the believers that get left behind? Could these represent non pretrib Christians? What does it mean? Do you think there will be another chance for these believers to get resaved during the tribulation? What becomes of them after this point?

[thedee]

Matthew 25:10 distinctly says...went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. This would imply that the marriage takes place behind locked doors, so to speak. If Matthew 25:10 is referring to a pretrib rapture, then it shows going straight into a marriage ceremony at that point. It doesn't say anything about the passages you supplied as happening during that time.

I know you are speaking to quitedove but I do not say this is referring to a pre-trib rapture here. That has already taken place at this point. This is referring to the bridegroom and the bride returning from the wedding and at this point the wedding supper will take place.

[thedee]

So in your opinion, since the pretrib rapture would have to happen in secret to begin with, why then did the foolish virgins get left behind? Does that imply that one must first believe in a pretrib rapture, in order to take part in it? What is it implying, since the foolish virgins get left behind? Obviously they would have to be believers, since they were at first waiting and watching as well.

This is just silly to make such a claim. We are saved by grace through faith..... nobody has ever said we are saved by our belief on when the rapture takes place.

During the tribulation many will be saved and sealed... read Revelation 7.

[quiet dove]

I read your entire reply, but I don't see how it matches the following.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

I would think that..Matthew 25:10 ...they that were ready..that that would be the same as...Revelation 19:7...and his wife hath made herself ready.

Matthew 25:10 distinctly says...went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. This would imply that the marriage takes place behind locked doors, so to speak. If Matthew 25:10 is referring to a pretrib rapture, then it shows going straight into a marriage ceremony at that point. It doesn't say anything about the passages you supplied as happening during that time.

What do you do with this part of the parable...Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us?

If you recall, the following happened first....

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came......

So in your opinion, since the pretrib rapture would have to happen in secret to begin with, why then did the foolish virgins get left behind? Does that imply that one must first believe in a pretrib rapture, in order to take part in it? What is it implying, since the foolish virgins get left behind? Obviously they would have to be believers, since they were at first waiting and watching as well.

And finally, what is Matthew 25:11 implying about the believers that get left behind? Could these represent non pretrib Christians? What does it mean? Do you think there will be another chance for these believers to get resaved during the tribulation? What becomes of them after this point?

First it would require that these verses even speak of the rapture

Secnd....Christ says of the five foolish virgins that "I don't know you", so ... those five foolish virgins mush have never even belonged to Christ in the first place. So those five foolish virgins are not believers left behind. Someone is not 'sorta' saved, they either are or they are not, and only those who are not would Christ say "I do not know you".

Third, there is not even a bride mentioned in the parable. We have to assume the virgins are indeed the bride as opposed to those who would actually be the guests at the wedding. Some translations do not just say that they went with Him into the wedding, but into the wedding feasts, or the wedding banquet.

[Diggindeeper]

I just now went back and reread all of Rev. 7 and I do not see anywhere there is any bunch of people who are saved (or sealed!) during a tribulation. Only those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed................

I just do not see how pre-trib believers can possibly say this is a great-tribulation-revival. That must be assumed and put there.

[Diggindeeper]

How does the "wife has made herself ready" occur if the entire bride is not there? I am referring to Rev 19:7-8. The entire bride must be in heaven at this point otherwise I don't know how the bride would be made ready.

But...according to the pre-trib theory, the ones 'left behind' do not enter heaven. They are in a 'mortal kingdom' here on earth.

No one has ever explained to me how those who are supposed to be beheaded and all that during the tribulation ever get to 'heaven'. They get killed...then what?

They would have no hope, because the 'rapture' has already happened and for that to have happened, the resurrection has had to occur because the dead in Christ SHALL rise first. So they would have missed out on thre 'rapture' and also the 'resurrection' of the saints.

So it appears those left behind and killed would have no choice but to stay here. Dead. No hope of a gathering together with Christ OR the resurrection. No hope for them.

If that was true. But its not.