Satan’s being cast out of Heaven is it a future event,????

[thedee]

They wait for the time when "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.". So, how does that support your view? What about the ones who are not killed? Are they not "their fellowservants also and their brethren"?

So once they are done waiting then what? I believe that answer to be that the wife will be then ready and Christ return with the entire bride at the Second Coming (rev 19).

Yes. So? You keep saying things without telling me what you're really getting at. Please get to the point. Spell it out if you have to because I'm not seeing it so far.

Once Revelation 6:11 is completed as it says the bride will be ready because they all will be in heaven united(union between man and women) with Christ.

The question is why must the Lord wait until all were killed that needed to be killed? Answer, then the entire bride will be in heaven for the marriage. (rev 19)

No. I don't see that it's saying that at all. What about those who aren't killed? They can't be part of the bride unless they're killed? I'm not seeing your point at all here.

The Rapture of 1Thes4 occurs before all this takes place. Those who are not killed during the tribulation and have not taken the mark of the beast and who turn to the Lord during this period will be those who go into the millennium. I Believe those are the ones who are the guest at the marriage feast.

When you say "all" who are you referring to exactly?

The entire bride. There is a reason for why the Lord waits until all who are to be killed are killed. Why must the Lord wait for this to happen? Thus also are they not given white ropes after their death? or do they receive their white robes while yet here on this earth?

The ones mentioned in Rev 6 are obviously dead. Still not seeing your point.

My point is in order to receive a white robe are you not in heaven at this point? In order for the bride to be ready would they not have to have their white robes?

It is your belief that the fine linen represents immortal bodies, right?

It is the righteous acts of the saints. I would think that if this is the case (as rev 19 says) that they must have been rewarded and then garment received?

The ones mentioned in Rev 6:9-11 are given their robes at that time

Yes, because of their death. Now in order for the bride to have received this they must all be in heaven???? In order for the bride to be made ready they must all be clothed in fine linen.

If that is referring to immortal bodies then is it your belief that the rapture occurs at the fifth seal?

Rapture occurs before any seals, trumpets or bowls.

Sure. What is your point?

My point is that if they are clothed and the wife is ready that they have been already given their rewards. With that said the entire bride must be in heaven in order for this to occur.

[thedee]

When it talks about the fine linen being "the righteousness of the saints" (Rev 19:8) what do you think "the righteousness of the saints" refers to? Have we not already been made righteous because of having our sins covered by the blood of Christ?

So how does that explain that they were given white robes after their death in Rev 6?

Being clothed does not have to refer to something physical.

Never said it did.

My point is in Revelation 6 they did not receive white robes until after their death. The same as in Revelation 19. They are in heaven at this point and received their white robes. If the bride is ready then they must all have their white robes on. They must all be in heaven. They must have all received their rewards.

[Diggindeeper]

Posted by thedee:

So once they are done waiting then what? I believe that answer to be that the wife will be then ready and Christ return with the entire bride at the Second Coming (rev 19).

The Rapture of 1Thes4 occurs before all this takes place. Those who are not killed during the tribulation and have not taken the mark of the beast and who turn to the Lord during this period will be those who go into the millennium. I Believe those are the ones who are the guest at the marriage feast.

Where does it say this in the Bible?
1- "The rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4 occurs before all this takes place."

Scripture, please. I say this can't be true, because plainly and clearly verse 3 says:
"3 Let no man deceive you ... that day shall not come, except... that man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition!" (2 Thess 2:3)

The saints (whom he is making war against and overcoming) MUST be here to be killed! They can't be killed and then warred against and being overcome if they have already been 'raptured.' That really does not make sense. Maybe you have become confused? Or more likely, the pretrib rapture theory is what is confusing when held up to close scrutiny?

2- Who are those who are not killed during 'the tribulation' (Scripture, please.) and 'not taken the mark of the beast'?

3- Where does it say in the Bible that those "who turn to the Lord during this period (the period you refer to as 'the tribulation period') will be those who go into the millennium." (just one verse or two as proof, please.)

[thedee]

Who are those who are not killed during 'the tribulation' (Scripture, please.) and 'not taken the mark of the beast'?

For starters.... read Matthew 24:30

[Diggindeeper]

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It does not say who those were who were 'not killed during 'the tribulation'. Not a word about that..........

[thedee]

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It does not say who those were who were 'not killed during 'the tribulation'. Not a word about that..........

Obviously if it is after the tribulation then they made it though the tribulation. Here they are alive would you not agree?

[Diggindeeper]

Of course...its those who 'remain' unto the coming of the Lord!' At the last trump:

1 Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[thedee]

Of course...its those who 'remain' unto the coming of the Lord!' At the last trump:

1 Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What comes first... the 7th trumpet of Revelation or the trumpet blast in Mat 24:31?

[Eyelog]

What does it mean to be clothed in fine linen? The fine linen represents the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:8). You apparently think it represents immortal bodies but the text only says it represents the righteousness of the saints. So, based on what the text actually says you don't have to be in heaven in order to be clothed in fine linen.

John, I'm sure you are aware that it is only in your kjv or the Message Bible that Rev 19:8 is translated as the "righteousness" of the Saints. In the NASB, NIV and NES, NLT, and CEV, for example, it is translated as the "righteous acts" or "good deeds" of the Saints. This is a critical distinction.

The white linen is not the result of the cleansing by the new birth. Rather, the white linen is EARNED. Those who do not do righteous acts won't be wearing fine linen.

But our rewards are not given to us on earth. They are held for us in heaven:

Matthew 5:12

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:23

Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Matthew 6:20

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;

As to WHEN we will wear fine linen, it won't be until it is given to us, . And we won't receive it or any of our rewards until the Day of the Lord:


2 Cor. 5:

¹⁰ For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Cor 3:

¹³ each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. ¹⁴ If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. ¹⁵ If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Tim 4:

[QUOTE]in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
[/QUOTE]

Revelation 11:

And the nations were enraged, and (1) Your wrath came, and (2) the time came for the dead to be judged, (3) and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and (4) to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 22:

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

WHEN is that Day of the Lord? Well, the Day of the Lord is the same Day as when the gathering in the clouds, aka the 'rapture' will occur. The rapture and the Day of the Lord will happen in the same relatively short period. For the saints will clearly go through the persecution by the lawless one but will not have to endure the true Wrath of God. The Saints will go up, be clothed in linen (which we are already positionally in possession of, just as we possess all our rewards held for us in heaven, along with our righteousness, etc.). Then, the saints accompany Christ to defeat the nations and rule and reign in the Millenium. Then, comes the final judgment. At that point the unrighteous are judged and destroyed, the earth destroyed and remade, and the Saints receive their ultimate rewards and inheritances.

The key to all the rapture debate is simply the question of whether we Saints will have to endure persecution by the Anti-Christ. Answer: Of course, you horse! The anti-christ not coming to attack the Jew alone. In fact, he attacks them only to destroy those Jews and all Gentiles of all races and nations, who do or would believe on Jesus Christ. He is not the anti-Jew per se. He is the anti-Christ!!! So, even as he may cause the nations to persecute Israel, his purpose is not to eradicate Jews, but to eradicate those who do call or would call upon the name of the true Lord, Jesus Christ. This must be remembered. His purpose is to destroy all faith in Jesus Christ. Those Jews who do not come to faith in Christ will be lost. But Satan seeks to destroy Israel because, as Paul says, all Israel will be saved, not at all meaning those who died without faith in Christ. Read all of Romans 11 for wisdom on this, "so that you will not be wise in your own estimation". At least read this:

¹³

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, ¹⁴ if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. ¹⁵ For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? ¹⁶ If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
¹⁷ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, ¹⁸ do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. ¹⁹ You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” ²⁰ Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; ²¹ for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. ²² Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. ²³ And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ²⁴ For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
²⁵ For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; ²⁶ and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
²⁷ “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” ²⁸ From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; ²⁹ for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ³⁰ For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, ³¹ so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. ³² For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Read about the Day of the Lord and when it will come, and its self-same calendar as the 'Rapture.' What ought believers, who will still be here while the Anti-Christ persecutes all Christians, to do? How ought we to live our lives until Jesus comes to defeat the anti-Christ?

Acts 2:

¹⁶ but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ¹⁷ ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
¹⁸ EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
¹⁹ ‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
²⁰ ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
²¹ ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Matthew 7:

²¹ “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.²² Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

2 tIM 1:

¹⁸ the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day

Matthew 24:

⁴² “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. ⁴³ But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

1 Cor 1:

the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, ⁷ so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, ⁸ who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. ⁹ God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 5:

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 THES 5:

¹ Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. ² For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. ³ While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; ⁵ for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; ⁶ so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. ⁷ For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. ⁸ But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. ⁹ For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. ¹¹ Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. ¹² But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, ¹³ and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. ¹⁴ We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. ¹⁵ See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. ¹⁶ Rejoice always; ¹⁷ pray without ceasing; ¹⁸ in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. ¹⁹ Do not quench the Spirit; ²⁰ do not despise prophetic utterances. ²¹ But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; ²² abstain from every form of evil.
²³ Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁴ Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

2 Peter 3:

³ Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, ⁴ and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” ⁵ For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, ⁶ through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. ⁷ But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
⁸ But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. ⁹ The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. ¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
¹¹ Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, ¹² looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! ¹³ But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. ¹⁴ Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, ¹⁵ and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, ¹⁶ as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. ¹⁷ You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, ¹⁸ but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 THES 2:

¹ Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, ² that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. ³ Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will (1) not come unless the apostasy comes first, and (2) the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. ⁵ Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? ⁶ And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. ⁸ Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and (3) bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; ⁹ that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, ¹⁰ and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, ¹² in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Isaiah 24:

²¹ So it will happen in that day,
That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
²² They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
²³ Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
And His glory will be before His elders.

Joel 1:15

Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Obadiah 1:15

“For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.

Zechariah 14:

¹ Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. ² For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. ³ Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. ⁴ In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. ⁵ You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

⁶ In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. ⁷ For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. ⁸ And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
⁹ And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. ¹⁰ All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. ¹¹ People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Malachi 4:

¹ “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” ² “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. ³ You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

⁴ “Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. ⁵ “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. ⁶ He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

God bless you.

[Eyelog]

Thedee, you said:

The Rapture of 1Thes4 occurs before all this takes place. Those who are not killed during the tribulation and have not taken the mark of the beast and who turn to the Lord during this period will be those who go into the millennium. I Believe those are the ones who are the guest at the marriage feast.

You are right on target. I respect your fearless embrace of what the Scriptrue says in all you8r posts on this thre3ad without regard to the theories and theologies of man. God bless you.

Just so we are clear though, the reason those still living without the mark can make it to the Millenial kingdom is because they are raptured or gathered up with Christ in the clouds, just before He comes down and defeats the beast, prophet and Satan himself. Then, after that, after those two go to the lake of fire and Satan is jailed, the Millenial kingdom occurs, chiefly governed by those who were beheaded for their faith, and not taking the mark, etc.:

⁴ Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ⁵ The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20.

Even those who survive until the rapture are not among those on the thrones. They are the ones being commanded by the kings on the thrones, perhaps with lots of authority, nevertheless. But the entire army of God, which will include those who never died as well as those who died in the Lord, will be there to be rule, each in the capacity he has earned.

Question: When is all of God's wrath poured out e.g., viles/bowls, etc.? Before the second coming/rapture? At the second coming/rapture? After the Millenium? What's your view?

[The Beginner]

Sure, but I don't believe Isa 65 is actually speaking of death and sinners being on the new earth. And there's no question that Isaiah 65:17-25 is speaking of the new heavens and new earth. John says there will be no more death on the new earth (Rev 21:4). Was he mistaken? I think he probably understood Isaiah 65:17-25 better than any of us, don't you?

I am interested to know your thoughts on this. I am going to post Isa 65:20-23 and ask questions along the way.

Isa 65:20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,

Will there be "infants" in the New Earth?

or an old man who does not live out his years;

Will there be "Old Men" on the new Earth?

he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth;

Will anyone be able "to die at one hundred" on the New Earth?

he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Can anyone be thought "accursed" in the New Earth?

Isa 65:21 They will build houses and dwell in them;

Will Glorified Saints "build houses" on the New Earth?

they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

Will glorified Saints "plant vinyards" and "eat its fruit" on the New Earth?

Isa 65:22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.

Do the "days of a tree" mean eternity?

Isa 65:23 They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.

Will glorified body saints "bear children" and have "descendants" on the New Earth?

[Eyelog]

How does anyone's choronology differ from this, or fill it out more? Where do oyu place the wrath of God?

Last days
1. Now
2. Birth pangs – much of the wrath poured out?
3. Man of lawlesness revealed – much of the wrath poured out concurrently?
4. Persecution of those who not worship the beast, and only those who are not among the elect (name written in Lamb's book of life) will overcome that. – much of the wrath poured out concurrently?

Second Coming
5. Gathering of the elect/rapture - Receive glorified bodies in the twinkling of an eye
6. Wedding supper of the lamb/fine linen of saints - some rewards received?
7. Christ defeats the nations attacking Israel, the beast, prophet and Satan (bound)
8. Millenial Kingdom - some rewards received?
9. Satan released, deceives Nations and Final battle
10. Final Judgment – much of the wrath poured out concurrently?
11. New Heavens/Earth - some rewards received?
12. Eternity future

[John146]

So once they are done waiting then what? I believe that answer to be that the wife will be then ready and Christ return with the entire bride at the Second Coming (rev 19).

Once the wait is over they (the souls of the dead in Christ) will then come with Christ from heaven and they will be united with their changed, immortal bodies and will meet Christ "in the air" along with those who are alive and remain.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Once Revelation 6:11 is completed as it says the bride will be ready because they all will be in heaven united(union between man and women) with Christ.

No, it does not say that. You are really reading a lot into the text. Rev 6:9-11 is only speaking of martyrs, not all believers. What about everyone else? Can you only be in the bride of Christ if you were martyred?

The question is why must the Lord wait until all were killed that needed to be killed? Answer, then the entire bride will be in heaven for the marriage. (rev 19)

How are you coming up with that answer? It's not in the text. Seems like you're just coming up with it out of the blue.

The Rapture of 1Thes4 occurs before all this takes place.

No, it does not. You have no evidence to back that up.

Those who are not killed during the tribulation and have not taken the mark of the beast and who turn to the Lord during this period will be those who go into the millennium. I Believe those are the ones who are the guest at the marriage feast.

All believers with wedding garments on are the guests at the marriage and marriage feast. I think it's time for you to learn what Matt 22:1-14 is about so that you can understand who the guests really are. Matt 22:1-14 is all about the offer of salvation that first went out to the Jews and they rejected it as a whole. So, God destroyed their city. Historical records show that this occurred around 70 AD. That is what Matt 22:3-7 is about. After the Jews rejected the gospel, it then went out to the Gentiles. You can read about that in the book of Acts. That is what Jesus was referring to when He talked about God sending his servants "into the highways" (Matt 22:10). The "highways" refer to the Gentile nations. The guests with wedding garments on are all people who have accepted the offer of salvation and are saved.

If you disagree then it would be nice if you went through the parable like I did here and explained what it means from beginning to end so that I can see how you come to your conclusions.

The entire bride. There is a reason for why the Lord waits until all who are to be killed are killed. Why must the Lord wait for this to happen? Thus also are they not given white ropes after their death? or do they receive their white robes while yet here on this earth?

Again, what about everyone else besides those who are killed? Are only those who are killed part of the bride? I'm just not seeing your point at all here.

My point is in order to receive a white robe are you not in heaven at this point?

Those martyrs are but they don't make up the entire bride. Do you understand that?

In order for the bride to be ready would they not have to have their white robes?

Sure, but I don't see why someone has to be in heaven in order for that to happen.

It is the righteous acts of the saints. I would think that if this is the case (as rev 19 says) that they must have been rewarded and then garment received?

What are you basing that on? I can't follow your logic at all so please try to be more specific as to how you are coming to this conclusion.

Yes, because of their death. Now in order for the bride to have received this they must all be in heaven????

Why?

In order for the bride to be made ready they must all be clothed in fine linen.

Sure, but why can't those who are alive and remain unto Christ's coming be ready? Why would they need to be in heaven? You can look at Matt 25:1-13 and it depicts believers who are still alive being ready for the bridegroom. I'm not understanding the idea that the entire bride has to be in heaven in order to be ready. That makes no sense to me at all.

Rapture occurs before any seals, trumpets or bowls.

There is no evidence at all to support that view.

My point is that if they are clothed and the wife is ready that they have been already given their rewards.

Already given their rewards? Where are you seeing that?

With that said the entire bride must be in heaven in order for this to occur.

That's simply not true. The text doesn't say that anywhere.

[Eyelog]

Thedee said:

It is the righteous acts of the saints. I would think that if this is the case (as rev 19 says) that they must have been rewarded and then garment received?

John said:

What are you basing that on? I can't follow your logic at all so please try to be more specific as to how you are coming to this conclusion.

John, I explain why Thedee is correct in my post below. Please feel free to respond to my proofs. I'd love a mutually edifying conversation on this.

[thedee]

No, it does not say that. You are really reading a lot into the text. Rev 6:9-11 is only speaking of martyrs, not all believers. What about everyone else? Can you only be in the bride of Christ if you were martyred?

I know what the text says. They were each given a white robe. Does that mean only those killed during this time period receive the robe?. No. Once the entire bride receives their robe then the complete union between Christ and the bride in heaven is complete. The wife will then be ready and the Lord will return with them (clothed in fine linen) at the Second Coming.

So again, the entire bride must be in heaven in order for the wife to have made herself ready and to be clothed in fine linen. I believe the robes are given to each after they are judged on their rewards... (righteous ACTS of the saints).

How are you coming up with that answer? It's not in the text. Seems like you're just coming up with it out of the blue.

Why else is the Lord waiting for them to be killed? Why not just rapture them at this point? Answer, because the rapture has already occured now the time has come to wait for the rest who are to be killed to be clothed and then the marriage(union) will be complete.

All believers with wedding garments on are the guests at the marriage and marriage feast. I think it's time for you to learn what Matt 22:1-14 is about so that you can understand who the guests really are. Matt 22:1-14 is all about the offer of salvation that first went out to the Jews and they rejected it as a whole. So, God destroyed their city. Historical records show that this occurred around 70 AD. That is what Matt 22:3-7 is about. After the Jews rejected the gospel, it then went out to the Gentiles. You can read about that in the book of Acts. That is what Jesus was referring to when He talked about God sending his servants "into the highways" (Matt 22:10). The "highways" refer to the Gentile nations. The guests with wedding garments on are all people who have accepted the offer of salvation and are saved.

If you disagree then it would be nice if you went through the parable like I did here and explained what it means from beginning to end so that I can see how you come to your conclusions.

As to the meaning of the parable, the king is God and His Son is the Lord Jesus. The wedding feast is a description of the festive joy which characterized the kingdom of heaven. The main thought is the setting aside of Israel.

The first stage of the invitation pictures John the Baptist and the 12 disciples graciously inviting Israel to the wedding feast. But the nation refused to accept.
The second stage of the invitation suggest the proclamation of the gospel to the Jews in the book of Acts.
....
As you mentioned AD70(v7).
...
Now Israel is set aside nationally and the gospel goes out to the gentiles. The man without a wedding garment is on who professes to be ready for the kingdom but who has never been clothed in the righteousness of God through the Lord Jesus Christ(2 Cor 5:21).

Many are called (the gospel invitation goes out to many) but few are chosen (some refuse the invitation). All who respond to the good news is chosen.


I would agree all are part of the wedding feast. On the other hand the bride is everyone(redeemed) up to the Second Coming of Christ. In order to be a bride you need to be clothed in fine linen... in order to be a guest you need clothed in a garment..... this doesn't change the seperation between the bride and the guest.

Again, what about everyone else besides those who are killed? Are only those who are killed part of the bride? I'm just not seeing your point at all here.

The rapture has taken place prior to this(1Thes4).... so we are in heaven at this point. The tribulation begins and those who do not take the mark of the beast and are killed are seen in Rev 6. Those who are not killed during this time period and have not received the mark of the beast and are alive at the time Christ returns with the bride(clothed in fine linen) will be those mortal bodies who enter the millennium are would be the guest at the wedding and there will be a big feast. (Mat 25; Luke 12).

Those martyrs are but they don't make up the entire bride. Do you understand that?

That is the whole point. They are told to wait awhile longer. What is the Lord waiting for. The Lord is waiting for the rest to be killed so that they may get their white robe and the wife will then be ready being they all will be clothed at this point. When all are killed all will be clothed and the wife will now be ready. The wife can only be ready when all are in heaven and this won't happen until all are killed.

Sure, but I don't see why someone has to be in heaven in order for that to happen.

That is exactly what happens in Revelation 6. Why didn't they receive their white robes before being killed?

What are you basing that on? I can't follow your logic at all so please try to be more specific as to how you are coming to this conclusion.

What is a righteous act(Rev 19:8)? Are we not rewarded on what we do while here on this earth? Are not the rewards received in heaven?

Why?

Again, I ask why where those who were killed in Rev 6 given their white robes AFTER they were killed and not before?

Sure, but why can't those who are alive and remain unto Christ's coming be ready? Why would they need to be in heaven? You can look at Matt 25:1-13 and it depicts believers who are still alive being ready for the bridegroom. I'm not understanding the idea that the entire bride has to be in heaven in order to be ready. That makes no sense to me at all.

Again, Matthew 25 is those who are alive at the Second Coming when Christ returns with His bride and the marriage feast will take place. Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the lamb.... notice this statement is made after the wife was made ready... meaning the entire bride is with Christ (union between man and wife).

Already given their rewards? Where are you seeing that?

What is a righteous act? They were given white robes because of the righteous acts of the saints. We are judge in heaven on our works and will receive rewards based off of what we have done here.

That's simply not true. The text doesn't say that anywhere.

Again, why the white robes once they were killed in Rev 6 and why didn't they receive them before death? Because they are still here on this earth and have yet to receive their rewards based off of their works. So in order for the wife to be made ready the ENTIRE bride must of received their rewards in heaven.