Satan’s being cast out of Heaven is it a future event,????

[John146]

Or we could say that all the people of faith are made perfect together at once . . .

Interesting . . .

When is that going to happen?

According to Paul in 1 Cor 15, it will happen at the last trumpet which signals the second coming of Christ.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming....51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[John146]

His lack of mentioning that particular event is not an argument that it did not happen in regards to immortally"raised".

I'm asking you why he wouldn't have mentioned it somewhere within 1 Cor 15:20-23 when he gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality? Seems like that would have been a good place to mention it if they had been resurrected unto bodily immortality.

Hebrews does not say other wise either. You are taking verses, completely unrelated, and trying to define an event in Matthew. These of Matthew being raised does not equate then to OT saints being made perfect without us.

If those who were raised from the dead, as recorded in Matt 27:52-53, were raised unto bodily immortality then please explain to me how that could be reconciled with Heb 11:39-40. What is your interpretation of Heb 11:39-40? What else could being made perfect refer to except for the redemption and perfecting of our bodies, which we know will occur at the coming of Christ?

[billy-brown 2]

According to Paul in 1 Cor 15, it will happen at the last trumpet which signals the second coming of Christ.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming....51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yep . . . makes sense to me . . .



. . . and these people represented in the verses below are on the list to be immortal physically:

Matt. 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

but ONLY when Christ returns the second time . . .

Yep . . .

[quiet dove]

I'm asking you why he wouldn't have mentioned it somewhere within 1 Cor 15:20-23 when he gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality? Seems like that would have been a good place to mention it if they had been resurrected unto bodily immortality.

If those who were raised from the dead, as recorded in Matt 27:52-53, were raised unto bodily immortality then please explain to me how that could be reconciled with Heb 11:39-40. What is your interpretation of Heb 11:39-40? What else could being made perfect refer to except for the redemption and perfecting of our bodies, which we know will occur at the coming of Christ?

Hebrews does not necessarily refer to resurrection, the same word translated perfect does not equate to immortal resurrection, though it can be used in that context.

The entire context is talking about faith, the OT saints of faith, which is clearly also stated in Matthew in the word "saints".

As far as resurrection goes, it does not take resurrection for the dead of faith to be perfect. They are in the presence of God with Jesus when they die. Their imperfect mortal bodies no longer exist
------------------------

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

We can't limit "perfect" or "perfected" to a resurrection sinlessness to immortality because Christ was always sinless, so there fore "perfected", while certainly includes the end result, must also include the process, and it is not limited to a process of becoming or being sinless, but the entire process of being completed according to God's purpose for the one being perfected.

Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

We need to consider the context and thus exactly what the entirety of "perfected" means in order to understand the full scope of what is being said. It is not limited to sinless, because Christ was always sinless, so perfected within these context must mean something more than our final state of being as resurrected immortal.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

Though our perfection will certainly be completed with resurrection.
Luk 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

If you are going to use this as an argument against an immortal resurrection of those spoken of in Matthew, then you are going to have another problem in the following verse 40 where it says.
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

How could we possibly have been provided "something better"?? Is there not but One Christ? Not but by the blood of One that a man may be cleansed? Of course there is only One. But within the context, being made "perfect" is a matter of including that process by which they were and we are, being made perfect. Limiting the concept "perfect" here to resurrection and then applying that limited concept to Matthew gives an incorrect understanding of Matthew.

Those of faith, which were being discussed in the previous verses, were not going to have God perfecting them without God also perfecting us. And we have been provided with something better. Those that were "saints" spoken of in Matthew were already perfected, their obedience and their faith, perfected them. They had no mortal body in the grave to be concerned with, and their spirit had been perfected. The spirit can be perfect without a body, however, even a perfect body cannot remain so if the spirit is corrupt. Christ had a perfect body, even a perfect mortal body, but it would not have remained so if His Person .....was not, or did not remain so. A spirit that has not been perfected cannot enter a new immortal, incorruptible resurrected body.

Perfection is a matter of the process God uses to bring us to a maturiting according to His purpose. The process and completion of His bringing us to be according to His purpose. We are being made perfect, conformed to Christ likeness. Christ became the in likeness of men in order to be perfected according to God's purpose for Him to be our High Priest and Mediator We are being perfected then by our sufferings and struggles to be in the likeness of Christ. But the whole context needs to be applied, not just the end result and then applied to an unrelated verse.

"Being perfected" does not equate to nor is it limited to sinlessness. We know that Christ was alwayts sinless. So with the full scope of the context in Hebrews we can see that "being perfected", while it is a completion of God purpose for each man, also includeds the process and the definition of "perfected" is not limited to the final outcome but does also include the process.

Heb 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

In other words, being perfect, is a matter of being perfected, brought to completion, being brought toward, and the accomplishing of God's purpose for us. So there fore, those of the OT were not going to be "perfected" without all men having the same opportunity.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. That would include those of faith, the saints, of the OT, as listed in the previous verses, and thus the context; and those who now come to faith in Christ Jesus. It is not talking about resurrection here in Hebrews.

[John146]

Hebrews does not necessarily refer to resurrection, the same word translated perfect does not equate to immortal resurrection, though it can be used in that context.

No, sorry. It does equate to immortal resurrection and I will show you that in my responses to your other points.

The entire context is talking about faith, the OT saints of faith, which is clearly also stated in Matthew in the word "saints".

The only ones who will be perfected are those of faith. That includes OT saints and NT saints. But Heb 11:39-40 says they (OT saints) will not be perfected apart from us (NT saints). We (NT saints) will all be perfected together at the same time at the second coming of Christ, so the only way for it to be true that OT saints are not perfected apart from us is for them to not be perfected until the second coming of Christ. If they were perfected before that then they would have been perfected apart from us.

As far as resurrection goes, it does not take resurrection for the dead of faith to be perfect.

Yes, it does. To be made perfect always has to do with being made completely perfect and that includes the body.

They are in the presence of God with Jesus when they die. Their imperfect mortal bodies no longer exist

How can people's bodies be resurrected and changed from mortal and corruptible to immortal and incorruptible in the future if their mortal bodies no longer exist when they die?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

We can't limit "perfect" or "perfected" to a resurrection sinlessness to immortality because Christ was always sinless, so there fore "perfected", while certainly includes the end result, must also include the process, and it is not limited to a process of becoming or being sinless, but the entire process of being completed according to God's purpose for the one being perfected.

But no one has yet been perfected. What Heb 11:39-40 is talking about is the end result of having been made completely perfect. So, you can say it's a process if you want but that isn't what Heb 11:39-40 is talking about. It's talking about people actually having been made perfect, not being in the process of being made perfect. Heb 11:39-40 is talking about something that had not yet occurred at the time it was written so that means the OT saints were not yet perfected at that point but you are trying to say they were (or at least that they could have been).

Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,[

We need to consider the context and thus exactly what the entirety of "perfected" means in order to understand the full scope of what is being said.

Right, and I believe you are missing the context. Notice He was not perfected until after His resurrection. That shows that one is not perfected until their body has been perfected.

It is not limited to sinless, because Christ was always sinless, so perfected within these context must mean something more than our final state of being as resurrected immortal.

Yes, it means no longer being mortal. For Him being perfected meant He no longer had a mortal body and instead had an immortal body. Being made perfect must include being resurrected immortal because the perfecting includes the perfecting of our bodies. That is what I think you are missing. He was not perfected until after He was resurrected because only then was His body perfected. So, Heb 11:39-40 is speaking in the same sense. It's only referring to OT saints and NT saints being perfected together. If the OT saints have already been perfected then how can we (NT saints) be perfected together with them? That wouldn't be possible if they have already been perfected. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

Though our perfection will certainly be completed with resurrection.

That is what Heb 11:39-40 is about. Our completed perfection. It's speaking of something that had not yet happened and it says when it did happen it would happen for OT saints and NT saints together at the same time. What else could that be referring to then a bodily resurrection. We know all saints will be resurrected bodily together at the same time from passages like John 5:28-29, 1 Cor 15:51-54 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 so I don't know when else all saints could be perfected at the same time except when the resurrection occurs.

Luk 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

If you are going to use this as an argument against an immortal resurrection of those spoken of in Matthew, then you are going to have another problem in the following verse 40 where it says.
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

How could we possibly have been provided "something better"??

I'm not sure why you are acting like this is a problem for my view. That statement has to do with the fact that the new covenant of grace through Christ's sacrifice and His shed blood is better than the old covenant of the law of Moses and its animal sacrifices.

Is there not but One Christ? Not but by the blood of One that a man may be cleansed? Of course there is only One.

Of course. Why are you saying this?

But within the context, being made "perfect" is a matter of including that process by which they were and we are, being made perfect. Limiting the concept "perfect" here to resurrection and then applying that limited concept to Matthew gives an incorrect understanding of Matthew.

What we're talking about here is the end result of people being completely perfected. You are suggesting that occurred (or at least could have occurred) for OT saints when Matt 27:52-53 occurred but Heb 11:39-40 indicates that it can't occur for OT saints apart from NT saints. So, Matt 27:52-53 can't be referring to OT saints being completely perfected yet at that time.

Those of faith, which were being discussed in the previous verses, were not going to have God perfecting them without God also perfecting us.

But we haven't been perfected yet. Heb 11:39-40 is speaking of OT saints and NT saints being completely perfected together and that will occur when we are all perfected together at Christ's second coming.

And we have been provided with something better. Those that were "saints" spoken of in Matthew were already perfected,

No, they were not. To be perfected requires the perfecting of their bodies and that has not yet occurred for anyone. Paul said that will not occur for those who are Christ's until His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23).

their obedience and their faith, perfected them. They had no mortal body in the grave to be concerned with, and their spirit had been perfected.

Being perfected includes one's body being perfected so they have not yet been perfected. I'm not sure why you are putting so little significance on the body here. Jesus was not perfected until His body was resurrected so it should be clear that the body plays a big part in being perfected.

"Being perfected" does not equate to nor is it limited to sinlessness.

I never said that. But it does equate to or at least include our bodies being made immortal and incorruptible and that will not happen until His second coming (1 Cor 15:51-54).

We know that Christ was alwayts sinless. So with the full scope of the context in Hebrews we can see that "being perfected", while it is a completion of God purpose for each man, also includeds the process and the definition of "perfected" is not limited to the final outcome but does also include the process.

But Heb 11:39-40 isn't speaking of a process (what process would OT saints be going through right now?), it is speaking of OT saints and NT saints being perfected together. That isn't happening right now since they are all physically dead and waiting for the resurrection and judgment day, but it will happen when that day comes.

[quiet dove]

No, sorry. It does equate to immortal resurrection and I will show you that in my responses to your other points.

The only ones who will be perfected are those of faith. That includes OT saints and NT saints. But Heb 11:39-40 says they (OT saints) will not be perfected apart from us (NT saints). We (NT saints) will all be perfected together at the same time at the second coming of Christ, so the only way for it to be true that OT saints are not perfected apart from us is for them to not be perfected until the second coming of Christ. If they were perfected before that then they would have been perfected apart from us.

Yes, it does. To be made perfect always has to do with being made completely perfect and that includes the body.

How can people's bodies be resurrected and changed from mortal and corruptible to immortal and incorruptible in the future if their mortal bodies no longer exist when they die?

But no one has yet been perfected. What Heb 11:39-40 is talking about is the end result of having been made completely perfect. So, you can say it's a process if you want but that isn't what Heb 11:39-40 is talking about. It's talking about people actually having been made perfect, not being in the process of being made perfect. Heb 11:39-40 is talking about something that had not yet occurred at the time it was written so that means the OT saints were not yet perfected at that point but you are trying to say they were (or at least that they could have been).

Right, and I believe you are missing the context. Notice He was not perfected until after His resurrection. That shows that one is not perfected until their body has been perfected.

Yes, it means no longer being mortal. For Him being perfected meant He no longer had a mortal body and instead had an immortal body. Being made perfect must include being resurrected immortal because the perfecting includes the perfecting of our bodies. That is what I think you are missing. He was not perfected until after He was resurrected because only then was His body perfected. So, Heb 11:39-40 is speaking in the same sense. It's only referring to OT saints and NT saints being perfected together. If the OT saints have already been perfected then how can we (NT saints) be perfected together with them? That wouldn't be possible if they have already been perfected. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

That is what Heb 11:39-40 is about. Our completed perfection. It's speaking of something that had not yet happened and it says when it did happen it would happen for OT saints and NT saints together at the same time. What else could that be referring to then a bodily resurrection. We know all saints will be resurrected bodily together at the same time from passages like John 5:28-29, 1 Cor 15:51-54 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 so I don't know when else all saints could be perfected at the same time except when the resurrection occurs.

I'm not sure why you are acting like this is a problem for my view. That statement has to do with the fact that the new covenant of grace through Christ's sacrifice and His shed blood is better than the old covenant of the law of Moses and its animal sacrifices.

Of course. Why are you saying this?

What we're talking about here is the end result of people being completely perfected. You are suggesting that occurred (or at least could have occurred) for OT saints when Matt 27:52-53 occurred but Heb 11:39-40 indicates that it can't occur for OT saints apart from NT saints. So, Matt 27:52-53 can't be referring to OT saints being completely perfected yet at that time.

But we haven't been perfected yet. Heb 11:39-40 is speaking of OT saints and NT saints being completely perfected together and that will occur when we are all perfected together at Christ's second coming.

No, they were not. To be perfected requires the perfecting of their bodies and that has not yet occurred for anyone. Paul said that will not occur for those who are Christ's until His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Being perfected includes one's body being perfected so they have not yet been perfected. I'm not sure why you are putting so little significance on the body here. Jesus was not perfected until His body was resurrected so it should be clear that the body plays a big part in being perfected.

I never said that. But it does equate to or at least include our bodies being made immortal and incorruptible and that will not happen until His second coming (1 Cor 15:51-54).

But Heb 11:39-40 isn't speaking of a process (what process would OT saints be going through right now?), it is speaking of OT saints and NT saints being perfected together. That isn't happening right now since they are all physically dead and waiting for the resurrection and judgment day, but it will happen when that day comes.

So what you are saying is when we die, still being imperfect because we have no perfect body yet, not having been resurrected, we are with Christ in an imperfect state then until we get a body. Sorry, I disagree. While the new body will be the final completion, that does not mean until then the spirit has not been perfected. And as I said, a perfect body does not make a perfect spirit, it is the other way around. The spirit being perfect controls the imperfect body now, and later, the perfect spirit will have a perfect body that is not longer weak regarding sin.

The OT saints, as I tried to put forth, were perfected just as we are, by faith, and thus the standing in that faith through out lifes many struggles/sufferings being the perfecting process.

Their faith, just as ours, their believing God, just as we do, covers them under the Blood of the Lamb. They were being perfected in this mortal life just as we are. And we are not perfected without them or them without us because we are all covered by the Blood of the Lamb and that in faith of believing God.

Bringing however many "saints" ( those of the faith of Abraham-so like Abraham their faith having been accounted unto them as righteousness).... now are back to mortal life thus requiring them to be born again. The faith that had made them accounted righteous(like Abraham and the many others listed in that portion of Hebrews) apparently null and void until they became "born again". The faith they had in that they believed God...prior to the Cross... of no value toward like it is said to have been for the others mentioned in that section of Hebrews.


We will just have to disagree....

[John146]

So what you are saying is when we die, still being imperfect because we have no perfect body yet, not having been resurrected, we are with Christ in an imperfect state then until we get a body. Sorry, I disagree.

Then show me scripture which states otherwise. I'm not saying the spirit can sin in heaven or anything like that but to be made perfect includes the body so no one except Christ has yet been made perfect. You are claiming that the OT saints who were resurrected in Matt 27:52-53 have already been made perfect, are you not? That would mean they were made perfect apart from us, which contradicts Heb 11:39-40.

While the new body will be the final completion, that does not mean until then the spirit has not been perfected.

I'm not saying otherwise but when scripture speaks of people being made perfect it is not just speaking of their spirits.

Their faith, just as ours, their believing God, just as we do, covers them under the Blood of the Lamb. They were being perfected in this mortal life just as we are. And we are not perfected without them or them without us because we are all covered by the Blood of the Lamb and that in faith of believing God.

If any of them (OT saints) are already perfected then that means they were perfected without us (NT saints), which contradicts Heb 11:39-40. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

We will just have to disagree....

I have no problem with that but I definitely don't think we've exhausted this topic. I think there are aspects of this issue that you have not yet considered carefully.

[quiet dove]

Then show me scripture which states otherwise. I'm not saying the spirit can sin in heaven or anything like that but to be made perfect includes the body so no one except Christ has yet been made perfect. You are claiming that the OT saints who were resurrected in Matt 27:52-53 have already been made perfect, are you not? That would mean they were made perfect apart from us, which contradicts Heb 11:39-40.

I'm not saying otherwise but when scripture speaks of people being made perfect it is not just speaking of their spirits.

If any of them (OT saints) are already perfected then that means they were perfected without us (NT saints), which contradicts Heb 11:39-40. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

I have no problem with that but I definitely don't think we've exhausted this topic. I think there are aspects of this issue that you have not yet considered carefully.

I have already done so in my post elaborating on the entirety of what being made perfect entails.

And yes, I am saying those saints of Matthew were indeed resurrected. Their being resurrected does not mean they were made perfect without us as we too are being made perfect, day by day. We, like them, are already covered by the blood of the Lamb, in that respect then, they have not been made perfect without us.

I would agree that we have not exhausted the topic....but we are not going to agree on it because you see one time of resurrection for all men ever born, and I do not. So at our foundation of resurrection we disagree....and that onto the issue of perfection...

I agree that resurrection is the final completion. But limiting our perfection until that resurrection leaves out the requirement of our walking obediently and according to God's purpose and thus by that walk of obedience being made perfect. We are to be walking in that plan now, not awaiting a future time of resurrection to be walking according to His purpose. And other passages say that walking in obedience is what enables the process of being perfected.



So we, just as the OT saints, walking in faith, are being perfected and all by one act of Christ were covered by His atoning blood. They prior to the Cross by their believing God (like Abraham) and faith being accounted to them as righteousness, us after the cross, believing God and our faith in Christ being accounted as righteousness.

It is the Cross that makes perfect, not resurrection. The Cross makes perfection possible, just like through that same Cross resurrection to immortal-incorruptible is made possible. Those OT saints were then made perfect, not without us, but with us, by the Cross and through Jesus Christ
Heb 9:9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—
Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

[John146]

I have already done so in my post elaborating on the entirety of what being made perfect entails.

And yes, I am saying those saints of Matthew were indeed resurrected.

That's obvious, but the question is whether they resurrected with mortal bodies or immortal bodies.

Their being resurrected does not mean they were made perfect without us as we too are being made perfect, day by day. We, like them, are already covered by the blood of the Lamb, in that respect then, they have not been made perfect without us.

Do you believe those mentioned in Matt 27:52-53 were already made perfect at that time? If so then that means they were made perfect without us since we have not yet been made perfect. It's as simple as that.

[quiet dove]

That's obvious, but the question is whether they resurrected with mortal bodies or immortal bodies.

Do you believe those mentioned in Matt 27:52-53 were already made perfect at that time? If so then that means they were made perfect without us since we have not yet been made perfect. It's as simple as that.

Yes, I believe they were resurrected immortal bodies. As I said, from what I see it is the Cross that provides the means and "perfect" is a process of walking in submissive obedience. That is what is said about Jesus, and so I assume is how it is for us. The Cross happened at the same time for all men, and all men must then walk in faith, that includes those of the OT that were men of faith in God and that faith, like Abraham's faith, was accounted unto them as righteousness....the Blood of the Lamb covering their sins as it covers ours and their walk of obedience in that faith being the process of perfecting those that are separated out unto God. Resurrection being the final completion of those who have been made perfect. But in and of itself... not what perfects, any more than it is the Means to the perfection. Nor is resurrection the obedience we walk in with faith that perfects. Resurrection is what the Means makes possible and what the faith awaits. But I agree, resurrection is the final change that we await in being completely perfect without sin.

But again, a resurrected body without an already perfected spirit is not going to work. The spirit of the man must already have been perfected in order to even obtain a perfect, immortal-incorruptible body, the incorruptible being the important thing here. I mean, neither of us is awaiting a corruptible immortal body....lol. That would certainly be a bummer...

[John146]

But I agree, resurrection is the final change that we await in being completely perfect without sin.

In case you weren't already aware of what I've been trying to tell you, I believe Heb 11:39-40 is only referring to that final change that will occur at Christ's second coming. I believe it is saying that the OT saints will not experience that final change without us. But if the OT saints mentioned in Matt 27:52-53 have already experienced that change then that would mean they were perfected without us. That's my point just in case you haven't understood my point up until now. So, there's nothing more I can say on this matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[quiet dove]

In case you weren't already aware of what I've been trying to tell you, I believe Heb 11:39-40 is only referring to that final change that will occur at Christ's second coming. I believe it is saying that the OT saints will not experience that final change without us. But if the OT saints mentioned in Matt 27:52-53 have already experienced that change then that would mean they were perfected without us. That's my point just in case you haven't understood my point up until now. So, there's nothing more I can say on this matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I got that part, just disagree with the application toward Matthew and it meaning those raised saints could not have been resurrected immortal. And we are right back to where we started with your equating the final stage with the totality of being perfected. I disagree that resurrection in and of itself is what perfects, thought the final stage, a result of what has already been provided for and those who have been perfected.

Besides, I see nothing in the text to think that all OT saints were resurrected at that time, so it is not saying all OT saints were then resurrected before any NT saints are

As important as Jesus resurrection is to our Gospel, I mean without it, we would be the fools. It is the proof of Jesus Deity and having accomplished His purpose. It is promised and what we hope for. So with that in mind, to just have these saints resurrected to mortal existence is not really any kind of witness toward our hope of resurrection. Not only do we have proof of Jesus being the Truth and the Way. We have proof that He indeed will do the same for us, resurrecting us to immortal-incorruptible life

[John146]

I got that part, just disagree with the application toward Matthew and it meaning those raised saints could not have been resurrected immortal. And we are right back to where we started with your equating the final stage with the totality of being perfected. I disagree that resurrection in and of itself is what perfects, thought the final stage, a result of what has already been provided for and those who have been perfected.

Besides, I see nothing in the text to think that all OT saints were resurrected at that time, so it is not saying all OT saints were then resurrected before any NT saints are

As important as Jesus resurrection is to our Gospel, I mean without it, we would be the fools. It is the proof of Jesus Deity and having accomplished His purpose. It is promised and what we hope for. So with that in mind, to just have these saints resurrected to mortal existence is not really any kind of witness toward our hope of resurrection. Not only do we have proof of Jesus being the Truth and the Way. We have proof that He indeed will do the same for us, resurrecting us to immortal-incorruptible life

Much of what you're saying here is based on speculation rather than on anything written specifically in scripture. And that's fine to do that, but I think we can only get to the truth of the matter from scripture itself.

I have another angle on this that I believe we need to consider. It is assumed by many, including you, that those OT saints were resurrected after Christ was resurrected. However, the context of the passage does not show that to be the case. The reason they were able to come up out of their graves and tombs is because of the earthquake that took place when Christ died. The text says that the graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake happened, which was at the time of Christ's death. So, they were resurrected and their graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake took place at the time Christ died, not after His resurrection. And if they were resurrected before His resurrection then they could not have been raised unto bodily immortality because scripture teaches that He was the first to be raised unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

If we look at the text closely we can clearly see the timing of the graves and tombs being opened and the bodies of the saints being resurrected:

Matt 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Notice that right after Jesus died the veil of the temple was torn in two, the earth quaked, the rocks were split AND "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised". That means the graves were opened and the bodies of the saints were raised immediately after His death, not after His resurrection. When it says "and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many" I believe that the Greek word autos should have been translated as "their" instead of "His" in this case. So, I believe it should say they came out of the graves after their resurrection and then "went into the holy city and appeared to many".

While the Greek word autos is most often translated as "his" or "him" in scripture, it is also translated a number of times as "their", "they" or "them" so it's completely plausible that it could be translated as "their" in Matt 27:53. Here are a few examples of that word being translated as "them" or "their":

Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Matt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matt 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

There's a lot more than just these, but you get the idea.

[quiet dove]

Much of what you're saying here is based on speculation rather than on anything written specifically in scripture. And that's fine to do that, but I think we can only get to the truth of the matter from scripture itself.

I have another angle on this that I believe we need to consider. It is assumed by many, including you, that those OT saints were resurrected after Christ was resurrected. However, the context of the passage does not show that to be the case. The reason they were able to come up out of their graves and tombs is because of the earthquake that took place when Christ died. The text says that the graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake happened, which was at the time of Christ's death. So, they were resurrected and their graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake took place at the time Christ died, not after His resurrection. And if they were resurrected before His resurrection then they could not have been raised unto bodily immortality because scripture teaches that He was the first to be raised unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

If we look at the text closely we can clearly see the timing of the graves and tombs being opened and the bodies of the saints being resurrected:

Matt 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Notice that right after Jesus died the veil of the temple was torn in two, the earth quaked, the rocks were split AND "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised". That means the graves were opened and the bodies of the saints were raised immediately after His death, not after His resurrection. When it says "and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many" I believe that the Greek word autos should have been translated as "their" instead of "His" in this case. So, I believe it should say they came out of the graves after their resurrection and then "went into the holy city and appeared to many".

While the Greek word autos is most often translated as "his" or "him" in scripture, it is also translated a number of times as "their", "they" or "them" so it's completely plausible that it could be translated as "their" in Matt 27:53. Here are a few examples of that word being translated as "them" or "their":

Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Matt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matt 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

There's a lot more than just these, but you get the idea.

Were they raised prior to Jesus resurrection I would not be disagreeing with you, but no, it is not based on speculation, and the text clearly says that these came from their graves after His resurrection
Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

While I will agree the wording is tricky with the order, after digging around and checking, to me it says that their actual resurrection was after Christ..which is crucial, obviously, to my argument. The graves being opened and the bodies coming out being two different events, and the latter after Christ resurrection

It seems more likely that the significance of the stones from these graves being moved by the earth quake is in that the moving of these stones is entirely separated from the moving of the huge stone in front of Christ tomb which was moved without any human explanation other than it being supernatural. Jesus tomb did not open and His body fall out or anything which with all the denial and story telling surrounding His resurrection it would be extremely important that the scriptures are clear in separating the opening of these other tombs and the opening of Christ tomb.

Nothing then that I have said contradicts Acts or 1 Corinthians above, Christ remains the First Fruits

Your thought that that "Him" should be translated as "their", has the problem of that is not how it is translated. In the Interlinear it reads "after the rousing 'of Him' they-into-came"... So "their" does not really seem the route to take.

[divaD]

Much of what you're saying here is based on speculation rather than on anything written specifically in scripture. And that's fine to do that, but I think we can only get to the truth of the matter from scripture itself.

I have another angle on this that I believe we need to consider. It is assumed by many, including you, that those OT saints were resurrected after Christ was resurrected. However, the context of the passage does not show that to be the case. The reason they were able to come up out of their graves and tombs is because of the earthquake that took place when Christ died. The text says that the graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake happened, which was at the time of Christ's death. So, they were resurrected and their graves and tombs were opened when the earthquake took place at the time Christ died, not after His resurrection. And if they were resurrected before His resurrection then they could not have been raised unto bodily immortality because scripture teaches that He was the first to be raised unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

If we look at the text closely we can clearly see the timing of the graves and tombs being opened and the bodies of the saints being resurrected:

Matt 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Notice that right after Jesus died the veil of the temple was torn in two, the earth quaked, the rocks were split AND "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised". That means the graves were opened and the bodies of the saints were raised immediately after His death, not after His resurrection. When it says "and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many" I believe that the Greek word autos should have been translated as "their" instead of "His" in this case. So, I believe it should say they came out of the graves after their resurrection and then "went into the holy city and appeared to many".

While the Greek word autos is most often translated as "his" or "him" in scripture, it is also translated a number of times as "their", "they" or "them" so it's completely plausible that it could be translated as "their" in Matt 27:53. Here are a few examples of that word being translated as "them" or "their":

Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Matt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matt 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

There's a lot more than just these, but you get the idea.

http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...Tpdf/mat27.pdf

Read that translation. It appears to agree with the KJV. It's not uncommon that passages sometimes have gaps of time within, and not always chronological either, and are not to to be understood as something happening all at one time. This seems to be the case here, if the above and the KJV translation is correct. And besides, it makes a lot more since that they would rise AFTER His resurrection, and not before it.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened

The above happened during Jesus' death. This is what the centurion, and they that were with him witnessed.

and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This occurred after His resurrection, exactly as stated. IOW, since you indeed believe parentheticals are used throughout Scripture, then that is exactly what this could be in relation to the context. Who is right then? Not certain. But just wanted to add another perspective into the mix.