Whose doctrine is correct?

[BadDog]

Depending on what the apostles taught, and if what they taught has continued until now, we would then know if doctrine was contrary to the apostles doctrine.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Firstfruits

FF,

Thx. That was the 1st century church - the Apostles were still alive. Christ founded His church on what He had taught His disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20) But those disciples taught others who taught others. And at the time of Acts 2, the believers did not yet have the written New testament - which we now have.

BD

[Firstfruits]

FF,

Thx. That was the 1st century church - the Apostles were still alive. Christ founded His church on what He had taught His disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20) But those disciples taught others who taught others. And at the time of Acts 2, the believers did not yet have the written New testament - which we now have.

BD

But then what did the disciples teach that Jesus commanded them to teach all nations to observe, as what Jesus has commanded should not change just like the law of Moses was not to change?

Firstfruits

[BadDog]

But then what did the disciples teach that Jesus commanded them to teach all nations to observe, as what Jesus has commanded should not change just like the law of Moses was not to change?

Firstfruits

Of course. And we have the written Word of God to make certain of that. But if we base our theology upon men, and the church is comprised of people, then it will have faults. But God's Word is perfect. That is why the single standard must be God's Word.

BD

[slightlypuzzled]

We have to tread lightly here, though, I think. Incorrect doctrine among Believers shouldn't be categorized with the False Prophets mentioned in the NT who deny Jesus as the Christ. These verses don't specifically say that, but their categorization as "wolves" on the inside clearly place them outside of the Fellowship of Believers in Christ.

That is a good point. The whole thread touchs on a number of issues that are not well defined. Errors from a denominational doctrine stand point are not the same as preaching a false Christ. Paul told the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 15: 1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

For Paul, the primary outline of the Gospel was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. To that, all must assent. While there is more content, that 'more' all hinges on whether we accept the primary focus.

[Firstfruits]

Of course. And we have the written Word of God to make certain of that. But if we base our theology upon men, and the church is comprised of people, then it will have faults. But God's Word is perfect. That is why the single standard must be God's Word.

BD

We know that the commandment of Christ is to love one another, and that shows that we are his disciples, so what else could their doctrine be?

Firstfruits

[watchinginawe]

One of the marks that identify which Church is this Church founded by Jesus Christ on earth for the salvation of souls is that by neseccity it must be 2,000 years old and traceable back to the very moment 2,000 years ago when He commissioned the Apostles to teach by His authority to all nations in His name and to who Jesus himself promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth and who promised to those very apostles that He himself would be with them always till the end of the age.

OLC, continuation is important. I do believe that the Church has continued in presence until this day. But I do not believe that this presence is by progeny within a certain ecclesiastical body, but rather in the ecclesia itself by the Holy Spirit you mention above. One Church, yes, still possessing the Holy Spirit in each member. One Church organization, I don't think so. Even in the Revelation, Jesus has different messages unto the "churches". Where was His message to the mother church organization? Jesus establishes or identifies no ecclesiastical body between Him and these churches. Nor does Jesus decide that their doctrine is correct simply because they declare it (Rev. 2:14-16, 20 for example).

The pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church so says St. Paul. The way we test the spirit of truth from the spirit of error is whether or not that teaching agrees with that Church so says St. John.

You propose that the ecclesiastical Church is beyond criticism and scrutiny and is in fact the sole criticiser and scrutinizer of truth and the believer. In effect, you see the ecclesiastical Church as a vicar for Christ, the Holy Ghost, and Scripture.

This is upside down and one of the the main reasons for the reformation. The Roman Church proposes that as a body, and through the progression of years, that they possess the accumulated "canon", or measuring stick, of truth, and that this is authoritative in all matters of the Christian faith, including Scripture. Thus when one reads the scriptures, the truth of Scripture must be compared to the Church's canon of truth for proper interpretation and application.

Protestantism proposes that the "truth of Scripture" is the "canon", or measuring stick, of truth, and thus it is the Church and its teachings that must be examined in the light of Scripture to see if it is in error.

[slightlypuzzled]

Because I believe mainstream Christiantiy is in the Word of God and within God's will.



each of us have access to God's Word and His Spirit and therefore a responsibility to listen to Him so we can correctly read and divide the word of God. We're not going to have the opportunity to point our finger at our local congregation and blame them for our failures.
God is a God of personal responsibility when it comes to these matters (IMHO).



Quite a few Christians who get wound up in Messianic Judaism teach from the Talmud as doctrine.

Quite a few good points all around. We are each called as individuals to accept the Gospel and the claims it has on our lives.

[slightlypuzzled]

You may consider the Sunday morning ritual then because it is nowhere taught or practiced in the Bible. That doesn't make comgregating on Sunday mornings false doctrine or false prophecy (to the ire of many I know).

A good pointer to a more general theme that not all that is different among the 'Big three' is sinful or wrong. To make broad sweeping statements about these differences only clouds the issue, muddies the water, and taints the well for further discussion.

[BadDog]

We know that the commandment of Christ is to love one another, and that shows that we are his disciples, so what else could their doctrine be?

Firstfruits

??? Sorry, but don't know what your point is.

BTW, WatchingInAwe's post #81 was excellent.

BD

[Firstfruits]

??? Sorry, but don't know what your point is.

BTW, WatchingInAwe's post #81 was excellent.

BD

According to the gospel what did the disciples teach?

If we do not know, then how will we know if we are teaching "another doctrine"?

Firstfruits

[BadDog]

According to the gospel what did the disciples teach?

If we do not know, then how will we know if we are teaching "another doctrine"?

Firstfruits

FF,

Sorry, but still not clear. I'll do my best. The gospel is clear in the 4 gospels, and clarified in the letters of the apostles, especially in John's gospel, which is the only NT document which specifically says that it was written to evangelize - that we might believe the gospel and gain eternal life. (See John 20:30, 21)

God's Word (in this instance, the NT) is very clear, so what's the concern? If what someone says differs from the clear teaching of scripture, whether he be the Pope even, he is wrong. "Let God be right, and man ever wrong."

2 Peter 1:16, 20-21 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

First of all, you should know this: no prophecy of Scripture comes from one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God.


How can what a man says, sometimes hundreds of years after the gospels were written, overrule the words of God?

BD

[Firstfruits]

FF,

Sorry, but still not clear. I'll do my best. The gospel is clear in the 4 gospels, and clarified in the letters of the apostles, especially in John's gospel, which is the only NT document which specifically says that it was written to evangelize - that we might believe the gospel and gain eternal life. (See John 20:30, 21)

God's Word (in this instance, the NT) is very clear, so what's the concern? If what someone says differs from the clear teaching of scripture, whether he be the Pope even, he is wrong. "Let God be right, and man ever wrong."

2 Peter 1:16, 20-21 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

First of all, you should know this: no prophecy of Scripture comes from one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God.


How can what a man says, sometimes hundreds of years after the gospels were written, overrule the words of God?

BD

Mk 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Lk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

It seems like a simple message to me.

Firstfruits

[ozell]

Because some people are Christians in appearance and even deed, but have not received Christ in Spirit.

so these people were not informed by their pastors concerning the spirit of Jesus, and on judgement day they had to find out they worshipped the Lord in vain?

[ozell]

Peter said

2 Peter 3:2-4

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Paul said

2 Timothy 4:3-5

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

we are in the last days

whose doctrine is correct?

[ozell]

According to the gospel what did the disciples teach?

If we do not know, then how will we know if we are teaching "another doctrine"?

Firstfruits

seeing that there was not a NT written we have to look at what was written, which was the OT

Jesus taught from the OT the prophets

Matthew 12:38-40

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus quoted from the book of Isaiah

Luke 4

14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Jesus referred us to the book of Daniel

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

the Lord and the Apostles read and quoted from the OT.