cure-real
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 48

Thread: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

  1. #1

    Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    1. Are they members of the church?
    2. If not, who are they?
    3. Are they indwelt with the Spirit?
    4. Do the soteriological implications of the cross apply to them? Walvoord said concerning the tribulation, "The only way one could be kept from that day of wrath would be to be delivered beforehand."
    5. Does this mean that they are immediately raptured when they are saved or do they endure God's wrath?

    I am trying to get a better understanding of the pre-trib position and this particular issue seems to be a cog in my understanding. Thanks for any help.




    *

  2. #2

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    1. Are they members of the church?
    2. If not, who are they?
    3. Are they indwelt with the Spirit?
    4. Do the soteriological implications of the cross apply to them? Walvoord said concerning the tribulation, "The only way one could be kept from that day of wrath would be to be delivered beforehand."
    5. Does this mean that they are immediately raptured when they are saved or do they endure God's wrath?

    I am trying to get a better understanding of the pre-trib position and this particular issue seems to be a cog in my understanding. Thanks for any help. *
    Friend, I answered your questions on another thread.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,265
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    1. Are they members of the church?
    2. If not, who are they?
    3. Are they indwelt with the Spirit?
    I am not sure about the "members of the Church" question. But what we do know is they are a special group, which is indicated in Rev 6:10, and also in Rev 20:4. Does not mean that they are more or less special from any other that has believed God. Just as OT or NT believer, we are not one more special, we are all God's creatures and He loves us all. Even within the Church we have different calling for different parts of the Body, but we are all reunited to our Creator by the Blood of the Lamb. No reason to get worked up if in eternity we have different "jobs", if you will. All those who chose to believe are part of the Kingdom.

    The Church is an "entity", the Body of Christ and indwelt with the Spirit(you already know that part), my point, is that just because the Church is taken, that by no means says that the Holy Spirit some how can no longer work here in the earthly realm, it just means that the Body of Christ which He indwells is the body through which His ministry works, at this time. But the Holy Spirit is hardly limited to only being able to exist within and work through believers.

    There were OT men/women of faith, indwelt with the Holy Spirit who are not part of the Church because the Church had not been established, but they are still saved through the blood of Christ because, like Abraham, they believed God. So during the GT, those who believe upon Christ could be indwelt with the Spirit but possibly not be part of the entity of the Body of Christ.

    Look at this way, there are different 'types' of angels in heaven, but they are no less an angel created by God. No reason that the saints of the OT, the saints of the NT(Church), and the saints of the GT (all redeemed by the blood of the Lamb) can't be different "groups", for lack of knowing how to put it. They are all just as loved, and just as "saved". And all the same way, because Christ conquered the cross and they placed their faith in God's words to be true, and believed Him.

    4. Do the soteriological implications of the cross apply to them? Walvoord said concerning the tribulation, "The only way one could be kept from that day of wrath would be to be delivered beforehand."
    The cross is the only way anyone is washed clean. Christ died to redeem all that was lost in the fall and thus provided for God to reunite His creatures to Himself. Those of the OT who believed God though they lived before the First Advent, those of us now, and those of the future time in question, any man who gets saved gets that way because Jesus conquered the cross, there is no other way.

    As far as being a believer after the rapture and having to endure the terrible time on earth, the principle is really no different than for us now, we all must deal with the consequences of our decisions. The decision to deny Christ prior to the rapture is no different, even if that decision changes after the rapture. It is certainly taking the principle of consequences to the extreme, but the principle applies.
    I mean if I deny Christ, barrel on through life making decisions contrary to God's will, and then get saved, I still have to deal with the poorly made decisions I made prior to accepting Christ and desiring to live according to God's will. God helping us, even with our stupid decisions does not mean the consequences just disappear.

    It is not like the rapture is the end of mens opportunity to be saved. And better to be saved even if you are living during that terrible time than to still be living during that terrible time and not be saved.

    5. Does this mean that they are immediately raptured when they are saved or do they endure God's wrath?
    We can see from Revelation that the believers are heavily persecuted and most will be killed. The question of what of God's wrath they will be effected by is not really answered in Revelation, however, we do know that the righteous have nothing to fear from God. But also, from Rev 6, we know that many believers are killed at the beginning, though more are to follow, we also know that some survive, and the only way they could survive would be under God's protection because there will be no where to hide for the average man.

    We cannot force the Bible into our limited understanding, just because "I" do not understand all things about those believers of the GT, does not mean that there is no rapture and thus believers after, and thus believers during the GT. No more than I can explain why some believers today will be killed for their faith and I am sitting here talking to you, unharmed. Am I a better Christian, I seriously doubt I would measure up to the ankle of those who today, will die.




  4. #4

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Clockstopper - thank you. I am cutting and pasting our interaction onto this thread to keep the discussion distinct:

    Clockstopper wrote:
    1. Do you mean the 'body of Christ' or a particular denomination? If its the body of Christ; yes.
    2. refer to my answer above.
    3. All Christians are indwelt by the spirit.
    4. I don't know nor understand Walvoord's context so I can't answer that one.
    5. What verse of scripture or anything pre-trib believers have said that would cause that question?

    Best wishes.

    Poor Brother Benji replied:
    1. Ok, so part of the body of Christ has been rapture before the tribulation, and then those that get saved during the tribulation become part of the body of Christ, correct? Would they be defined, from a pre-trib perspective, as the Bride of Christ?
    2. ok
    3. How is it possible for people to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit if He has been removed from the earth (2 Thess. 2:7)?
    4. Walvoord was speaking to the necessity of the rapture of the church to avoid the wrath of God characteristic of the tribulation. My question is, if the wrath of God necessitated the removal of the church based on the promises of 1 Thess. 5:9 and Rom. 5:9, then how is it possible for those being converted during the tribulation to remain on earth during a time of God's wrath?
    5. I am attempting to follow the logic of a pre-trib scenario, which I admittedly don't fully understand, hence the questions...

    Thanks for helping me get a clearer picture.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,265
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    5. I am attempting to follow the logic of a pre-trib scenario, which I admittedly don't fully understand, hence the questions...
    The problem with this, not you personally because we all do it, but the whole "logic" thing, is that it matters not what our "logic" is, it only matters what God has revealed to us. And what He has not revealed to us we will just have to wait on. Our "logic" insults God and gets us in trouble. We need not think our logic will give us understanding of the Holy Word. Not saying we should throw logic out the window, just saying we should not be depending on it if/when scripture may have not revealed something to us.




  6. #6

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    @Clockstopper - Thank you for your response on the other thread. Again, I am trying to keep the discussion here to be distinct. I have just one more question:

    Poor Brother Benji wrote:
    4. Walvoord was speaking to the necessity of the rapture of the church to avoid the wrath of God characteristic of the tribulation. My question is, if the wrath of God necessitated the removal of the church based on the promises of 1 Thess. 5:9 and Rom. 5:9, then how is it possible for those being converted during the tribulation to remain on earth during a time of God's wrath?

    Clockstopper wrote:
    Where does it say that people cannot be saved during the tribulation? Those people who live during that time don't have the same promise that we have...just the same as we gentile Christians DO NOT have the same promises God gave to Israel.

    Poor Brother Benji response:
    Does the bible define this new, distinct group of saints, in the tribulation - explicitly? Or is this a concept derived from a dispensational system of theology?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Strawberry Plains, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    11,317
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    I offer it is strictly from a dispensational view and only became popular in the 1800's.

    I think more questions that need to be answered are:
    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'. They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?

    3- Is the tribulation the same as the 'wrath of God'? Or is the tribulation the 'wrath of satan who 'makes war with the saints and overcomes them'?

    Have you considered that we could be the ones who are 'alive and remain' until his coming?

    And that all this happens at the same time...the dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain rise to meet them in the air AT THE LAST TRUMP, at his only second coming and the wicked and the unbelieving are destroyed at this same time?
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  8. #8

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post

    I think more questions that need to be answered are:

    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'. They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?
    Excellent questions.

    Does anyone have an explanation?

  9. #9

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    @Clockstopper - Thank you for your response on the other thread. Again, I am trying to keep the discussion here to be distinct. I have just one more question:

    Poor Brother Benji wrote:
    4. Walvoord was speaking to the necessity of the rapture of the church to avoid the wrath of God characteristic of the tribulation. My question is, if the wrath of God necessitated the removal of the church based on the promises of 1 Thess. 5:9 and Rom. 5:9, then how is it possible for those being converted during the tribulation to remain on earth during a time of God's wrath?

    Clockstopper wrote:
    Where does it say that people cannot be saved during the tribulation? Those people who live during that time don't have the same promise that we have...just the same as we gentile Christians DO NOT have the same promises God gave to Israel.

    Poor Brother Benji response:
    Does the bible define this new, distinct group of saints, in the tribulation - explicitly? Or is this a concept derived from a dispensational system of theology?
    Don't be too technical. The fact is that there will be some sinners saved during that terrible time just as the centurion was saved at the foot of the cross during the midst of the darkness and Rahab was saved during the destruction of Jericho. That is something to rejoice about.

  10. #10

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    I offer it is strictly from a dispensational view and only became popular in the 1800's.

    I think more questions that need to be answered are:
    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'. They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?

    3- Is the tribulation the same as the 'wrath of God'? Or is the tribulation the 'wrath of satan who 'makes war with the saints and overcomes them'?

    Have you considered that we could be the ones who are 'alive and remain' until his coming?

    And that all this happens at the same time...the dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain rise to meet them in the air AT THE LAST TRUMP, at his only second coming and the wicked and the unbelieving are destroyed at this same time?
    Which last trump? The last trump of the age of grace or the last trump at the end of the tribulation?

    But grasp this: "The trumpet was sounded to convoke the people on solemn feasts, especially on the first day of the seventh month (the type of the completion of time; seven being the number for perfection;" (Jamieson, Faucett, & Brown based on Numbers 29:1). This celebration began on the first day, not the seventh. In other words the congregation of Isreal were called together on the first day...................by the trumpets. This is as it will be for the last seven yrs of the gentile world history. The people shall be called by the last trumpet (of our present age) and then the terrible time began, the time the Jews called 'The days of Woe". It is called 'Rosh Hoshanah' (Judgment Day).

    Even the pre-wrath teacher, Marv Rosenthal says, "I strongly believe that at the Feast of Trumpets, the Church will be raptured and the Lord's wrath will commence on earth." (The Feasts of the Lord, p. 29). I agree with him very much on that except for one thing: Like a math teacher using an old slide rule move his slide from 1 cm to over 6 cm, he moves the timing of the rapture from the first day/first yr to over 6 yrs later, without justification. But the tribulation is a 7yr series of events beginning with the revealing of Antichrist coinciding with the vanishing of all true believers in Jesus.



    Rosenthal also says, "The Feast of Trumpets is Israel's dark day. It occurs at the New Moon when the primary night light of the heavens is darkened." (Rosenthal, p. 113) It is the time of Jacob's trouble, not that of the bride of Christ.

    He also admits: "The Feast of Trumpets is next on God's prophetic calendar". I agree. After that last trumpet the Jews entered into a time of woe and mourning. Nothing could be plainer.

  11. #11

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    If possible, it would be great if we could keep the discussion on this thread focused on the tribulation saints, and not digress. In that vein, does anyone have an explanation for these two questions:

    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'. They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?

  12. #12

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    If possible, it would be great if we could keep the discussion on this thread focused on the tribulation saints, and not digress. In that vein, does anyone have an explanation for these two questions:

    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'.
    That's easy: Revelation 6:9. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Many of those converted during that time will be martyred for their faith in Jesus.

    They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'
    There is the general resurrection of the dead but other resurrections that have already taken place in the past (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, & the saints who were seen alive after Jesus death on the cross) so there are exceptions to the rule. Remember that the two witnesses will also rise from the dead (Rev. 11) proving that there are exceptions.

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?
    Yes.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,265
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    I offer it is strictly from a dispensational view and only became popular in the 1800's.

    I think more questions that need to be answered are:
    1- If the church is 'raptured' and then there is a 'tribulation period' when certain people are later converted, although hunted and killed...what happens to this 'separate' group of saints after they die? I mean, they have missed the 'rapture'. They have also missed the resurrection of the saints because the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first. So, what happens to them? If they are a separate group and they cannnot be 'raptured' or 'rise as the dead in Christ.'

    2- Do they just enter the new heavens and new earth for all eternity as mortals? Or what?
    This question is answered in Rev 20:4. There is no need to limit God to only one resurrection. We know that others have been taken without physical death, we also know that after Christ resurrection others were also resurrected. This proof goes even outside what Matthew says about it (27:53) To say that they came back physical mortals says nothing because this was done prior to Christ death. There resurrection proves Christ is able, while Christ resurrection proves His victory.

    3- Is the tribulation the same as the 'wrath of God'? Or is the tribulation the 'wrath of satan who 'makes war with the saints and overcomes them'?
    If Revelation is the seals of Satan's wrath, remember, would that not equate to Christ opening the seals of Satan's wrath?
    All seven seals are opened by Christ. Christ is not only the only One worthy, He is the only One with the right to do so, He is the One who bought and paid for all creation.

    Satan's wrath spoken of in Revelation is the same wrath he has had since the beginning, to destroy God's creatures. His wrath is in full force after he and his minions are cast from heaven. But that wrath is not only against believers, it is against any human being he can destroy. The "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev 12:12) Can he kill a believer and take their physical life, yes, can he destroy them, no. His wrath is to destroy God's creatures and the only ones he can destroy are the ones he can prevent coming to Christ.

    The events in Revelation, for the most part, all but destroy the earth and every living creature, Satan has no right nor is he the one who is "worthy". The earth and all things upon it belong to the One who paid for them, He is the only One with the right and the only one worthy. It's the wrath of the Lamb.

    Have you considered that we could be the ones who are 'alive and remain' until his coming?

    And that all this happens at the same time...the dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain rise to meet them in the air AT THE LAST TRUMP, at his only second coming and the wicked and the unbelieving are destroyed at this same time?
    The last trump is not the seventh trump, that holds no water, especially when a study of trumpets is done, plus, even in the NT we are told that a trumpet must make a specific sound or the people do not know what it means. A trumpet sound of gathering and a trumpet sound of warning cannot be the same sound.




  14. #14

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Here is a quote from Walvoord concerning the tribulation saints: “Never are tribulation saints referred to as a church, or as the body of Christ, or as indwelt by Christ, or as subject to translation, or as a bride… Pretribulationists concede and uniformly teach that there will be elect, that is, saved people, in the tribulation time. This fact does not in the slightest prove that these mentioned in this way belong to the church, the body of Christ.”

    Sounds like there is some discrepancy in the pre-trib camp? I suppose that could be said for every camp though...

  15. #15

    Re: Questions about Tribulations Saints from a Pre-Trib Perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Brother Benji View Post
    Here is a quote from Walvoord concerning the tribulation saints: “Never are tribulation saints referred to as a church, or as the body of Christ, or as indwelt by Christ, or as subject to translation, or as a bride… Pretribulationists concede and uniformly teach that there will be elect, that is, saved people, in the tribulation time. This fact does not in the slightest prove that these mentioned in this way belong to the church, the body of Christ.”

    Sounds like there is some discrepancy in the pre-trib camp? I suppose that could be said for every camp though...
    I think Walvoord is wrong on that point...but it is a minor point anyway.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Bespreking Wegraping: Pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath...of geen?
    By Vertigus in forum Gesprek oor die Eindtye en Aktuele sake
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: Jun 18th 2014, 05:38 PM
  2. Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-Trib Rapture Scripture
    By LaurieF in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: May 31st 2009, 01:01 PM
  3. Questions out of Revelation (mid-trib or post trib only please)
    By JesusMySavior in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 6th 2009, 02:52 AM
  4. Post Trib Believers...Questions???
    By Lady Ashanti in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: Oct 8th 2008, 08:02 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •