Another Denomination Clears Way For Gay Clergy

[Vhayes]

Well, I've never known a church that teaches people WHY we believe certain things, only that we MUST without question. So its not surprising that a generation that has never been taught reason or principle can't defend Christian doctrines.

My first church did. A verse by verse message/study. Sunday morning was one book (some books took years to get through), Sunday night another book, Wednesday night still another. My pastor set up a special Thursday night study for a few of us because we just couldn't get enough "food" within the three existing days.

[Amos_with_goats]

....


Imagine those who are in (some good) churches across the country.

THey have to decide to leave (and maybe have to walk away leaving everything)
or to abide.

I know the decision would be clear, but I am sure it will be heartbreaking for many.

A brother who fellowships at a gathering under a denomination who is going in the same direction as this has really been struggling. His church is split, with 3/4 wanting to leave the denom, and 1/4 wanting to 'go with the flow'.

It turns out the denom has title to the land and buildings. It seems likely that the body will end up forfeiting all this to walk away.

I DO think it is important for all to see that our walk with the Lord is first (and last) a personal walk. If a denom, or a body 'leaves the tracks' (and I DO think that the subject of this thread is an example of that) one would reasonably conclude that
they are to fellowship elsewhere.

As one who stepped away from fellowship for a season, I will say that it can be HARD to walk outside of fellowship... Don't do it.

Do not forsake the gathering together....

However, it is good that our relationship with Christ is not dependent on any one assembly, and CERTAINLY not dependent on any denomination.

We have a High Priest.. and He is Christ.

[Amos_with_goats]

My first church did. A verse by verse message/study......

That is how I teach. The 'inconvenient' passages can not be skipped... Topical can be ok, but there is a temptation to leave out what the Lord would not.

It (can be) more of a challenge, but IMHO it is the best way to study scripture and to teach.

[HisLeast]

The statement of faith of a denomination doesn't say anything about gay ministers. A gay minister can say yes to the statement of faith. Why discriminate?

My critique had nothing to do with "statements of faith", but rather how churches approach issues of morality in general: "This activity is bad cuz the bible says so. Don't ask questions". The end result of suppressing and punshing inquiry is people who flat out can't understand the doctrines they're supposed to uphold.

[Vhayes]

My critique had nothing to do with "statements of faith", but rather how churches approach issues of morality in general: "This activity is bad cuz the bible says so. Don't ask questions". The end result of suppressing and punshing inquiry is people who flat out can't understand the doctrines they're supposed to uphold.

I would also say that humans are wired to rebel against, "Because I said so" when there is no reason forthcoming.

And we wonder why there is so much confusion about things.

[Amos_with_goats]

Well, I've never known a church that teaches people WHY we believe certain things, only that we MUST without question. So its not surprising that a generation that has never been taught reason or principle can't defend Christian doctrines.

This is the bottom line. There can be no such thing as 'borrowed' faith... it is either our or it is not.

I see a dangerous trend in (at least the western) church. Folks seem to want to receive a pre-digested message... I know that in my teaching I am challenged by the Lord to foster and encourage people on their own journey. Someone can forget (or reject) what I say and loose nothing. If they forget or reject what the Lord has said what is left?

[episkopos]

My critique had nothing to do with "statements of faith", but rather how churches approach issues of morality in general: "This activity is bad cuz the bible says so. Don't ask questions". The end result of suppressing and punshing inquiry is people who flat out can't understand the doctrines they're supposed to uphold.

This is true. Too often an indoctrination is utilized rather than a deep understanding through a rigorous discipleship.

[episkopos]

A statement of faith is a distillation of the bible and what that particular denomination believes the bible to say.

Statements of faith are necessary (it makes it fairly clear if a denomination is pretty main line or "out there") but pastors should teach the bible and not the Statement of Faith. If we only teach from Cliff Notes, the student will never know the full, rich story. The only get the shortened version that has no true foundation.

But legally a institution that files for special privileges with the government must abide by the charter of the land.

The KKK for instance discriminates against both gays AND African Americans. Should they have special status and protection from the state?

I say the church NOT be involved in temporal recognitions AT ALL! We should look ONLY to God!

[RabbiKnife]

But legally a institution that files for special privileges with the government must abide by the charter of the land.

The KKK for instance discriminates against both gays AND African Americans. Should they have special status and protection from the state?

I say the church NOT be involved in temporal recognitions AT ALL! We should look ONLY to God!

What does that have to do with anything in this thread? No one has even mentioned government recognition that I recall.

[moonglow]

My critique had nothing to do with "statements of faith", but rather how churches approach issues of morality in general: "This activity is bad cuz the bible says so. Don't ask questions". The end result of suppressing and punshing inquiry is people who flat out can't understand the doctrines they're supposed to uphold.

I have never attended a church like that that didn't explain why...and they allowed and encouraged questions. Not all churches are like what you describe. I have even explained to my son why homosexuality is a sin just as I have explained why the other sins in the bible are sins too.

I am truly saddened to hear the Presbyterian Church has done this... Personally I hope many, many...in huge massive numbers leave that denomination and find ones that teach and stick to the bible. If their demon started to crumple from lack of members maybe they will reconsider... At any rate NO Christian should stay where any church teaches any sin is ok in a pastor or any other leaders of the church.

disclaimer: I realize that pastors are human being, just as imperfect as the rest of us and do sin at times and struggle with sins just like the rest of us...but to say a sinful lifestyle is ok and keep doing it pridefully and with acceptance is a completely different matter. Image a pastor committing adultery and everyone thought that was ok...or regularly stealing from the plate of tithes and everyone thought that was ok...or smoking pot all the time and being high while giving a sermon and everyone thought that was ok...


Isaiah 5:20-21
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!

God bless

[episkopos]

What does that have to do with anything in this thread? No one has even mentioned government recognition that I recall.

A denomination has a legal status with the government as a non-profit organization through a charter.

[RabbiKnife]

Not necessarily.

In the US, contributions to churches and other religious organization are tax deductible to the donor. Period. The church does not have to be a 501(c) qualified or registered organization.

All denominations do not have legal status with the government. They are not required to do so.

[episkopos]

Not necessarily.

In the US, contributions to churches and other religious organization are tax deductible to the donor. Period. The church does not have to be a 501(c) qualified or registered organization.

All denominations do not have legal status with the government. They are not required to do so.

Then how are they legally a denomination...without a charter? Are not all churches required to be registered incorporated businesses in the US? In Canada this is the law! Otherwise you pay taxes and have NO legal status as a religious institution.

[RabbiKnife]

In the US, no church has to file any paperwork with any governmental entity in order to be a church.

ALL contributions to churches are deductible by the donor from their personal income taxes, regardless of whether the church has filed for recognition as a 501(c) organization with the IRS.

Neither churches nor religious denominations are required to file anything in the US, although most do.

All churches are required to pay employment taxes, just like all other businesses.

[episkopos]

In the US, no church has to file any paperwork with any governmental entity in order to be a church.

ALL contributions to churches are deductible by the donor from their personal income taxes, regardless of whether the church has filed for recognition as a 501(c) organization with the IRS.

Neither churches nor religious denominations are required to file anything in the US, although most do.

All churches are required to pay employment taxes, just like all other businesses.

This is surprising! Thanks!