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Thread: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

  1. #1

    Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    The 7 seals are not given in chronological order! That's why the term 'seal' is used. There is no particular order in removing seals to a scroll in order to read the contents thereof.

    The seals, chronologically, are as follow:

    Listed In Time
    1 ---- 6
    2 ---- 3
    3 ---- 4
    4 ---- 2
    5 ---- 1
    6 ---- 7
    7 ---- 5

    Any eschatology, which is based upon the seals being given in chronological order, is fatally flawed.

    1st Listed Seal
    The key to understanding this listed seal lies in the number of the beast [Satan] being 666 in Rev. 13:18, which stands for 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial. In reviewing the seals, one sees that Satan [Antichrist], the rider on the white horse in 6:2, is the first one listed; but, it is listed as "one of the seals" -- not the "first one". Hence, there is dispositive proof that the seals are not given in chronological order. The 1st seal is the 6th seal chronologically pursuant to Rev. 13:18, confirmed by Rev. 9:13-20 and 16:12-16.

    To determine the chronological order of the other 6 seals, one simply needs to correlate them relative to the seal of Satan's appearance.

    6th Listed Seal
    This listed seal is the great day of the Lamb's wrath, which takes place after the seal identifying Satan's appearance [1st listed seal]. It is the 7th seal chronologically as confirmed by Rev. 11:15-19 and 16:17-21.

    7th Listed Seal
    This listed seal comes at the point of silence in heaven for one-half hour. In reading Rev. 17:12, the 10 kings have power given by Satan for one hour. Hence, the release of these 10 kings [Rev. 13:1] has to take place prior to this seventh listed seal. The seventh listed seal is one half hour later.

    This 7th Seal marks the unleashing of the trumpets. The first 5 trumpets precede the 6th trumpet, which identifies the unveiling of Satan. Hence, the 7th seal has to take place prior to Satan's appearance [1st listed seal]. The 7th listed seal is the 5th seal chronologically.

    4th Listed Seal
    This listed seal marks the casting out of heaven of Satan and his fallen angels, of which some will be the 10 kings of Rev. 13:1. It marks the beginning of the hour of silence in heaven. It has to take place prior to the 7th seal [5th chronologically], as the 7th listed seal is after about one-half hour of silence in heaven. The 4th listed seal is the 2nd seal chronologically.

    5th Listed Seal
    This listed seal marks the plea of the martyred saints for the endtime to commence in order to avenge their executions. They are told to wait. This listed seal represents the time of teaching, including the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:3-8. The sealing of the 144,000 takes place prior to the casting out of Satan and the fallen angels [4th listed seal]. Hence, the 5th listed seal is the 1st seal in time.

    3rd Listed Seal
    This listed seal marks the time of the protection of God's elect. Hence, this seal would have to take place after Satan and the fallen angels have been cast out of heaven. It also represents the one-world currency in which no one is allowed to buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast.

    It will take sometime after the 10 kings take control of the one-world gov't, when all economic power can be enforced. Hence, this listed seal comes after the second seal listed. The 3rd listed seal is the 4th seal chronologically.

    2nd Listed Seal
    This listed seal marks the beginning of world peace, which only takes place when Satan's 10 kings take power over the one-world gov't. Hence, this seal has to take place after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven. The first order of business, by edict, from these 10 kings will be world peace. World peace logically precedes the introduction of world currency and, hence, precedes the 3rd listed seal [4th chronologically]. The 2nd listed seal is the 3rd chronologically.

  2. #2
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    Question Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman_2 View Post
    The 7 seals are not given in chronological order! That's why the term 'seal' is used. There is no particular order in removing seals to a scroll in order to read the contents thereof.

    Any eschatology, which is based upon the seals being given in chronological order, is fatally flawed.
    .....
    3rd Listed Seal
    This listed seal marks the time of the protection of God's elect. Hence, this seal would have to take place after Satan and the fallen angels have been cast out of heaven. It also represents the one-world currency in which no one is allowed to buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast.

    THis is an interesting approach.

    Wait, first.. welcome to BibleForums!

    Ok, now that is taken care of...

    I have a few questions, but let me start by asking about the third.

    If it has to take place "take place after Satan and the fallen angels have been cast out of heaven" then why would "the time of the protection of God's elect." be required?

    Let me know if that question fails to make sense.

    Also, you suggest a 'fatal flaw'... how so? What conclusion do you draw from your stated ordering of the seals?
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  3. #3
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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman_2 View Post
    The 7 seals are not given in chronological order! That's why the term 'seal' is used. There is no particular order in removing seals to a scroll in order to read the contents thereof.

    The seals, chronologically, are as follow:

    Listed In Time
    1 ---- 6
    2 ---- 3
    3 ---- 4
    4 ---- 2
    5 ---- 1
    6 ---- 7
    7 ---- 5

    Any eschatology, which is based upon the seals being given in chronological order, is fatally flawed.
    This is where we need to be careful not to read too much into scripture that’s not really there. That certainly applies to the seven seals, which I believe provide a panoramic overview of the Great Tribulation period. What I see is that the seven seals are in chronological order (though not necessarily equally spaced). And this is a place where it helps to let scripture interpret scripture. What you’ll find is how well Matt. 24 and Rev. 6 fit together! In Matt. 24, you’ll notice the things Christ warns His disciples about concerning the times leading up to the Great Tribulation:
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    What I see is the white horse (which is actually a horse of deception) being depicted in v. 5, the red horse in vv. 6-7, and the black and pale horses in v. 7.

    So that covers the first four seals, but what about the last three? The fifth seal (where the martyrs are seen under the altar) is harder for me to place since all we know is that there will still be saints to be martyred in addition to the ones who have already met this fate. So this could be fulfilled at the beginning of the GT, or sometime later. The sixth seal, however, I place at the end of the GT since its language describes the time that the cosmic signs occur, immediately followed by the Day of the Lord, similar to what we read in Matt. 24:29-31:
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    And the seventh seal I place immediately after the GT since Christ and His angels and saints have left heaven to return to earth. The half-hour silence of the seventh seal is all that is needed to convince John that all activity has left heaven and has made its way to earth.
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
    -- Job 19:25

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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    I'm confused, why does it say that Christ opens one of the seals, but then He opens the second seal, then He opens the third, the forth and so on if He is opening them in an order that we must decipher? And how do we decipher it?

    I have a problem with needing a code, or a method. Why can't we just read it? That seems to be the simplest.





  5. #5

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
    THis is an interesting approach.

    Wait, first.. welcome to BibleForums!
    Thank you! That was kind of you.

    Ok, now that is taken care of...

    I have a few questions, but let me start by asking about the third.

    If it has to take place "take place after Satan and the fallen angels have been cast out of heaven" then why would "the time of the protection of God's elect." be required?

    Let me know if that question fails to make sense.
    Who do Satan and the fallen angels persecute once they are cast to earth?? Surely, it is not those Christians who have already been deceived into believing he is Christ. Satan already has those Christians in his camp. It is those Christians, who know the Truth and are not deceived, whom Satan will be persecuting. Satan and his angels persecute God's elect because they are telling the world that he is the fake christ.

    One sees evidence of this in many places in scripture. I will detail a few for you. Mat. 10:17-22 details how God's elect will be delivered up to death [Satan]. Verse 23 details that God's elect are to flee as they are persecuted from city to city until Christ returns. Christ confirms this in Mat. 24:9-10.

    The 'remnant' of Rev. 12:17 are God's elect -- those that have kept the commandments of God and give testimony of Jesus Christ [the true Christ]. They are persecuted by Satan [v. 13, 17], but God is protecting them [v. 14-16]. Obviously, God's elect don't need direct protection from God until Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven. Rev. 13:7 confirms this persecution of the 'saints' [= set aside ones -- God's elect]. In fact, Christ has shortened Satan's tribulation time for the elect's sake [Mat. 24:22, Rev. 9:5].

    Also, you suggest a 'fatal flaw'... how so? What conclusion do you draw from your stated ordering of the seals?
    Well, anyone believing that the listed seals are in chronological order will be unaware of what is going on at the end time. They will have the sequence of events out of order, which might, potentially, having them believe that the first supernatural entity on the scene is Christ. Or, they may be totally dumbfounded and not be prepared for when the true Christ returns. See parable of the 10 virgins [Mat. 25:1-13].

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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    I'm sorry, but I believe the seals are already in the right, chronological order.

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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman_2 View Post
    Well, anyone believing that the listed seals are in chronological order will be unaware of what is going on at the end time. They will have the sequence of events out of order, which might, potentially, having them believe that the first supernatural entity on the scene is Christ. Or, they may be totally dumbfounded and not be prepared for when the true Christ returns. See parable of the 10 virgins [Mat. 25:1-13].
    Perhaps your perspective on the order of the seals is influenced by your interpretive view of the trumpets and vials.

    IMO, seals 1-6 were fulfilled in chronological order in the 1st century, while the 7th seal was opened in the 20th century, and the trumpets and vials to be fulfilled, in order, in the 21st century, everything in its order and time, and without disrupting the ordained and divine order of jugdment.

    BTW, Welcome, to the Forum..

  8. #8

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    What I see is the white horse (which is actually a horse of deception) being depicted in v. 5, the red horse in vv. 6-7, and the black and pale horses in v. 7.
    We need to let the Bible interpret the Bible. The first four seals, that is the four horses with their riders, are interpreted for us in Zechariah 6:1-8:

    {1} Now I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; and the mountains were bronze mountains.
    {2} With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses,
    {3} with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses.
    {4} Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, "What are these, my lord?"
    {5} The angel replied to me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth,
    Zechariah 6:1-5 (NASB)
    The four horses and their riders are spirits. Now, as to whom these spirits are and what they represent, many interpretations have been offered. I don't claim the following is the correct one but, seen in the events of history, it makes the most sense to me:

    White Horse's rider: The Holy Spirit sent into the world at Pentecost 40 days after Christ ascended to the Father. With the Spirit's release, persecution - first from the Jews, then from the Romans - began against Christ's church.

    {34} "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    {35} "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
    {36} and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
    Matthew 10:34-36 (NASB)
    What follows is an intense persecution:

    {1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him [Stephen] to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
    {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him.
    {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.
    Acts 8:1-3 (NASB)
    Paul later admits - in Acts 26:12 - that when Christians were being put to death, he cast his vote against them.

    Christ told the disciples this was coming (Matthew 24:9, John 16:33).

    {10} Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
    {11} and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
    {12} "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
    Luke 21:10-12 (NASB)
    The red, black and pale horses that follow represent those events that unfolded throughout the Roman Empire, especially in Jerusalem and Judea, as a result of the vengeance that would befall Jerusalem for rejecting and crucifying Messiah; events that began with the persecution of the church after the Holy Spirit came upon them.

  9. #9

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    I have a problem with needing a code, or a method. Why can't we just read it? That seems to be the simplest.
    I agree. The simplest interpretation is usually the best one. The thing to remember more than the seals is the one who's opening them. Christ is the one opening the seals. In other words, He is the one passing judgment - literally executing vengeance - against those who broke God's covenant.

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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
    I agree. The simplest interpretation is usually the best one. The thing to remember more than the seals is the one who's opening them. Christ is the one opening the seals. In other words, He is the one passing judgment - literally executing vengeance - against those who broke God's covenant.

    Without
    Zech. 6, it is impossible for one to interpret seals 1-4, on that we agree. However, it also takes the Book of Jeremiah to render an accurate explanation of Zech. 6.

    W
    hat event did you draw on in Jeremiah, for your basis of interpretation, regarding the 5 horses in Zech.6?

  11. #11

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    I agree that the seals have to do with Zech. 5-6 (about Shinar/the north country).
    The seals open as Iraq/Babylon became a nation.

    Zech 5 is about how the land of Shinar is cursed - but Shinar must be rebuilt one day, so this curse of destruction can come upon her land.
    Zech. 6 shows the rising again of that land.
    black horses - to the north country/Euphrates River
    white horses behind them --so also went to the Euphrates River
    /where they one day could get riders/rulers

    1st seal - white /righteousness
    gets a crown /begins the kingdiom

    2nd seal - rulers in the land killed each other
    /great sword
    land divided

    famine in the land that ends
    /hurt not the oil and the wine
    144,000 sealed about this point
    4th seal /man of sin
    little horn
    beast (8th king - but was of the five fallen kings)
    Nebuchadnezzar
    yoke of iron
    trumpets begun

    5th seal - great tribulation
    (all martyrs must wait till all get killed as they were)
    /means even the two witnesses join them - as resting till all come
    in that are to be killed as they were)
    6th trumpet

    6th seal - end of trib signs
    God's wrath begins
    so /7th trumpet goes here

    Rev. 7 - goes back to show the worst part of the seals details.

    7th seal
    silence in heaven
    Isaiah 18 shows God will take His rest after the harvest.
    /in His dwellingplace

    the 7 used to sound trumpets angels will show up
    /time for their soon next plagues jobs
    the first pouring of the vials of God's wrath
    /coming full strength/

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    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Vinsight, first, can you match all 5 horses in Zech.6, along with each event they represent in Jeremiah?
    Don't include seals, trumpets or vials, just a clear explanation of the 5 horses.

  13. #13

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_truth View Post
    Vinsight, first, can you match all 5 horses in Zech.6, along with each event they represent in Jeremiah?
    Don't include seals, trumpets or vials, just a clear explanation of the 5 horses.
    I wll ry to get back to add more later today.
    Here's what I see from Zech. 5.

    KJV
    my summary
    The flying roll is 20 by 10 cubits because Nebuchadnezzar breached the 20 by 10 porch of God's holy temple that Solomon built. Making Babylon cursed as a house /kingdom. This prophecy is written after Babylon's kingdom fell to the Persians. The curse wants to find the guilty party, so it hunts the earth looking. God will bring this curse forth and it {the curse will cause that guilty party's house/ kingdom to be consumed, even the timber and the stones of it. Just as - the temple house was made of timber and stones. The place of God's name -- since the days of Solomon.

    Big hold though comes about -- as Babylon doesn't have a king or a kingdom to consume by the curse.
    So an ephah goes forth - a broken piece - a part of shattered Babylon's kingdom. This ephah goes back to her land - set upon her own base in Shinar. At the stork time -- appointed time{s} - Shinar will rise again. She will be eventually wicked -once more.

    establishing a house in Shinar - shows a kingdom - a throne is coming in Shinar
    in the area of the Euphrates Rivier /Iraq's land

    What is the appointed time left for Shinar?
    Zechariah chapter 6
    /in the latter days of the mountains of brass /Greek kingdom material from Daniel 2)

    out of a kingdom - would come the spirits of kings/rulers
    to build a kingdom -woulld require the spirits of rulers --- as in traits
    Proverbs 8 shows that all rulers of the earth have various ways.
    wisdom
    understanding
    with these one will get a crown given to him
    see Proverbs 4
    counsel
    strength

    knowledge
    /or rejection of this

    fear of the the LORD

    Okay, the bay horses are the fear of the LORD ones, and they go all over.
    But they get quieted by the north country/Euphrates River
    These horses have to stay on the move -for Israel to have peace.

    Let me knkow if this seems to fit with what you find.
    Last edited by vinsight4u8; May 17th 2011 at 04:14 AM.

  14. #14

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_truth View Post

    Without
    Zech. 6, it is impossible for one to interpret seals 1-4, on that we agree. However, it also takes the Book of Jeremiah to render an accurate explanation of Zech. 6.

    W
    hat event did you draw on in Jeremiah, for your basis of interpretation, regarding the 5 horses in Zech.6?
    Well I only see the four types of horses mentioned in Zechariah 6:1-5:

    the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses. "These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth,
    I don't know where you're getting the 5th, but it's not in the text of Zechariah 6.

    As to the events Jeremiah is prophesying, these are the events concerning the first destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 BC. Other than that, I'm not aware of any special link between the prophecies of Jeremiah and those in Zechariah 6.

  15. #15

    Re: Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

    Jeremiah wrote propheces about the north country -placed it as the location of the Euphrates River.

    He told how God speaks as to the rise, fall and pardon of nations.
    He told how God would hide His face when Israel is in trouble by an enemy.
    Jeremiah also told how God does not punish Israel in full amounts (with total strength stuff).
    /ex. - the trumpets happen less than full strength - such as some of them are in thirds

    whereas - the vials are full

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