Once Saved Always Saved (Osas) Is It Supported By God's Holy Word? Pt. 2

[Eccl 12:13]

God IS Fair!

Ezek.18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Now we know what a sinner is. It is one that breaks the laws of God, which, according to God's inspired word, ALL have done. And the scriptures says he that sinneth shall die. Understand the death spoken of here is the second death. Now let's read what happens if the sinner turns from his ways, and stops breaking God's laws, or stop sinning;

[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

So the sinner can change his fate, as long as he is alive that is. If he stops breaking Gods laws none of his transgressions will even be mentioned.

Now let's see if there is a flip side to this. Let's read what happens to the righteous when they stop keeping God’s laws;

[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So all of the good things a righteous person does can be wiped away and counted for nothing if he begins to sin. And does he have the chance to redeem himself? Let's read;

[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Just like the sinner, if the once righteous dies in his sins, he shall die the second death.

This goes hand in hand with what God told Moses;

“Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”

Gods ways are fair and equal for both sinner and righteous, just as He says in His word.

Now some may want to still believe that they know they are saved, and once they are, they always will be, but let's read some verses to see if a NT person thought the same way.

First let’s read what Jesus had to say to some that THOUGHT they were saved.

Matt.7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now let’s read what some of these well meaning people did…

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

First understand just when, “That day” is! This day the Lord speaks of is Judgment day. And it is at this time they find out their fate. Notice they did what THEY thought they should be doing. But what does Jesus tell them? Let’s read….

[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now do you not think these people thought they were saved? That's why they were pleading their case to Jesus.....

"have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

These were not some drug dealers or ladies of the night. These were people that THOUGHT they were doing what was needed for salvation. People that no doubt almost lived in the church, and yet Jesus tells them, "...I never knew you..."!

Jesus tells them all of what they thought was right was in vain. Let’s now read from Jesus own mouth what will give eternal life….

Matt.19
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Now let's read what Paul had to say about the possibility of him NOT making it into God's kingdom;

1Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So even Paul realized that it was possible for him to blow the mission and miss the mark, if he did not keep his body under subjection. So we find that Paul didn’t even consider his salvation guaranteed.

Let’s read a few more things Paul had to say about salvation…

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Paul tells us if we sin willfully after having received all of those things he mentioned earlier in chap.6, enlightenment, the good word of God and the Holy Ghost, there is no more sacrifice. Jesus did it one time and one time only.

The only thing that can remove the curse of death for breaking God’s laws is the shedding of blood;

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Heb.9:22

Jesus died for all of our PAST sins. If we continue to sin willfully, after coming into the knowledge of God’s word, the only thing that remains is, "...a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

God’s law says blood MUST be shed for the remission of sins. We can accept Jesus blood/grace as payment, or we can give ours; either way God is going to require someone’s blood. The gift is there for the taking....the choice is ours whether or not we will accept Jesus free gift.

Paul says it again here;

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

What the scripture is saying is;

For those that have been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift and partakers of the Holy Ghost, if any of these should fall away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, since they have decided to attempt to crucify Christ again, and put what He did to shame. Those that bare thorns and briers will be cursed and whose end is to be burned.


Conclusion

So there you have it.

If a person dies and their name is in God’s book of life they will, “…inherit all things…”! For those that die, having done something to have their name removed, they will be, “…cast into the lake of fire…”!

God says these will be the ones who names are blotted out, “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book;”

And what is sin? “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

The sinner can stop sinning and receive eternal life. “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

The righteous can stop being righteous and die the second death. “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”

If you continue to sin after coming into the knowledge of God’s word there is no more sacrifice. Jesus is not going to die for you again. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

Once you have been enlightened and choose to turn away you cannot be renewed, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame, But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

Nobody finds out until, “…the books were opened…” No one knows for sure until, “That day”

If a name that has been removed is not replaced before they die the lake of fire will be what they inherit!


Once Saved Always Saved……is just not supported by God‘s word !!!!!!!!!!!


.

[My heart's Desire]

I will never believe this point of view is correct and I will tell you why. First this view believes that one is saved and becomes sinless and can stay sinless by their own effort, and if they don't then they are erased from God's book. (mixes Law and Grace). So where is Christ in all of this if one can stay saved by never sinning again?
Surely if Christ only had to die on the Cross once, then surely it was efficient for all Sins, past present and future. Tell me, if one sins after the first time they are saved, then they can never be saved again? Correct. I mean once erased from God's book the minute they sinned, then they can never be saved again right? When was the last time you never sinned? Perhaps, this view says confession of a sin means God puts your name back in? Honestly, if this view is correct then more than likely I was erased from the Book of life, 2 days or less after the day (I quit sinning, if that were possible and was saved). Yes, there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. So what are you gonna do? Offer a blood sacrifice for your sin over and over again in order to be saved again and again? Because I know one knows that as long as we are in this human body, we are gonna sin!
Sorry, I choose to believe the Bible teaches that God knows those who are His. I believe He knows who will make the choice to be saved and I believe we also can be sure of salvation when we are saved and that we always will be saved. I believe The Lord's one time sacrifice on the Cross was and is our provision for sin for all time else indeed we would be shedding His blood over and over again each time we sinned. I mean we'd have to unless we believe He took care of our sin once and for all. And I believe that He did and forever more sees us as sinless regardless of what we do. Why? Because we are in Christ and He doesn't see us, He sees Christ Who is forever sinless! Does that mean that it no longer matters what we do or if we sin? Of course not. It clearly means we can lose fellowship and maybe even our earthly life, but never our salvation.
Yes, I am OSAS and plan on continuing to trust Christ and not my feeble efforts to remain sinless and plan on continuing to know that I know that I am forever saved because I have a forever Saviour Who had the perfect salvation plan for unperfect man. If we are standing on the Rock then we are safe, if we are trusting ourselves, then we are on shaky sand. I choose to trust the Rock.

[My heart's Desire]

BTW, you use the verse in Ezek to illustrate being righteous and turning from righteousness. So, do any of us really know enough about righteousness in order to continue being righteous? If none of us know all about what it means to be righteous then we are capable of being unrighteous at any moment and could be erased from God's Book at any time! Oh, what a fragile situation to base our salvation on. I'd rather Trust Christ and His work on the Cross for me and not on my own work.

[Eccl 12:13]

Surely if Christ only had to die on the Cross once, then surely it was efficient for all Sins, past present and future. Tell me, if one sins after the first time they are saved, then they can never be saved again?

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Now wouldn't you say a person that God considered, enlightened, one that have tasted of the heavenly gift, tasted the good word of God and even made partakers of the Holy Ghost, a person that would be in pretty good standing with the Lord.

If that person was to die just as he is above I would say their chances of getting into God's kingdom are very good.

But what does Paul say next? Let's read it....

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Paul tells us to renew them again unto repentance, would be like trying to crucify Christ all over again and put what He did to an open shame.

Paul uses the word "renew". To make new AGAIN! So where were they before falling away? What WOULD they have inherited had they not fallen away?

Well...let's look at what will become of those that do fall away....

[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Let's look at another of Paul's writings....

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now let's read just WHICH sins are forgiven...

Rom.3
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Now are you SURE that God is going to forgive ALL sins? I know He will forgive PAST sins, but everywhere I read, once you become into the knowledge of this, at some point forgiveness IS GOING TO STOP!!!

Now I know God is merciful, but Paul tells us at SOME point, even with God, there will be a time when it is possible to sin to the point where all we have will be, "...fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Now I, nor does ANYBODY, know when God will say enough is enough...so why take the chance.

But Hey.....believe what you like..... Just like ALL of my lessons....I know ALL will not accept. But I know there will be those that read, study and God will help them to understand.

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

My job is to present the true word of God.

God's job is to open the eyes to whom HE wishes to see and to give delusions to whom HE wishes to delude...

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

That's right.....continue to NOT believe God's true word and He will make it so you will NEVER see the truth and you will continue to believe that lie you want to believe.


.

[david]

The one who conquers will never have his name be blotted out from the book of life (Revelation 3:5). But Romans 8:37 says that we are "more than conquerors through him who loved us." Being more than conquerors, we most definitely conquer as Christians and will never be blotted out from the book of life. Plus, those who believe in God overcome the world according to 1 John 5:5.

None of God's sheep can be lost according to Jeremiah 23:4:
"I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23:4"

[episkopos]

The bible never says..."and they shall fear ME no more". Where it does say something like that it has a negative connotation.

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Rom. 3:18

The fear of the Lord goes against the commonly held view today. This is the sign of the times.

[Eccl 12:13]

The one who conquers will never have his name be blotted out from the book of life "

That's because he that conquers has won. His race is over. He has fought the good fight. But he does not get his prize until ALL get the prize. He will find out if he won when the names are read. Until that time no one knows for sure. that is why these people will question Jesus as judgement...

Matt.7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They thought they had conquered. But did they? Let's read....

[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So....did they win? And when did they find out? AFTER they died, NOT before..

[david]

Can someone who is more than a conqueror (rom 8.37) not conquer? Note that other translations say "we more than conquer" instead of "we are more than conquerors:"

NASB: "we overwhelmingly conquer"
RCV: "we more than conquer"
HSCB: "we are more than victorious"
GW: "overwhelming victory"
Darby: "we more than conquer"
BBE: "we are able to overcome"
YLT: "we more than conquer"
NASB1977: "we overwhelmingly conquer"
NLT: "overwhelming victory"
ISV: "we are triumphantly victorious"

[My heart's Desire]

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Now wouldn't you say a person that God considered, enlightened, one that have tasted of the heavenly gift, tasted the good word of God and even made partakers of the Holy Ghost, a person that would be in pretty good standing with the Lord.

If that person was to die just as he is above I would say their chances of getting into God's kingdom are very good.

But what does Paul say next? Let's read it....

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Paul tells us to renew them again unto repentance, would be like trying to crucify Christ all over again and put what He did to an open shame.

Paul uses the word "renew". To make new AGAIN! So where were they before falling away? What WOULD they have inherited had they not fallen away?

Well...let's look at what will become of those that do fall away....

[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Let's look at another of Paul's writings....

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now let's read just WHICH sins are forgiven...

Rom.3
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Now are you SURE that God is going to forgive ALL sins? I know He will forgive PAST sins, but everywhere I read, once you become into the knowledge of this, at some point forgiveness IS GOING TO STOP!!!

Now I know God is merciful, but Paul tells us at SOME point, even with God, there will be a time when it is possible to sin to the point where all we have will be, "...fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Now I, nor does ANYBODY, know when God will say enough is enough...so why take the chance.

But Hey.....believe what you like..... Just like ALL of my lessons....I know ALL will not accept. But I know there will be those that read, study and God will help them to understand.

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

My job is to present the true word of God.

God's job is to open the eyes to whom HE wishes to see and to give delusions to whom HE wishes to delude...

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

That's right.....continue to NOT believe God's true word and He will make it so you will NEVER see the truth and you will continue to believe that lie you want to believe.


.

Verses out of context will always yield these results. When we study the whole truth of God we then know the truth of God. The verses given are always given when some add effort to what the Cross has always accomplished. My belief stands.

[dan p]

That's because he that conquers has won. His race is over. He has fought the good fight. But he does not get his prize until ALL get the prize. He will find out if he won when the names are read. Until that time no one knows for sure. that is why these people will question Jesus as judgement...

Matt.7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They thought they had conquered. But did they? Let's read....

[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So....did they win? And when did they find out? AFTER they died, NOT before..

Hi , and when verses that speak to israel are used it does not make sense .

In Eph 2:8 , it reades , " for by grace are you HAVING BEEN SAVED " is in the Greek Perfect Tense , passive Voice and a Participle which is the words " havin been saved " is the correct Translation .

#1 , The word SOZO in verse 8 , which is in the Perfect Tense means Past Action in the Past with Continuing Results and that means you can only be saved once and that Jesus can never be put on a cross to die EVER AGAIN .

#2 , The Passive Voice just means that God did the saving and IF He did the saving , He keeps us saved and not us .

#3 , In John 19:30 , where Jesus said " it is finished " is also in the Perfect Tense and it is easy to check that it is correct

#4 , We did not save ourselves , so how can we keep our selves saved ??? We can not !!

OSAS , DAN P

[Michael Snow]

The problem with OSAS discussons is that they always assume that there are only 3 positions. OSAS is a modern banner that does not agree with the biblical position of the perseverance of the saints. Read Calvin's commentary on the parable of the seed.

As for Calvin and Wesley, they both would agree that someone who did not persevere was lost. The difference is that Calvin would say that that person was not saved in the first place. Wesley might recognize such a person as having been a real Christian, saved, before he fell

OSAS says that anyone who makes a profession of faith is saved no matter what.

[Digital_Angel_316]

It's more about running the race than conquering.

One can only conquer as one proceeds along down the path of apologetics/evangelism. It is not a past tense concept, it is a current and future tense -- we are in battle now, we expect to be in battle with evil forces in the future.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Corinthians. 10:12

You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. 2 Peter 3:17

[ProjectPeter]

What I find interesting, this thread is no exception, that folks really never want to talk about the passages offered. Post such as "taking verses out of context" etc... but then there is no showing how those verses are taken out of context. Easy to holler "WRONG" but a whole lot more complicated showing how it is actually wrong.

[notuptome]

What I find interesting, this thread is no exception, that folks really never want to talk about the passages offered. Post such as "taking verses out of context" etc... but then there is no showing how those verses are taken out of context. Easy to holler "WRONG" but a whole lot more complicated showing how it is actually wrong.

Which comes first? The doctrine or the scripture?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[ProjectPeter]

Quips such as this just proves the point. That first post has a number of Scripture and there is much more. But notice, as you read the thread, how little those passages are actually addressed? What we see instead... "out of context" with no explanation as to how those passages are taken out of context. Then naturally the little quips such as you toss out. Tells a bunch Roger!