Once Saved Always Saved (Osas) Is It Supported By God's Holy Word? Pt. 1

[Eccl 12:13]

Himself. God already knew it.

Justify means to clear of guilt, remove sin.

Knowing this.......do you still want to go with, "Himself" as your answer?


It was the 'action', or works of Abraham that justified him. His 'works' cleared him of sin.

Can works alone clear one of sin? No!

Can faith alone clear one of sin? No!

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Let's read what God said about Abraham....

Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son.

Abraham had faith.....

Gen.22
[8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And Abraham performed works.....

[10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Now you talk about faith AND works working hand in hand. The SAMETHING is needed today.

We have to BELIEVE God's words....then

We have to DO what those words tells us to do!


.

[awestruckchild]

I will tell you the reason Jesus came to die.

God said this...

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

The remission was that of sin.

For whatever reason only know to God, God said that the ONLY way sin can be removed from man, is that blood must be shed. Now let's read who has sinned....

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." OT
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" NT

Sin first happened with Adam. When he sinned blood HAD to be shed, it was God's law. So what happened?

First this....

Gen.3
[7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Now I'm sure you have seen skirts of grass and all sorts of flower, leaf and grass coverings on some people all over the world. So this should have been fine for Adam and Eve. But look at what God did for them...

[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now just think about it for a moment. What was required to produce coats of skin? Blood shed. God killed and shed the blood of animals so that He would not have to kill His creation. God HAD to have a way out, just incase man screwed up. Because when He said it was finished, He meant it. God was NOT going to create ANOTHER man.

Now let's jump forward a bit. God gave man laws, but did man keep them? No. Man kept breaking God's laws. So God came with a flood. God wiped out Sodom. But man continued.

Finally God decided to have a nations of people where He would be their God and their king...Israel. Now after over 400 years of bondage you would think that these people would do ANYTHING the true and living God said seeing it was Him that brought them out of Egypt...but they did not. They sinned.

But God's law still stood.... "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

So God set up the Laws for the Levitical Preisthood. And guess was their job was? Shed blood for the remission of sin.

Soooooo.........did it work? Fast forward to Christ and Him dying on the cross......

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

This is why Christ had to die.......for the remission of sins. Because had he not, WE would have had to die for our OWN sins! It was God's OTHER out to save His creation.

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

And what happened the moment Christ died....?

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."
"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."

The job of the Levites was done. No veil, meant no more sacrifices to do.

Their DEEDS and WORKS were complete. Let's read....

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


This is why Jesus had to die.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



.

ARRGHH!
More confused now!
Maybe I need to go back and read your first post again. I got the impression (probably wrongly ) that you were saying we could be snatched from His hand depending on if we do or do not follow the law. But that can't have been what you were saying because in this post you lay out how you do believe no one has ever kept it....I'll read it one more time and try to figure out what you were saying. Thanks for at least trying to clear up my confusion.

[awestruckchild]

I wonder how this verse fits in:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

WOW...who put THAT in the bible! ode to Calvin

Hi SW-
That wasn't the verse I was thinking of-the one I was thinking of said......something about how men aren't justified through works of the flesh. And I think I kind of understood it, like it was saying...well, like how circumcision is a work of the flesh, of men, and that this avails nothing but that Jesus comes to us in the Holy Spirit and when HE does the work in us in spirit/truth, cutting our heart, this is what avails anything. Or like how fasting is a work of man, but it is when we are put on the true fast by the Holy Spirit withdrawaing or....hiding from our awareness and we get so sad because we miss sensing Him and then we mourn when He is taken away from our senses like that, this is the work that avails us anything because it is Him purifying us which the work of the flesh fasting (abstaining from food) cannot fulfill because only the work of the Spirit can avail us anything. Like....works of the flesh/human effort/letter is what kills but the Spirit is what gives life.

[awestruckchild]

By works of the flesh, Paul usually means the Mosaic Law.

Hi butch-
But the Mosaic law is very, very good and Jesus did not come to do away with even a single word of it. Instead, He came to see that it was truly fulfilled in honesty, inside, in spirit in each of us. Not the human working of keeping the letter, but through trusting in Him to fulfill it in us. So I don't think works of the flesh=Mosaic law, because the law is good and works of the flesh are not good. They can't equal each other. I think works of the flesh=human effort to obey it. Kind of like how Abraham and Sarah were told by God they would have a son and instead of trusting and believing what He said and waiting for Him to fulfill it, they tried to do it by works of the flesh. The child of their own effort(works of the flesh) had to be sent away and could not inherit. Only the child of God's effort and work received the promise.

I am trying to get more into the Mosaic law and see if I can see where He has fulfilled more of it in me other than fasting and circumcision.

[shepherdsword]

Hi SW-
That wasn't the verse I was thinking of-the one I was thinking of said......something about how men aren't justified through works of the flesh. And I think I kind of understood it, like it was saying...well, like how circumcision is a work of the flesh, of men, and that this avails nothing but that Jesus comes to us in the Holy Spirit and when HE does the work in us in spirit/truth, cutting our heart, this is what avails anything. Or like how fasting is a work of man, but it is when we are put on the true fast by the Holy Spirit withdrawaing or....hiding from our awareness and we get so sad because we miss sensing Him and then we mourn when He is taken away from our senses like that, this is the work that avails us anything because it is Him purifying us which the work of the flesh fasting (abstaining from food) cannot fulfill because only the work of the Spirit can avail us anything. Like....works of the flesh/human effort/letter is what kills but the Spirit is what gives life.

Hello awestruck,
I agree with what you are saying here but let's take a look at John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There conditions to this. Firstly,his sheep hear his voice. Secondly he knows them. Thirdly,they follow him. and then he does what all good shepherds do...he feeds them...with eternal life. The error that OSAS believers make is that they take conditional promises out of context and misapply them. We have to hear his voice. In the scripture we are told ..."if any man has ears to hear let him hear" "Today if you hear his voice,harden not your heart". This is a condition that must be fulfilled in order for us to be led by him. If sin is what is destroying us how can we be saved if we are not being led out of it? Jesus also said to some that claimed to do many mighty works in his name"depart from me you workers of iniquity,I never knew you" The word "know" in both of these passages is the same word used in the Sept. when we are told "Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived a son" Jesus is saying to them that "you never allowed me to be intimate with you,why didn't you follow me and do what I say?" I was OSAS for the first fews years of my walk. Once I got the revelation of what Jesus and the apostles where saying in the gospel and the epistles the bible fit together like a giant puzzle. I struggled with too many apparent contradictions before that.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Really?

Believe what you will. This lesson is for those that may have never looked at the scriptures in this light. This lesson is for those that may have questioned the whole OSAS doctrine. Some may have never read the scriptures that have been presented. God tells us and used some pretty definite words, "impossible", "will I blot out", "shall he die"!

Now if you want to believe there is a difference between The Book of Life, God's Book of Life, The Lambs Book of life, then please go right ahead. You will get no argument from me.

All I know is this! God's word is true! Someones names WILL be removed from "A" Book! And God tells us this.....

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

"When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

And to sin is to break the laws of God.

Now YOU may not accept God's words but I KNOW for a fact there is somebody out there saying to themselves, "I just cannot believe that God will accept someone into His kingdom that may have once followed and accepted Him and have now turned away." I'm sure someone is putting two and two together and saying, "Wait one minute, God's word clearly says that,

'For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.',

and

'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.',

So how can everyone of these be accepted.

Someone know that OSAS does not line up with scriptures. That's who this lesson is for.

Hello E...

So, by your logic that you have detailed thus far, there will one day be in your future - that you will lose your faith in Jesus Christ?

The question I have for folks who declare faith within others is where do they personally stand in their own faith... Do you today believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and also believe that you will walk away from that belief?

[notuptome]

Justify means to clear of guilt, remove sin.

This requires blood.

We have to BELIEVE God's words....then

We have to DO what those words tells us to do!


.

We are told to believe, to trust. Jesus did all that needed to be done. It is finished...we are created in the image and likeness of God...God seeks that we should have communion with Him as this is the reason we were created. This is the reason Christ went to the cross of Calvary...to redeem us, to justify us, and to glorify us with Him in eternity. Redemption is not obtained by works, justification is not obtained by works, and glorification is not obtained by works. Grace alone is sufficient.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[awestruckchild]

Hello awestruck,
I agree with what you are saying here but let's take a look at John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There conditions to this. Firstly,his sheep hear his voice. Secondly he knows them. Thirdly,they follow him. and then he does what all good shepherds do...he feeds them...with eternal life. The error that OSAS believers make is that they take conditional promises out of context and misapply them. We have to hear his voice. In the scripture we are told ..."if any man has ears to hear let him hear" "Today if you hear his voice,harden not your heart". This is a condition that must be fulfilled in order for us to be led by him. If sin is what is destroying us how can we be saved if we are not being led out of it? Jesus also said to some that claimed to do many mighty works in his name"depart from me you workers of iniquity,I never knew you" The word "know" in both of these passages is the same word used in the Sept. when we are told "Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived a son" Jesus is saying to them that "you never allowed me to be intimate with you,why didn't you follow me and do what I say?" I was OSAS for the first fews years of my walk. Once I got the revelation of what Jesus and the apostles where saying in the gospel and the epistles the bible fit together like a giant puzzle. I struggled with too many apparent contradictions before that.

He is leading me out of it. That is my point - HE is leading me out of it. HE is changing me to be more and more like His Son. He has promised me that no one can snatch me from His hand. This means I cannot lose my salvation. If I didn't know this, I would not be able to rest in Him and be led from glory to glory because I would be frightened and fear again that I better start working to obey. My love and gratitude would become fear and I would be yoked again. I would be striving to bring about the child He has promised by my own effort and He would refuse this child because the work of my flesh avails nothing.

This brings to mind something I read the other day that confused me. I will have to try to check on who the author was but I think it may have been Dwight Moody. He said that God leads some by a more passive way and others by a more....wrestling. But I couldn't understand it. I thought maybe it was both for all of us, depending at what stage of a thing we are in. We wrestle, but then on that matter we become passive and trusting once we have truly understood it.

[shepherdsword]

He is leading me out of it. That is my point - HE is leading me out of it. HE is changing me to be more and more like His Son. He has promised me that no one can snatch me from His hand. This means I cannot lose my salvation. If I didn't know this, I would not be able to rest in Him and be led from glory to glory because I would be frightened and fear again that I better start working to obey. My love and gratitude would become fear and I would be yoked again. I would be striving to bring about the child He has promised by my own effort and He would refuse this child because the work of my flesh avails nothing.

This brings to mind something I read the other day that confused me. I will have to try to check on who the author was but I think it may have been Dwight Moody. He said that God leads some by a more passive way and others by a more....wrestling. But I couldn't understand it. I thought maybe it was both for all of us, depending at what stage of a thing we are in. We wrestle, but then on that matter we become passive and trusting once we have truly understood it.

You are being led out of sin and you are resting in him,therefore you are correct,no man can snatch you from his hand

[Caleb]

Not saying that you would, but let's say you did Stop keeping the commandments of the Lord and did not repent before you passed...do you think your chances would be just as good for getting into Gods kingdom as they were BEFORE you turned away?

We ALL will be judged! Do you know what that means? Jesus will have some sort of standard He will use to base His decision on. Let's read it....

Rev.20
1.[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
2.[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now if their fate was sealed at their death, what need is there to judge?

And note WHAT they were judged on. Was it their faith? NO! It was based on their WORKS!

.

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also is raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession on our behalf.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Even as it has been written, "For Your sake we are killed all the day; we are counted as sheep of slaughter." Psa. 44:22
Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him loving us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

Paul (full of the Holy Spirit) is persuaded that no one and nothing, zero, zilch, can separate us from the love of Christ, but you do not agree with him.

[Caleb]

Hello awestruck,
I agree with what you are saying here but let's take a look at John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There conditions to this. Firstly,his sheep hear his voice. Secondly he knows them. Thirdly,they follow him. and then he does what all good shepherds do...he feeds them...with eternal life. The error that OSAS believers make is that they take conditional promises out of context and misapply them. We have to hear his voice. In the scripture we are told ..."if any man has ears to hear let him hear" "Today if you hear his voice,harden not your heart". This is a condition that must be fulfilled in order for us to be led by him.

Jesus said, My sheep hear.

He did not say My sheep must or need to hear, but they hear.
God said 'let there be light and there was light'

[Servant89]

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also is raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession on our behalf.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Even as it has been written, "For Your sake we are killed all the day; we are counted as sheep of slaughter." Psa. 44:22
Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him loving us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

Paul (full of the Holy Spirit) is persuaded that no one and nothing, zero, zilch, can separate us from the love of Christ, but you do not agree with him.

That list is about things outside of you. No one outside of you and nothing outside of you can separate you from God. But you can separate yourself with unbelief.

Shalom

[Servant89]

I wonder how this verse fits in:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

WOW...who put THAT in the bible! ode to Calvin

The Bible repeats itself many times on this. The works of the law do not justify anyone (gal 2:16,21; gal 5:4). The works being mentioned here are works that validate our faith. Faith must be active. Satan has passive faith. That is why the works that validate our faith are consistently works that have nothing to do with keeping the law because by keeping the law, no one will be justified.

For example, in the faith hall of fame we have,

By faith, Abraham went to kill his son, murder is not a good thing to do... According to the law
By faith, Rahab the prostitute lied to her people and became a traitor, not a good thing..according to the law.
By faith, the Gibeonites in Joshua chapter 9 lied to Joshua and got saved...
By faith, Jacob lied to his father to get the spiritual blessing and later on disobeyed God by fighting the angel to get the blessing, on both instances, disobeying God's commandments, in order to get the eternal spiritual blessings. Jacob i love, Esau i hate... Said the Lord.

All those are actions that validated their faith, and at the same time can not be misinterpreted as Self Righteousness because not one of those actions validate how good people were in terms of keeping the law.

By faith, Jesus worked on the day of rest, to heal people, because he loves people, more than he loves impressing people with how well he kept the law, see John 5:16-18.

Shalom

[david]

Amen. Works in faith are not works of the Law. They are completely different. Works of the Law do not justify anyone (Galatians 2:16), while faith with works justify people (James 2:24). Perhaps this is what many are confused about on these forums.

[Caleb]

That list is about things outside of you. No one outside of you and nothing outside of you can separate you from God. But you can separate yourself with unbelief.

Shalom

IMHO, I think it is impossible for a true believer to un-believe.

I can find no scripture to support your claim, so perhaps you could help and furnish us with some.

Doesn’t Paul say that even ‘life’ will not separate us?