Jesus Christ is the only “…First born from the dead.”

[Eccl 12:13]

There are some that believe those that die in “good favor” or with a “good report“ with God immediately go to be with Him at the moment of their death. To them I have this question, “Just how did that work for Lazarus, or any of the others that were born, died, was brought back to life AND died again; whether in the OT or NT?”

Let’s look at it for a moment……

They were ALL born flesh and blood, BUT.......

When they died they became a "spirit being"; something they HAD to become to be in the presence of God, “…Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption…” THEN......
God put them BACK into a corruptible flesh and blood body to bring them back to life, to live hear on earth just to die again, THEN.......

They went back to being a "spirit being" when he died the SECOND time?

Think about it…..what was once a corruptible body was made perfect when they dies. Then it was made a corruptible body again, just to be made perfect again? Does that make sense?

Now if the above is true, how is it that the scriptures says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead? Let’s read it…..

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

It would seem that whoever was the first that was raised from the dead should claim that title before Christ, but yet the scriptures says that Christ was the first born of many brethren.

Something just does not add up here, UNLESS........

Christ did something that was DIFFERENT from ALL of those others that was raised from the dead or have died with a good report!!!
Jesus resurrection HAD to be different!!!!!

Let’s read about some saints that ALL died with a good report but are yet waiting for the promise of eternal life…..
　
Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And just who were these saints that died with a good report but have NOT received the promise of eternal life? Let’s read a few names Paul mentions……
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gedeon, Sampson, Jephthae, David, Samuel, and of the prophets…..just to name a few.

Now let’s read if any of the above received the promise of eternal life. Let‘s read if ANY of those that died with a “good report“ have yet received their immortal, or incorruptible bodies. Again let’s read Heb.11:39-40.

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now before going any further let’s again go over just a few names Paul said…..
ENOCH, ABRAHAM and MOSES!

Now why did I single these out? Because I know there are those that will TRY to use these names to justify what THEY think is the truth! Let’s look at each one.

ENOCH - There are those that will say, “But the bible says, “…Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”, so doesn’t that mean he has his immortal body, perfect and incorruptable? Well, let’s read what Paul said about the statement above AND about Enoch’s current state.

Heb.11:[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So Paul knew the story of Enoch and how he was translated and that God took him. But what did Paul say next? Let’s read it again…

Heb.11[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So NO!!! Enoch does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body yet. Do I know where Enoch is? Of course not! But I do know what Paul just told us. Next…

ABRAHAM - There are those that will say, “But didn’t Jesus say, ‘…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom…’. Doesn’t that mean Abraham is now with the Lord?”


Let’s first find out what type of story Jesus was telling.

Mark 4
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
[33] And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
[34] But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

So we understand that Jesus TAUGHT by parables. Jesus used parables as tools to convey His doctrine. And we find that Jesus ONLY used parables when He spoke around those other than His disciples. Now let’s find if the story of the beggar and Abraham was a parable or not.

Now to find if the story Jesus told was a parable we must go to the previous chapter; Luke 15. Let’s read…

Luke 15
[1] Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
[2] And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
[3] And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

So we know who was around listening to Jesus. Now let’s go into the next chapter….

Luke 16
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

We find Jesus is STILL talking in parables. Now let’s read who ELSE was there listening….

[14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Now let’s read His next LESSON…..

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

So there we have it. Jesus ONLY spoke in parables when there were others around listening to Him speak. The story of the beggar and Abraham was just that…A STORY!!

And besides, Paul tells us, “…And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

So NO!! Abraham does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body yet. Next…..

MOSES - And finally there are some that will say, “But didn’t Moses appear with Jesus?” Well let’s read that account.


Matt.17
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
[3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

So yes! Moses did appeared with Jesus. But was it real? Let’s read….
[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Jesus said, “…Tell the VISION to no man…”. So what the apostles saw was simply a vision. Just as Paul and John and many others throughout the entire bible have had.
And again we have the writings of Paul telling us…“…And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:”

So NO!!! Moses does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body either!!
And last, but not least, we have the “Other” scripture that will try to be used to get loved ones with the Lord…

2 Cor.5
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Now why is it no one ever reads the next verse? WHEN will we be present with the Lord? Let’s read it…

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

First we ALL must appear before the judgment seat. Now does that happen in a corruptible body? NO! That happens when we have a perfect body
And when will we become perfect or incorruptible (not capable of DYING)?
At the same time Paul and ALL the other saints that died with a good report get theirs….

1 Cor.15
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Death was NOT swallowed up or ended when Lazarus or ANY others were brought back to life, for ALL of them had to die again. Nor were any that died with a good report given an eternal, incorruptible, immortal, perfect body.

But when Jesus was raised from the dead he was given a "spirit body", an “immortal body”, an “incorruptible body”, one that would NOT return to being flesh and blood!
Jesus received something NO flesh and blood body has EVER received!!!
This is why the scriptures are correct when they say;

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus resurrection WAS different!!!
　
JESUS CHRIST.......THE ONLY "FIRST BORN from the dead"!!!!


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[percho]

One of my favorite questions. Was Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas more glad or more sad that Peter raised her from the dead?

[awestruckchild]

Hey again, Eccl-
I wanted to know what you thought about some things in your other thread but you haven't answered me yet. Will wait before I go on to your part 2 because my head will get too jumbled and explode or something!

So then how do you read the verse that says they saw many of their dead walking around? It's in one of the gospels I think...what do you make of it?

[BroRog]

The term "first born" in this context doesn't indicate that Jesus' birth came before all others in time. Rather Paul is using the term "first born" to indicate Jesus' rank.

[Eccl 12:13]

What Paul is saying is that Jesus was the first to have been born flesh, then died, raised from the dead AND given a spirit body. There have been many that have been born, died and raised from the dead. But NONE of them have been given a spirit body.

That is why Paul sais the following...

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

ANd what was the promise? What was the perfection they were waitng for?

This.......

1 Cor.15
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

None of the saints that have died now have their perfect bodies...thier spirit bodies.

Like I said....many have been born, died and was raised from the dead...but they ALL died again. Yet waiting for their change to come.

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[percho]

The term "first born" in this context doesn't indicate that Jesus' birth came before all others in time. Rather Paul is using the term "first born" to indicate Jesus' rank.

It does not say he is firstborn as in rank of everything that exist. It says he was the firstborn from the dead. In what follows, that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Should read
that in all he might have the preeminence. Things is not there. Rocks do not die. Is he the firstborn from the dead of rocks? He is the first and presently only living soul that died and was raised from the dead. The only soul raised from Hades with an incorruptible body. He came in the flesh by water and blood. Just as Adam was made a little lower than the angels so also was Jesus made a little lower than the angels. Speaking of the Word made flesh, Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After the resurrection his soul (personality) was in a spiritual body. He is the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear (at our resurrection/change) the image of the heavenly. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. When we are conformed to his image at our resurrection/change then he will be the firstborn of many born from the dead.

[BroRog]

What Paul is saying is that Jesus was the first to have been born flesh, then died, raised from the dead AND given a spirit body. There have been many that have been born, died and raised from the dead. But NONE of them have been given a spirit body.

While that might be true, the notion you presented to us here isn't what "first born from the dead" was intended to communicate.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

The phrase "so that" indicates purpose. If we go with your interpretation, Paul would be saying that God predestined those whom he foreknew in order that Jesus might be the first to receive his "spirit body." The problem is, there is no obvious connection between God's prior decision to cause the elect to be similar to the Son and the idea that Jesus was the first to receive a spirit body (assuming such a thing happened.) But Paul wasn't saying that God had to preordain the destiny of people so that Jesus could get is spirit body first. Rather, Paul is saying that God decided to conform the elect to the image of his son so that he might be the leader, or the superior among that group of people who are like him. The term "firstborn" here, refers to Jesus' rank as the head man, the chief, the person in charge.

[BroRog]

It does not say he is firstborn as in rank of everything that exist. It says he was the firstborn from the dead. In what follows, that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Should read
that in all he might have the preeminence. Things is not there. Rocks do not die. Is he the firstborn from the dead of rocks? He is the first and presently only living soul that died and was raised from the dead. The only soul raised from Hades with an incorruptible body. He came in the flesh by water and blood. Just as Adam was made a little lower than the angels so also was Jesus made a little lower than the angels. Speaking of the Word made flesh, Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After the resurrection his soul (personality) was in a spiritual body. He is the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear (at our resurrection/change) the image of the heavenly. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. When we are conformed to his image at our resurrection/change then he will be the firstborn of many born from the dead.

I think we are saying the same thing. Do you think we aren't?

[Eccl 12:13]

Paul is saying that God decided to conform the elect to the image of his son so that he might be the leader, or the superior among that group of people who are like him. The term "firstborn" here, refers to Jesus' rank as the head man, the chief, the person in charge.

The above is wrong!

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear (at our resurrection/change) the image of the heavenly. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. When we are conformed to his image at our resurrection/change then he will be the firstborn of many born from the dead.

And the above here is right!

NO!!!! You two are NOT saying the samething!

Paul is telling us, just as ALL of the saints that died with a good report have NOT received their perfect immortal bodies, nor has ANYONE else.

We will ALL get them at the same time. Paul said just what he meant.

JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS BORN OF FLESH, DIED, WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND GIVEN A SPIRIT BODY, JUST AS THE ONE HE HAD BEFORE!!!!

Paul is NOT speaking about rank! Do not be shy....this is NOT the time to try to stay friendly! Time is short and people need to know the true word of God!



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[percho]

The above is wrong!



And the above here is right!

NO!!!! You two are NOT saying the samething!

Paul is telling us, just as ALL of the saints that died with a good report have NOT received their perfect immortal bodies, nor has ANYONE else.

We will ALL get them at the same time. Paul said just what he meant.

JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS BORN OF FLESH, DIED, WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND GIVEN A SPIRIT BODY, JUST AS THE ONE HE HAD BEFORE!!!!

Paul is NOT speaking about rank! Do not be shy....this is NOT the time to try to stay friendly! Time is short and people need to know the true word of God!



.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

He lived around thirty three years and died. He died this death, Genesis 2:17 YLT "dying thou dost die." for that was the wages to be paid mankind for the first man Adam's sin. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Except the Son of man Jesus. He willingly died that same death for us.

Then.

who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

I agree with you.

[BroRog]

The above is wrong!



And the above here is right!

NO!!!! You two are NOT saying the samething!

Paul is telling us, just as ALL of the saints that died with a good report have NOT received their perfect immortal bodies, nor has ANYONE else.

We will ALL get them at the same time. Paul said just what he meant.

JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS BORN OF FLESH, DIED, WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND GIVEN A SPIRIT BODY, JUST AS THE ONE HE HAD BEFORE!!!!

Paul is NOT speaking about rank! Do not be shy....this is NOT the time to try to stay friendly! Time is short and people need to know the true word of God!



.

You still have two problems with your presentation: 1) firstborn is not primariy about birth order. It involves birth order, but the essential significance of being born first is rank in the family. 2) Resurrection is NOT a birth, contrary to pagan ideas celebrated in the Spring time.

[Firstfruits]

We know that according to scripture that the soul of Jesus went to the grave until he was resurrected, are you saying that the same applies to all?

Firstfruits

[Eccl 12:13]

We know that according to scripture that the soul of Jesus went to the grave until he was resurrected, are you saying that the same applies to all?
Firstfruits

I'm not saying it......God's word says it;

Eccl.9
[2] All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

Wow! Whatever event Solomon is talking about, it is NOT a respecter of persons. It touches the righteous AND the wicked.

[3] This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

So the event is Death! It happens to us ALL!

[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
[7] Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
[8] Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
[9] Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.


1 Cor.15
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

But are flesh bodies Spirit? Let's read...;

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

So the raised dead will have an incorruptible body, meaning one that will not die. Let's read more;

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So no one gets their spirit bodies until they come OUT of the grave. Let's read more;

[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So again, we do NOT get a spirit body until AFTER we are raised. Here is more;

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


But when did Jesus receive His perfect body?

After He rose from the grave.

Jesus was the first to be born, die, raised AND become perfect!

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[Eccl 12:13]

You still have two problems with your presentation: 1) firstborn is not primariy about birth order. It involves birth order,......

Prove to me from God's word that somebody BEFORE Jesus was born of a woman, died, was raised from the dead and now have their perfect immortal body and is now a "spirit" being.

1 Cor.15
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

So the raised dead will have an incorruptible body, meaning one that will not die. Let's read more;

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So no one gets their spirit bodies until they come OUT of the grave. Let's read more;

[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So again, we do NOT get a spirit body until AFTER we are raised. Here is more;

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

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[episkopos]

Jesus is the first born of the new creation. Jesus Christ is both man and God. We are only human...that is until we are regenerated with a divine nature. We now have the capacity to grow INTO Christ.

So when we attain to Christ we will be as our Master. Then we will be as He is in the world.

Also Jesus Christ was raised into His immortal body. We still await for that event after the judgment. May we live worthily in Him until then!