The Rapture Theory

[DaveGerard]

How is it then that they don't live again during this time, if they are living again during this time? That's not making much sense to me.

Living and eternal life are not the same thing.

See Ez. 37:1-14 regarding the whole house of Israel being dried bones, but the breathe of life was brought into them and they did live. The house of Israel was not dead physically. They were dead spiritually.

See Luke 16:19-31 regarding Lazarus and the rich man. Was the rich man alive when he was talking to Abraham and asking him to send back Lazarus to tell his family the truth about heaven? The rich man existed and could talk, but was dead in spirit. Christ was giving us a snapshot of what it is like in the hereafter. So shall it be for the dead of Rev 20:5.

The dead of Rev. 20:5 are spiritually dead. They aren't laying in the ground somewhere waiting to be judged. They simply don't have Christ and have not been given eternal life. They need to go through the Millenium and be judged before they can receive eternal life. They are judged according to their works. Not works of the flesh, but works in the Millenium. They exist, but are dead just as the rich man.

[thedee]

I am surprised that there has not been much emphasis on 1 Cor 15:52. Maybe pre-tribbers realize that the last trump (7th trump) is after Antichrist appears at the 6th trump and that this could not be referring to the rapture. Just an observation.

We do however need some more pre-trib folks to weigh in and make their case. Share some scripture. Come on guys/gals, we are your brethren. We just want to debate the issue.

The last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) or the trumpet in 1Thes4 has nothing to do with the judgement trumpets of Revelation.

If you read 1Thes4 I believe the Trumpet to be speaking of the Lords voice. It is describing the Lords voice. Consider the following:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet" - Rev 1:10
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." - Rev 4:1

So we see the Lord will descend with a SHOUT "COME UP HERE".

[DaveGerard]

So you feel that God does NOT want to save as many as possible. He does NOT want this generation to be fully mature in Christ?

What did I say to give you that idea? God wants all to come to repentance and have eternal life. Will they all? No. Many will follow Satan and perish.

[DaveGerard]

I agree! Not everyone will die during the tribulation. People will continue to be born as before, but the saints will rule over them in the Millenial kingdom.

Please document where it is written that people will still be born in the Millenium.
And who said anything about everyone dying during the tribulation?

[DaveGerard]

The last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) or the trumpet in 1Thes4 has nothing to do with the judgement trumpets of Revelation.

If you read 1Thes4 I believe the Trumpet to be speaking of the Lords voice. It is describing the Lords voice. Consider the following:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet" - Rev 1:10
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." - Rev 4:1

So we see the Lord will descend with a SHOUT "COME UP HERE".

So you are saying that Rev 4:1 is referring to the rapture of the church. Last I checked, it was John that was taken immediately in the spirit to be shown what was to come to pass. Are you implying that John is the church? That's a stretch.

[episkopos]

What did I say to give you that idea? God wants all to come to repentance and have eternal life. Will they all? No. Many will follow Satan and perish.

But doesn't God want to give men a final chance before the great deception wins out? And THIS gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole earth...then the end will come!

[episkopos]

Please document where it is written that people will still be born in the Millenium.
And who said anything about everyone dying during the tribulation?

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment (or authority to rule) was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Whom will the saints reign over?

Everyone will make the trip to the holy city once a year and take part in worshipping the Lord. Those who refuse will not receive rain for their crops (Zechariah 14: 17, 18)

The saints will rule with a rod of iron over the unregenerate men of the millenium. At the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ, Satan will be released on the earth again. He will find many eager to follow him.

This will prove to the priniciplalities that ONLY a man that has the nature of God within him will NOT be fooled by the Devil.

[DaveGerard]

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment (or authority to rule) was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Whom will the saints reign over?

Everyone will make the trip to the holy city once a year and take part in worshipping the Lord. Those who refuse will not receive rain for their crops (Zechariah 14: 17, 18)

The saints will rule with a rod of iron over the unregenerate men of the millenium. At the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ, Satan will be released on the earth again. He will find many eager to follow him.

This will prove to the priniciplalities that ONLY a man that has the nature of God within him will NOT be fooled by the Devil.

This doesn't document that people will be born in the Millenium. Also, what about everyone dying during the tribulation. I never said they would.

[episkopos]

This doesn't document that people will be born in the Millenium. Also, what about everyone dying during the tribulation. I never said they would.

Then who is living during the M? Whom do the saints rule over with a rod of iron?

[episkopos]

"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed. Is 65:20

This speaks of a future where the peace of God will reign. This is speaking of the millenium.

[Raybob]

"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed. Is 65:20

This speaks of a future where the peace of God will reign. This is speaking of the millenium.

If it spoke of the millenium, then why does it say it's a description of the new earth???

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(Isa 65:17)

[DaveGerard]

Then who is living during the M? Whom do the saints rule over with a rod of iron?

In the millenium, we do not live as we do in flesh. We are all in the spiritual body. Those who are ruled over are the dead of Rev 20:5 who know not Christ. Though in a spiritual body, they yet have a mortal soul. They are as the rich man in hell, but in the same place as Lazarus who was in heaven.


Luk 20:34 - And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luk 20:35 - But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luk 20:36 - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luk 20:37 - Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luk 20:38 - For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

[Raybob]

In the millenium, we do not live as we do in flesh. We are all in the spiritual body. Those who are ruled over are the dead of Rev 20:5 who know not Christ. Though in a spiritual body, they yet have a mortal soul. They are as the rich man in hell, but in the same place as Lazarus who was in heaven.


Luk 20:34 - And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luk 20:35 - But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luk 20:36 - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luk 20:37 - Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luk 20:38 - For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

That passage deals with the resurrection at the last day, not the millennium unless you believe the wicked are also resurrected prior to the millennium.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(Joh 11:24)
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(Joh 12:48)

[episkopos]

Living and eternal life are not the same thing.

See Ez. 37:1-14 regarding the whole house of Israel being dried bones, but the breathe of life was brought into them and they did live. The house of Israel was not dead physically. They were dead spiritually.

See Luke 16:19-31 regarding Lazarus and the rich man. Was the rich man alive when he was talking to Abraham and asking him to send back Lazarus to tell his family the truth about heaven? The rich man existed and could talk, but was dead in spirit. Christ was giving us a snapshot of what it is like in the hereafter. So shall it be for the dead of Rev 20:5.

The dead of Rev. 20:5 are spiritually dead. They aren't laying in the ground somewhere waiting to be judged. They simply don't have Christ and have not been given eternal life. They need to go through the Millenium and be judged before they can receive eternal life. They are judged according to their works. Not works of the flesh, but works in the Millenium. They exist, but are dead just as the rich man.

This cannot be! The people of the earth that the saints rule over will rebel against the Lamb and His saints when Satan is let back out for a short while! These will all perish!

[DaveGerard]

That passage deals with the resurrection at the last day, not the millennium unless you believe the wicked are also resurrected prior to the millennium.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
(Joh 11:24)
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(Joh 12:48)

All are changed at the 2nd advent. Not all resurrect.