In The Absence Of The Covenant, What Is There?

[Firstfruits]

With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

[quiet dove]

With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

But the ten commandments haven't been taken away. Sin is still sin, right. What is wrong in God's eyes has not changed, or gone away.

Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the Law. The Law is basically an expansion of the ten commandments, spelling out the details. It is not so much that God took the Law away, what He did do was provide a Better way to approach Him when we broke it. Men no longer approach through the sacrificial system. We now approach through Christ our Mediator who was/is the provision the Law required for our sins. Plus we now have the promise of the indwelling Spirit, so we are no longer dependent upon our flesh, which as we all know, is simply not dependable.

The Law still exist in that sin is still sin, and the Law still calls sin … sin. But what has changed is that through the Redeemer we are no longer dependent upon the flesh. So , while sin is still sin, we no longer have the Law condemning us if we are in Christ Jesus, so thus we are no longer “under the Law”.

[Firstfruits]

But the ten commandments haven't been taken away. Sin is still sin, right. What is wrong in God's eyes has not changed, or gone away.

Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the Law. The Law is basically an expansion of the ten commandments, spelling out the details. It is not so much that God took the Law away, what He did do was provide a Better way to approach Him when we broke it. Men no longer approach through the sacrificial system. We now approach through Christ our Mediator who was/is the provision the Law required for our sins. Plus we now have the promise of the indwelling Spirit, so we are no longer dependent upon our flesh, which as we all know, is simply not dependable.

The Law still exist in that sin is still sin, and the Law still calls sin … sin. But what has changed is that through the Redeemer we are no longer dependent upon the flesh. So , while sin is still sin, we no longer have the Law condemning us if we are in Christ Jesus, so thus we are no longer “under the Law”.

God said that he has taken it away.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

If it has not been taken away by God then what has he changed with the ten commandments?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

What covenant has been done away with by God other than that given at Mount Sinai?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

What law is it that we are not under when it comes to grace?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Firstfruits

[Nihil Obstat]

Keep reading along in Hebrews: "He takes away the first in order to establish the second" (10:9).

[Firstfruits]

Keep reading along in Hebrews: "He takes away the first in order to establish the second" (10:9).

Knowing then that the covenant that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai is what God said he has taken away, if the ten commandments/the first covenant, have not been taken away then has the second covenant been established?

Are we not under grace?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Other than the covenant in the following scripture, is there another covenant given to Israel at Mount Sinai?

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Unless there is another that was given at Mount Sinai then what has God taken away?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

[Amos_with_goats]

I recall a conversation with a man who was tempted to leave his wife.

He was trying to make the same points... wanting very much to believe what you are reaching for here.

Galatians 6:7

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

With the first covenant/the ten commandments, being taken away by God, what do we have?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The following teaches that we are now under grace and cannot have both.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Can we truly depend on Gods grace without the ten commandments/the covenant taken away by God?

God bless you!

Firstfruit

[Firstfruits]

I recall a conversation with a man who was tempted to leave his wife.

He was trying to make the same points... wanting very much to believe what you are reaching for here.

Galatians 6:7

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

With the scriptures given throughout this thread, what do you believe I am reaching for?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Do we not trust God enough to depend soley on his grace? If God required the covenant to remain and for us to keep it, why then did he make it old and give us a new one?

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Firstfruits

[quiet dove]

Other than the covenant in the following scripture, is there another covenant given to Israel at Mount Sinai?

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Unless there is another that was given at Mount Sinai then what has God taken away?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

The means of approaching, worshiping, and serving God were through the temple and sacrificial system, the means for all these is now through Christ. Atonement, for sin was provided for with the sacrifice of animals, which of course now is provided for by the atoning blood of Christ.
*The atonement part is a little more complicated but that is the gist in terms of the discussion here.

God did not say He would remove the Law in terms of sin some how no longer being sin, He said He would write the Law on their hearts. Since all those in Christ Jesus are indwelt with the Spirit, they have the Law written on their heart. So now instead of us being under the Law, the Law is in us.

Does that help any? I mean I know it is tricky. The first thing we know for a fact that sin is still sin. So to say that sin went away we know is not true, and what we have in the ten commandments are things that are contrary to God's will and thus sin. And sin is still sin. But in terms of our sin, all is through Christ and no longer through the Mosaic Covenant.

Don't let it get to ya. Just keep praying and studying on it and God will turn on the light with it. That's how it works for all things we seek to understand of the things of God. As a believer you are indwelt with the Spirit and have God's Law written on your heart, so your good to go, so to speak.

While we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we know sin is still sin.

[Firstfruits]

The means of approaching, worshiping, and serving God were through the temple and sacrificial system, the means for all these is now through Christ. Atonement, for sin was provided for with the sacrifice of animals, which of course now is provided for by the atoning blood of Christ.
*The atonement part is a little more complicated but that is the gist in terms of the discussion here.

God did not say He would remove the Law in terms of sin some how no longer being sin, He said He would write the Law on their hearts. Since all those in Christ Jesus are indwelt with the Spirit, they have the Law written on their heart. So now instead of us being under the Law, the Law is in us.

Does that help any? I mean I know it is tricky. The first thing we know for a fact that sin is still sin. So to say that sin went away we know is not true, and what we have in the ten commandments are things that are contrary to God's will and thus sin. And sin is still sin.

Don't let it get to ya. Just keep praying and studying on it and God will turn on the light with it. That's how it works for all things we seek to understand of the things of God. As a believer you are indwelt with the Spirit and have God's Law written on your heart, so your good to go, so to speak.

While we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we know sin is still sin.

Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, so for God to remove what he gave at Mount Sinai should not affect anything concerning sin.

The covenant given at Mount Sinai is the ten commandments.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

That is what he said he has made old.

Why would God make old that which he has put in us? Is that not a contradiction? The old was taken away that the new could be established.

Firstfruits

[quiet dove]

Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, so for God to remove what he gave at Mount Sinai should not affect anything concerning sin.

Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We know also from Romans, and so much in the OT that men knew God, even when we do not have a lot of details it is enough that we know men knew God. Like Noah. It was possible for men to be aware that God existed.

We are also told this in Romans
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The covenant given at Mount Sinai is the ten commandments.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

That is what he said he has made old.

Why would God make old that which he has put in us? Is that not a contradiction? The old was taken away that the new could be established.

Firstfruits

No, because what was once of the mortal physical realm, is now perfected through Christ Jesus in the spiritual realm.
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Mosaic Law-Covenant, was a new Covenant and an agreement with Israel in terms of their being separated out unto God as a witness to the Gentile nations. While there were previous Covenants between God and men, this particular Covenant was between the Israelites and God

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. (Exo 19:1)

God promised this New Covenant way back when.
Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The point of both Covenants is the means of having relationship God provides for His creatures. The latter infinitely better than the former.

[Firstfruits]

Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We know also from Romans, and so much in the OT that men knew God, even when we do not have a lot of details it is enough that we know men knew God. Like Noah. It was possible for men to be aware that God existed.

We are also told this in Romans
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
No, because what was once of the mortal physical realm, is now perfected through Christ Jesus in the spiritual realm.
Sin was still sin before the ten commandments, but this is what was said regarding that time in mens history.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Mosaic Law-Covenant, was a new Covenant and an agreement with Israel in terms of their being separated out unto God as a witness to the Gentile nations. While there were previous Covenants between God and men, this particular Covenant was between the Israelites and God

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. (Exo 19:1)

God promised this New Covenant way back when.
Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The point of both Covenants is the means of having relationship God provides for His creatures. The latter infinitely better than the former.

And the first had to be taken away before he could establish the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Firstfruits

[notuptome]

With whom did God make His covenant(s)?

For the cause of Christ
Roger