Once saved, always saved?

[TrustGzus]

I believe we are eternally secure. I have no desire to continue sinning. So it's not an excuse for me. I think that if one teaches grace truthfully and accurately, then some people will think that a person is saying you can do anything you want. And in a sense that is true. What sin can I commit that Jesus' death did not cover? Murder? What state was David in when he had Uriah murdered? Was David not saved at the time? David had a walk with the LORD when that happened. Was David lost for that year before he repented?

Paul said in Romans . . .

Romans 3:5–8 (NIV)

5*But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6*Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7*Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8*Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

Note that Paul states that people were claiming that Paul was teaching "let us do evil that good may result". I don't think they made it up out of thin air. I think they were misinterpreting Paul. Paul's statements on grace in Romans and Galatians are so strong that a people in his day were misinterpreting his teaching. In the same way, people misinterpret eternal security -- the result of the the extreme graciousness of God -- to imply that people can do whatever they want.

But eternal security doesn't cause us to want to sin. Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives,

[TrustGzus]

Maybe what would be more productive would be for each side to simply list the scripture they do not agree with.

Would anyone here really say that they don't agree with certain parts of Scripture?

[Treasured]

What sin can I commit that Jesus' death did not cover?

Oh AMEN!...that's it right there...

Jesus' blood covers it ALL...every last sin...bless His beautiful Name!!

Thanks TrustGzus...you rock dude!

[Amos_with_goats]

Would anyone here really say that they don't agree with certain parts of Scripture?

Probably not, but in speaking 'against' the 'other side' it sometimes appears that way.

That we would hold to any view to the exclusion of parts of the Word ought to tell us that there is a flaw in our understanding.

The Lord desires that we would be blessed to humble ourselves and not pretend we hold all Truth within ourselves...

... my encouragement to any would be that they (we all) might receive ALL that the Lord would show us from His Word, by His Spirit... no matter if it contradicts our feable, flawed, temporal brains to do so.

I speak this as a blessing to those who read.. as having been given authority to bless... may the Lord do His will as He allows us to be not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

[Ceegen]

The only thing that separates us from God is our sin. If we continue in sin, we are not "saved" from spiritual death. If we die (in the flesh) in Jesus, then we are once and for all saved. The flesh is sinful in nature, being separated from God, so therefore once you die in the flesh you can no longer sin and you are then "always saved" but not before then. Some people REJECT Jesus and/or God on their death bed, as sad as it may be, but is evidence of not being saved.

ELSE how could the parable of the seeds, being explained, could there be seed that falls on shallow ground or rocky ground and then die? (Matthew 13).

[Helovesme]

Grace does not prevent a person from sinning, though the spirit is willing the flesh is still weak and you are still capable of sinning and in fact your flesh still wants to sin, there is a two letter word "if' that makes many of the promises that you rely upon for your continued salvation to be conditional, take for example.. 1John 1;7 If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we know that we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
so the condition placed upon us of being able to claim that the blood of Jesus will continue cleanse us from sin , is that you must walk in the Light, now OSAS doctrine says that there is nothing required of you after your intial salvation, this and many other scriptures like it, say otherwise.

[gringo300]

I'm about to have to go do some Bible research. I've found myself having to do this a lot lately...

[Michael Snow]

The best Bibllical study of this topic that I have read is by the noted NT scholar, I. Howard Marshall, Kept By The Power of God. He believes the Biblical texts support Wesley's position. I think it is still out of print but if you cannot find it used online, you should be able to get through a library or inter-library loan.

Discussions of this topic always make [imho] a wrong assumption. They assume that there are only two positions when there are really three. The modern 'osas' position is different than the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Here is my best shot at it:

seeking the lost.
.
...Some of us seem oblivious to the fact that there is a crisis.
One pet theology that re-enforces the lack of urgency
stems from good intentions. But while holding onto some
truths found in the New Testament, it fails to hold onto other
essentials. The holy conjunction is lost. And, thus, it distorts
an historic doctrine—the perseverance of the saints.
Its good intention lies in giving assurance to those who
struggle with their sense of being saved. Today, many seasoned
Christians will tell those who make a profession of
faith (whether by a prayer or by going forward at a church
or crusade) that they have eternal security. A popular slogan
rings out: “Once saved, always saved.”
And other Christians will assure those who have been
baptized and confirmed that they are heaven bound no matter
what may follow. Though many of these converts might
never live by faith, this assurance will again be affirmed at
their funerals.
But a new idea enters here. By leaving out New
Testament essentials, these teachings depart from the historic
Christian faith. This new idea leaves behind the holy
conjunction; it fails to hold essentials together. Faith and
obedience are sundered; forgiveness and repentance divided.
While some differences arise among great saints of the
past, like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley, they
all agreed that we are saved by faith alone through God’s
unmerited grace. On this point, Wesley said of Calvin, “I do
not differ from him an hair’s breadth.”4
So, too, the seasoned Christians mentioned above affirm
this. But where is the difference?
Martin Luther observed that “the world and the masses
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are and always will be unchristian, although they are all baptized
and nominally Christians. Christians, however, are few
and far between . . .”5
Luther pointed to “the divine promise which says: ‘He
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved’ [Mark 16:16].”6
(Note the holy conjunction.) But he also warned, “Unless
faith is present or comes to life in baptism, the ceremony is
of no avail; indeed it is a stumbling-block not only at the
moment we receive baptism but for all our life thereafter.”7
John Calvin affirmed, “Only if we walk in the beauty of
God’s law do we become sure of our adoption as children of
the Father.”8 (What a contrast that is with the assurances
given by those who march under another banner.)
Furthermore, he wrote:
The apostle denies that anyone actually knows
Christ who has not learned to put off the old man,
corrupt with deceitful lusts, and to put on Christ.
External knowledge of Christ is found to be
only a false and dangerous make-believe, however
eloquently and freely lip servants may talk about
the gospel.
The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but
of life.9
The key point here is succinctly summed up by J. I.
Packer: “Scripture holds out no hope of salvation for any
who, whatever their profession of faith, do not seek to turn
from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:8).”10
We need to read and hear Jesus’ parable of the sower.
(Christians ought to read and know God’s word.) Here,
Jesus speaks of the different types of soil upon which the
seed of the gospel falls. The seed falls on the footpath, on
shallow, rocky soil, on ground infested with thorns, and on
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Love, Prayer and Forgiveness
good ground (Mat. 13). The hard footpath will not even
grow a plant, but on the shallow, stony soil, the plants spring
up immediately, but because of the shallowness, they have
no deep root and wither away in the sun.
Jesus tells us, “He who received the seed on the stony
places, this is he who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy, [he may readily run forward at an altar
call] yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a
while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of
the word, immediately he stumbles “ (Mat. 13:20-21).
About the ground with thorns, Jesus says, “He who
received the seed among the thorns is he who hears the
word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of
riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (Mat
13:22). The thorns choke out life. (We remember what Jesus
said about dead branches on the vine: they are cut off and
gathered to be burned.)
Here, confusion rushes in when those in this modern,
once-saved-always-saved camp assure these sad cases of
people that they have eternal security. (Just as the evangelical
churches of Joy and Mary did for them.)
Right here lies the critical point of difference between
the historic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and
this modern notion, which reigns under the banner of “once
saved, always saved.” Both will agree that God’s elect cannot
be lost; but those with this new notion will assure someone,
anyone, who makes an initial profession of faith that
they have eternal security. And their positive assessment
regarding the salvation of these hearers will never change,
not even when the roots shrivel and the thorns choke the life
out. The initial response (profession) rather than the life of
endurance (perseverance) stands as their criteria. (As a
result, they often fail in exhortation, and they often remain
silent, except to assure Christians like Joy and Mary that
they are heaven bound.)
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Love, Prayer and Forgiveness
But Jesus said, “He who endures to the end will be
saved” (Mat. 10:22).
Calvin, one unflinching champion of the perseverance of
the saints, clearly taught this. Expositing this parable of the
sower, he speaks of the “temporary faith” of the one who
receives the word with joy:
They lack a living feeling (affectus) to confirm
them in steadfastness. . . . For unless the Word
penetrates the whole heart and puts down deep
roots there will be no steady flow of moisture to
make faith persevere. . . . let us realize that nothing
is done until faith has gained a firm strength. . . .
these are called ‘temporary’, not only because they
fall away in temptation after being professed disciples
of Christ for a time, but also because they
themselves think that they have a true faith. . . . But
we must know that they are not truly born again of
incorruptible seed, which does not fade away, as
Peter says (1 Pet. 1.4).11
As F. F. Bruce has pointed out, “The perseverance of the
saints is a biblical doctrine, but it is not a doctrine designed
to lull the indifferent into a sense of false security; it means
that perseverance is an essential token of sanctity.”12
That means that if you do not have the essential evidence,
the perseverance, then you do not have the salvation
either.

[AndyBern]

I believe if you are truly saved, you won't lose your salvation. But not all who say they are saved, or appear to have been saved, are saved. Salvation is something God does.

If someone asks me on what I base the fact of my salvation, i.e. what happen to me to put me in a saved state, I cannot reply with something that I did, i.e. I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins, I repented, and I asked Him to forgive me my sins and save me, even though that is true. Nothing I did saved me and I cannot trust in faith or prayer or going forward at the altar call or whatever to save me. The only that saved me is God responding to my request, and graciously granting me new life, causing me to be born anew. My salvation is entirely something He has done (John 3:3-7).

But because true salvation is something that He has done, I know I cannot lose my salvation, because it is not really my salvation but God's salvation.

If I could lose salvation, then I never really had it to begin with, because salvation refers to being saved from a future event (the last judgment and an eternity spent in hell). The following scriptures would then not be true because they use the perfect tense to indicate that I have salvation now:

John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:8: For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;

If salvation can be lost, then these verses at the most should say "will have everlasting life", "will pass out of death into life", or "you will be saved", assuming you persevere in the faith or don't do anything else that would cause you to lose it.

I believe those who are truly saved will not truly fall away. Those who do fall away permanently were not saved to begin with.

I have a webpage that shows other arguments for salvation being secure. It's at http://dtjsoft.com/disp/assurance.

[Quickened]

In the most simple terms we didn't do anything to merit salvation to begin with. Nor are we intended to maintain it.

While we are admonished to actively flee sin, it has no bearing on our salvation. We are saved because of Christ's work on the cross. The work done there wasn't lacking or incomplete in any way shape or form. We need to focus on the sacrifice there. Who was it for? What conditions needed to be met? Where they met with 100% satisfaction? What does that mean for us as a believer in Christ?

Christ met the criteria living a perfect and sinless life. Because of this we have the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross for believers.

If anyone has confusion they should really read Galatians. It totally refutes the idea that we do anything to merit or keep our salvation. Consider these verses

Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Ask yourself "Why do they (Jews) know that a person is not justified by works of the law?" What does the law require and how did Christ fulfill that?
We are justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law because as Paul plainly states here through works no one will be justified.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Meaning that if our own righteousness (of which apart of Christ we have none) merited or obtained salvation that Christ didn't need to die as it was already obtainable. Paul goes on.....

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Ask yourself the question that Paul poses in verse 2. How did you receive the Spirit to begin with? Why would Paul even ask this? Well the church in Galatia was experiencing the same problem then as our church sees today. After Paul left after establishing the church there men called Judaizers came on the scene undoing what Paul was teaching. Paul obviously taught Christ crucified. These men came after him essentially saying "Ok that's well and good but you still need to observe these signs and laws".

Read again from verse one onward. See Paul's passion when he calls them foolish. The Greek there is a derivative of unintelligent. Think about that. Moving along to verse 3. Since you didn't start this work to begin with are you then keeping/maintaining this by your own works?

One of the most powerful things that Paul is about to go on to say (in my opinion) is in verse 6.

Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Paul goes all the way back to Genesis and highlights something of vast importance. Faith was a criteria then. Up until today it had nothing to do with us. To think so totally misunderstands the gospel. We were (past tense) in a condition in which we could do nothing to merit our own salvation. We needed a solution. It was Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us according to the will of God. (Gal 1:3)

I'm not going to highlight all of the letter at this time but it's almost impossible to read Galatians and then still say that we have to keep our salvation. Therefore if we see a verse that makes us think otherwise we need to make sure we are utilizing proper exegesis on that verse as the bible doesn't contradict itself.

Having said that we are saved by Christ's work on the cross and we are kept the same. Should a man doubt this or struggle with this concept he is no less saved then I am. Unfortunately he will lack assurance which a believer can have. We are saved solely on Christ and not based on our own works nor our own theological understanding of how the process works and why.

[shepherdsword]

OSAS is a nice concept. I understand the numerous scriptures that seem to support it. I was taught the scriptures as a child(in Memphis Boys Town)by an elderly lady I loved dearly. She was of the OSAS position. I first "accepted" Christ when I was 10 years old. I was then brought up in a baptist church where OSAS was the position. My family was catholic but after my mom abandoned my father,siblings and I was sent to that boys home. I couldn't get baptized as a catholic because ny father had remarried and I was born out of wedlock. However,my grandfather was later able to procure a baptism for me by paying some kind of endowment or something but anyway,I was basically raised a baptist. My conversion at age 10 didn't really stick but I later turned to the Lord in earnest in Ft. Lauderdale Fl when I heard some kids my age(19) preaching the word on the beach. I got into the word and devoured it. I memorized whole books and just couldn't get enough. However,I had a hard time seeing eternal security in the words that Jesus spoke in the gospels. It troubled me and I was relieved when I got to Romans. It seemed to back what I was taught as a child. As time went on I engaged in numerous debates with the Pastor who took me into his home to disciple me. I was a tough nut to crack because by age 21 I had most of the NT memorized. I could run circles around most people with the word. Although this did lead to a form of arrogance(as I am sure the fault finders still see and I admit,God is breaking me,don't worry) my pastor really respected my hunger and willingness to serve in the ministry in any way. He was an excellent scholar himself and his knowledge of the greek tenses for important verbs such as "believing" were a prick in my heart. One day as I was studying the Holy Spirit just opened my eyes. I was able to take all of the verses on both sides of the argument and reconcile them with each other. I abandoned my OSAS position. The continuous present tense of " believe" such as in John 3:16 demand that faith be a continual aspect on our part. I suggest reading Robert Shank's "Life in the Son" and "Elect in the Son" for an excellent expose on how the OSAS verses have been taken out of context and improperly interpreted. I think a major hurdle for me in accepting NOSAS was the "salvation by works" illusion. In my mind at the time I was of the opinion that if there was anything you could to to maintain a secure position then it meant that I was working for salvation. I am now of the mind that if we have to do nothing to participate in eternal life then why isn't everyone saved? Did we just win the cosmic lottery and get fortunate enough for God to choose us?
If my free will has nothing to do with participating in what Christ has done then why isn't everyone as holy as the apostles and Paul? The fact is there IS some effort on our part. There is no "greasy grace" that will let me be conformed to the image of Christ. I must take up my cross,as Jesus commanded. I must die to myself,as Jesus commanded. I must agonize to enter into the straight gate,as Jesus commanded. Jesus proclaimed that there would be few who would find the path to true life.I think it is because we,as humans,do not want to suffer,for anything. We love to hear a gospel that tells us that all of the suffering has been accomplished and that there is nothing left to do on our part except agree that is true. Such a message contradicts numerous passages that tell us to strive,to continue and to hope to the end.

[Diggindeeper]

I am in agreement with shepherdsword, above. Having studied scriptures avidly over many years, I too had to abandon the OSAS position. I do understand the position since I was taught that way as a child and grew up under that teaching. But as I studied more and more, I've had to conclude there are just far too many 'IFs'' in relation to our salvation.

Salvation is not a one-time-come-to-repentance deal and then its 'done'. Paul calls it a 'race' we run and we run it with fear and trembling. I can see how people can earnestly believe OSAS, because truly if we are a new creature, then the former lusts would not draw us away. Our desires change, our outlook changes, our way of seeing ourselves change.

But then, we must consider the total of scriptures, like this:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This says they CAN fall away, even though they been enlightened and they have known (tasted) the power of the Holy Ghost and they have known (tasted) the good word of God.

Its not that we can just 'lose' our salvation. Its that one CAN walk away and back into the lusts of sin. In other words, we quit running the race!

It would pay us all to take note of the 'IFs" in the Bible, and conditions, especially in the New Testament. Here are a few examples:

Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

[jandl]

I am in agreement with shepherdsword, above. Having studied scriptures avidly over many years, I too had to abandon the OSAS position. I do understand the position since I was taught that way as a child and grew up under that teaching. But as I studied more and more, I've had to conclude there are just far too many 'IFs'' in relation to our salvation.

Salvation is not a one-time-come-to-repentance deal and then its 'done'.

Why not? Did you have to come out of your mothers womb more than once? Being saved is likened to birth: "born again"- John 3. Salvation is being BORN AGAIN, being MADE alive by the blood of Christ, so yes, it IS a one-time come to CHRIST deal. Then, in your NEW LIFE, you "work out your salvation." You "work OUT" what Christ SEALED and planted INSIDE. To "work out" simply means to keep your life clean and let people know that you associate yourself with Christ, and THAT is sometimes real "WORK." It isn't easy sometimes.

Paul calls it a 'race' we run and we run it with fear and trembling.

Correction. He calls the CHRISTIAN LIFE a race, NOT salvation. Did you have to RUN out of your mother's womb? Was it a race being born? I'm sure your mom was racing to get rid of the pain, but YOU weren't racing, you were just getting BORN, and IT was a one-time thing.

But then, we must consider the total of scriptures, like this:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This says they CAN fall away, even though they been enlightened and they have known (tasted) the power of the Holy Ghost and they have known (tasted) the good word of God.

Ah yes, you guys always have to resort to Hebrews, James, Matthew or Acts to try and disprove eternal security for a born-again Christian in the church age today. Nothing new. First of all, who are the "they" you keep talking about? Hmmm? Hebrews is written to, get this,... Hebrews! Jews. The reader is a Hebrew who is saved who is in danger of losing salvation if he doesn't "endure to the end." Only by doing THIS can he become a "partaker of Christ," even though he is already a partaker of the Holy Ghost." He has tasted the powers of a world to come that is characterized by apostolic signs and wonders. He is in danger of drawing back into perdition as Jews who got into the promised land and apostasized after they got there. He can lose salvation and be unable to get it back. When he does, a Burning awaits him at the second advent for he will be judged as one of God's people. The reason a Jew can lose his salvation in the tribulation is because he is not PART of Christ's BODY, because it is GONE up to heaven for a MARRIAGE. Whenever a passage doesn't directly agree with Pauline doctrine, you can safely apply it to another period in time or to another group of people who are NOT part of the body of Christ.

It would pay us all to take note of the 'IFs" in the Bible, and conditions, especially in the New Testament. Here are a few examples:

Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Trodden under foot of men has NOTHING to do with hellfire punishment but rather your Christian life and testimony STINKING and powerless in the eyes of the world because you haven't stayed on fire for God that the world just dismisses you and you become a laughing stock because your testimony is weak and you don't have that POWER of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?

"REWARD" has nothing to do with HEAVEN or Hell but rather a gaining or losing of actual rewards because of your service and heart for the Lord IN your Christian life.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

The verse is talking of you reproducing after your kind: soulwinning is the subject. The reason so many Christians won't have ANY converts when they got to heaven is because they didn't RESIDE in Christ. Christ resides in you, and you reside in Christ. THAT is permanent, when you are talking of Christ's body, but when you talk of his reproach and cross, that's a different thing. You need to abide at the foot of the cross so that you can win people to Christ and reproduce.

[Quickened]

I am in agreement with shepherdsword, above. Having studied scriptures avidly over many years, I too had to abandon the OSAS position. I do understand the position since I was taught that way as a child and grew up under that teaching. But as I studied more and more, I've had to conclude there are just far too many 'IFs'' in relation to our salvation.

Salvation is not a one-time-come-to-repentance deal and then its 'done'. Paul calls it a 'race' we run and we run it with fear and trembling. I can see how people can earnestly believe OSAS, because truly if we are a new creature, then the former lusts would not draw us away. Our desires change, our outlook changes, our way of seeing ourselves change.

But then, we must consider the total of scriptures, like this:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This says they CAN fall away, even though they been enlightened and they have known (tasted) the power of the Holy Ghost and they have known (tasted) the good word of God.

Its not that we can just 'lose' our salvation. Its that one CAN walk away and back into the lusts of sin. In other words, we quit running the race!

It would pay us all to take note of the 'IFs" in the Bible, and conditions, especially in the New Testament. Here are a few examples:

Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

I can't believe this thread didn't balloon to over 8 million pages! That's quite nice indeed.

Are these the main verses that keep you from believing OSAS? I used to be NOSAS but as I studied further I can't help but see the gift of grace is something that has nothing to do with us. Anyways I would like to learn more from what you get out of scripture I would be curious about hearing you talk more about this position if you are willing.

Going forward to help me understand I would like to ask you the following question:

1) Do you see Grace as a gift from God? Or is it something we merit by doing something?

Don't worry it's not a trap question or anything. I just don't want to put words in your mouth and asking that will help me along!

[AndyBern]

I first "accepted" Christ when I was 10 years old. ... My conversion at age 10 didn't really stick...

Again, true salvation is something God does, not we do. Just because you accepted Christ does not mean you were saved. ("Accepting" Jesus is such a vague phrase anyway - it can mean all kinds of things.) There were many people who believed in Jesus in the gospels (and were called disciples), and yet did not have saving faith and stopped following Him.

If God has saved you, then He will keep you. There will also be evidences of salvation in your life. J.C. Ryle listed some of those evidences in his writing Are You Born Again?. Another evidence is that you will persevere in the faith.