Once saved, always saved?

[Gadgeteer]

And eternal life is to know the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ.

Amen!!! John17:3!!!

Eternal life is a type of life, it is the life of God. What we have handled, what we have seen, the word of life, we share with you that your fellowship might be with us, and our fellowship is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.

VERY EXCELLENT!!! 1Jn1:1-3!!!

THAT is eternal life, to be in communion with God. We may remove ourselves from this communion, or passively let the world do so. Thus the necessity for abiding.

I know it wasn't directed at me... This is my understanding of it. Unless we are in communion with him, we are not walking in this eternal life.

Tried to rep you on this, "you must pass around reps before yah yah..."

Very excellent post!

[Gadgeteer]

It is my understanding that the prodigal son represented the publicans and sinners who were coming to Jesus and receiving His Word. They were not saved, then lost, then saved again. They were children of Abraham according to the flesh, who were being saved by hearing Jesus' Word and believing on Him.

Hi, "Glad". We can differ on this; I see it as several parables saying the same thing --- lost sheep, lost coin, lost son. Of course, the son was the only one capable of repenting and returning himself. But it reads to me as though he was OF his father's house, left, and returned; lost/found, alive/dead/alive-again. It's okay if we don't agree on this.

Regarding the sonship and adoption of believers, I will agree that I don't think God is quick to cast His adopted children away.

Jesus said those God gives Him He will never lose; but if "given" means "believing" (in Jn17:6 those who are given to Jesus first belonged to God --- they believed and loved the Father, like Lydia in Acts16:14), then ceasing to believe means ceasing to be given.

He's not sitting up there ready to kick us out of the kingdom every time we stumble. God is merciful, gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive. If we stumble God will convict, and if we do not immedietely repent, He will discipline us as children. It should be hard for a true believer to kick against the pricks of God. If it is easy for us to sin, something is definitely wrong.

We mostly agree; but if we do not repent, but continue in sin, then we're no longer His sons...

Psalm 32: 3-4-When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

The danger is when we disregard, resist, or faint at His chastening hand. The danger is when a person trifles with Gods kindness, or turns the grace of God into a license to sin. God is not mocked. So there is a serenity that comes from knowing that God is longsuffering to us-ward, and it is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom and yet there is a holy reverance that knows that God will hold us all the more accountable who have received His Grace. Blessed assurance mixed with godly reverance, (holy fear) is what we need.

Okay, it's more than "mostly" agree; strongly???

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Your interpretation of these verses is one inconclusive interpretation. The other interpretations are, the wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine (2 Peter 2:20-22), or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored.

Hi, Dan. Can't be "sinning-Christian", 'cause it clearly says "thanatos death-and-Hell", and "uncovered (unforgiven!) sins". Neither can it be a "never-was-saved" person, 'cause he can't stray from truth he never HAD, nor can he be led BACK to where he never WAS.

For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16). Death can refer to spiritual or physical death. In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about his human life. The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died (Revelation 16:3). Every living soul in the sea is every whole being in its entirety that previously lived in the sea. Did every living creature in the sea experience spiritual death and end up in hell or physical death?

James uses "thanatos", which in the Lexicon is "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell"...

[Gadgeteer]

I don't have time to answer your avalanche of information...

Heh heh --- such is the problem with trying to answer every point. :-)

but will answer what I can. I'm trying to respond to other people as well. Alright, now just because you have known the way of righteousness does not mean that you have truly accepted the way of righteousness, which results in continuing in the way of righteousness and not turning away from it.

"Epiginosko" is similar to "epignosis", which is most often an experiential knowledge; "saved" in most instances. And "epistrepho" is a true spiritual turning.

They are worse off now because they have rejected the way of righteousness with a fuller knowledge of it. They are more accountable. That is a worse state than ignorance. This passage never said they were "saved."

We disagree on this. They were "truly escaped", and through the true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus.

How do you reconcile losing your salvation with Romans 8:30?

We hafta read Rm8:30 in contextl

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It begins with "Those WHO LOVE God" --- and these are predestined by their love/belief to be Christlike. Romans8:30 does not exert an exclusive call; that is, "only the FEW are called" --- Matt22:2-14 among others clearly conveys all are called.

Back to Deut30:11-20, and Rm10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31, God makes sure that everyone has "the word of faith" in their hearts and mouths; each can confess and believe and be saved, or can disobey and perish.

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which results from rejecting Christ deliberately.

Right; he who walks in sin (backslidden!) is by definition disbelieving in Christ.

Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. We don't walk along our daily life and suddenly fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The author of Hebrews is addressing a large number of Hebrews, which in any large group of professing believers, it's not hard to find unbelievers mixed in. The WE is addressing the entire group. Notice in verse 39, but WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. So the WE who willfully sinned after receiving the knowledge of the truth are not the WE who believed to the saving of the soul.

It's the same "we" --- verse 39 is an encouragement, not a dictate. What do you think about the same "positive encouragement" in Heb6:9? This in the face of clear talk about "falling from salvation" (parapipto is present participle).

We sin because we are still wearing our flesh which has a sin nature. Just because we have a new nature does not mean that we do not continue to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. I never said that becoming more like Christ in practice is a done deal at conversion. We put on Christ positionally when we receive His imputed righteousness, but we are to put on Christ in practice as well. I have no problem with Ephesians 4:22-24.

Do you accept that Eph4:23 is asserting "be regenerated"? If not, then what's the difference between "regeneration" and "being renewed in the spirit of your mind"?

So how many of us live sinless perfect lives? It's one thing to choose not to sin in given situations and yet another thing to reject Christ altogether and live in a willful habitual lifestyle of sin. So are you striving to keep yourself saved by works or are you striving to keep yourself up to par so you don't walk away from Christ altogether? Where are you going with this? Believe and meaure up or strive to keep believing so you don't walk away?

No; as you said, it is a WALK (continual!) in sin that endangers us. The opposite of that is "keep yourselves in His love, building yourselves in holy faith" (Jude20-21), and "take care about yourselves and your teaching, ABIDE in these, as you do you will save yourselves". 1Tim4:16.

They are not the same words.

They are all the same words except "defilements/corruptions".
Escaped (apopheugo) through the true-knowledge (epignosis) of the Lord (Kurios) and Savior (Soter) Jesus Christ.

Defilements/pollution in Greek is miðasma Strongs #3393 - that which defiles, defilement metaph., vices the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of mankind.

Corruption in Greek is fqora Strongs #5356 - corruption, destruction, perishing that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay. Corruption is much deeper than defilement on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep.

Let's focus on this, may we? Only a person who is NO LONGER a dog or a sheep, can escape vomit and mire, or even WANT to. Can you disagree with this?

So escaping outward pollution is not the same thing as escaping inward corruption. I have clearly made my case. Also notice that in 2 Peter 1:1, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. This was not said of those in 2 Peter 2:20.

Just because ch2 doesn't say "same-faith-as-us", it nevertheless says "escaped through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of LORD and SAVIOR Jesus". I don't think Peter meant "They escaped defilements through the Lord-to-someone-ELSE, and Savior-to-someone-ELSE Jesus"...

The word sanctified here appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians) means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation at all. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it several times to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved!) A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. It's likely that "he was sanctified" by Jesus' blood should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by denying the knowledge of the truth that he heard, and by repudiating the work of the person of Christ Himself. Such a person's apostasy is evidence that his identification with believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

It's sanctified by His blood; how many of the unsaved ever experience that?

I'll get to the rest of your questions later, when I have more time. See post 288 above for James 5:19,20.

I just answered your post 288. I'd like to make an observation --- but it will sound critical, so I'll apologize in advance, and ask you to accept it with the love and respect intended. (Hope you're not gritting your teeth!)

It seems that you are standing on a platform of "OSAS", and looking at how verses could be understood to support, rather than standing aside and considering the verses at their face value. I know we all can do that, and you may think I'm guilty of the same. But look at your understanding of James5:19-20 --- as I said, how can one fall from where he never WAS, and be led back to where he's never BEEN? It's the same thing with 2Pet2:20-22 --- on what basis is "escaped-defilements-through-the-true-knowledge-of-Lord-Savior-Jesus", not the same position as "escaped-corruption-through-the-true-knowledge-of-Lord-Savior-Jesus"?

Does this seem like fair consideration, or "standing on the platform"?

Forgive me if I offended you.

[Gadgeteer]

Does God save the unrighteous? If we truly repent from the heart THAT is deemed righteous by God. We are not saved by OUR deeds but by our attitude.

Right.

Then we must keep the same attitude while doing the deeds of Christ in His power.

Actually, salvation is much deeper than that; look at what Neanias said above --- it is FELLOWSHIP with Christ, an indwelt fellowship of love. Jn17:3, 1Jn1:1-3!

This is very difficult if not impossible unless we are brought to nothing. God is looking for a perfect faithfulness with a perfect humility. Anyone who fails can be humble. That seems to be the cornerstone of modern Christianity. We just stay in the nursery and we can never be expected to be responsible for ourselves.

It's all His power, and none of us; all His works (Jn6:29), and nothing of us. You're right that we DO His works (Jn6:25-28), but the works are not causal but consequential to His presence in our hearts. I'm betting we more agree on this than not...

Actually salvation is mirroring Christ. Good works are done in His presence. Ironically, those who claim to be saved are trying to improve themselves in their own strength. One can only be truly sanctified by abiding in the presence of Christ. Becoming like Jesus isn't homework...it is fieldwork!

It is as James said:

James4:7-10 "Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you. "

We KNOW we have eternal life because of the presence of Christ with us. You know you are in Paris when you see the Eiffel tower and everyone is speaking in French. When you see with the eyes of Jesus in THAT empowerment you see in the light...an actual light. Then you KNOW you are abiding in Him.

What I wish to teach most, is the intimacy between two PEOPLE --- Jesus, and the believer. There was a reason the veil tore, the moment He died; you and I are invited within the veil. Washed clean by His blood, we FELLOWSHIP with Almight God!

So many people view Jesus as a "role model", someone who showed us how we should BE; it's as if He's a STATUE that we observe and try to look like, and then put up on a SHELF for most of the week.

He is not a "role-model", He is an intimate friend. Indeed, salvation is very much like a MARRIAGE. It is a communion of love.

There is no such thing as saved faith. Being in the light shows that we are close to Jesus.

There is a "faith that saves", a "saving-faith". It is the faith that abides in Jesus. He said, "Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you."

We know Him when we abide in Him. He gives us a love for the brethren and a love for the truth.

I think we are not so much in disagreement, when the smoke clears.

:-)

Amen! Now we follow Him!

We follow Him, He indwells us, He loves us completely and makes us new from the inside out. But His position is responsive to our loving Him.

"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes and by holding fast to Him..."

Choose. It is the First and Greatest Commandment: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might."

[glad4mercy]

Hi, "Glad". We can differ on this; I see it as several parables saying the same thing --- lost sheep, lost coin, lost son. Of course, the son was the only one capable of repenting and returning himself. But it reads to me as though he was OF his father's house, left, and returned; lost/found, alive/dead/alive-again. It's okay if we don't agree on this.

It is definitely Ok to disagree. This may or may not be an unrelated question, but what do you think Paul meant by the bolded portions of the following verses...

Romans 7:7- 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Jesus said those God gives Him He will never lose; but if "given" means "believing" (in Jn17:6 those who are given to Jesus first belonged to God --- they believed and loved the Father, like Lydia in Acts16:14), then ceasing to believe means ceasing to be given.

I agree with this except for the fact that not every one who came to Jesus were faithful to God before they came to Jesus, but I do agree with you that those who are given to Jesus are the ones who are the faithful in Christ. If we abide in Him, we will never perish!

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any one snatch them from my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. ( John 10:27-29)

Who are Jesus' sheep?

1. Jesus' sheep hear His Voice.
2. Jesus knows them.
3. They follow Him.

How does Jesus shepherd them?

1. He gives them eternal life.
2. He holds them securely in His Hand.
3. They will never perish.
4. God gave them to Jesus.
5. They are in God's Hand, but Jesus and the Father are One.

What did Jesus say to the unbelievers?

John 10: 26-But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So those who do not believe are not Jesus' sheep. Believing would include hearing His voice and following Him.

We mostly agree; but if we do not repent, but continue in sin, then we're no longer His sons...

I agree, but most OSAS would say that a person who continues in sin and does not repent was never a son in the first place. I do not hold to this position personally, but it does show that OSAS does not necessarily imply antinomianism, though there are some who pervert the doctrines of Grace.

Okay, it's more than "mostly" agree; strongly???

Yes we agree on a lot. I also agree with Mailmandan on a lot of things. I think some people emphasize salvation from Gods point of view, as He, seeing everything from beginning to end from all eternity has predestinated us to be adopted, conformed to the image of His Son, and to receive an inheritance, and other people emphasize man's responsibility, that election is conditional, and we must receive Gods Grace and continue therein. Divine soveriegnty and human free will ( enabled by Grace) and responsibility are said to be two sides of the same coin, and I agree. I feel that we need to take care not to emphasize one aspect to the exclusion of the other. I don't think that you do, you seem to be very balanced.

The funny thing is that I've been accused by some Arminians, ( only a couple), of being Calvinistic, and I also hear Calvinists call people that hold the same views I do "Semi-Pelagians R. C Sproul calls people who hold Mailmandan's position semi Pelagian as well, because Dan believes, ( as we do), that God desires all men to be saved. So there are extreme views, and everything in between.

Blessings to all.

[mailmandan]

Yes! "Alive AGAIN"! Again, means again! Look at "came to his senses" (Lk15:17); that connects with 2Tim2:25-26. The son started out in his father's house, then he left, and then he returned.

The NASB reads: But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found. Not the same message. The ESV reads: It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found. He may have been dead to his father because he was not in his presence and alive to him again when he returned in his presence, but this passage does not say that we was saved, lost his salvation and was saved again. In regards to 2 Timothy 2:25,-26, Who is the one ensnared? Paul does not clearly distinguish the "victim" which leaves the interpretation open to either believers or unbelievers. There are people who sit in church who have not yet come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. They have been so completely misguided by the devil, believing doctrines of demons, that they are held captive to do the devil's will. But instead of throwing them out, Jesus beckons to them, calling them to repentance. We as Christians must do the same. There is at least an inference that these persons may be true believers who have become ensnared. If they are, the repentance and recovery may be expected, and the offenders may yet be restored back from the errors of their way. For the adulter in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, his sin resulted in physical death, but his spirit was saved.

Hebrews3:6 says we are Christ's house [b]if we hold fast firm until the end!

Notice that it says, we are Christ's house (present tense) if we hold fast until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become Christ's house (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Perseverance is the proof of initial salvation. Falling away is proof of false conversion. Failure to persevere is proof of hypocrisy and a lack of genuine conversion.

The guy in James5:19-20 did! Yes!

Saved once or saved from physical death.

What else can Eph4:23 mean? "BE renewed in the spirit of your mind" --- be regenerated! It's not "again and again", but rather "ABIDE IN regeneration"!

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say, I continued to be renewed "enough" so I abided in regeneration and didn't lose my salvation? There never seems to be any black and white answers for this question, only gray answers. Believe or does not believe is black and white (John 3:18) If it was not for God's power to save me and keep me saved, I would not be saved.

What do you think Romans11:23 means, by "grafted in again"?

What does the olive tree represent? Why were the Jews in the olive tree to begin with? They were the natural branches. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. I see Jews and Gentiles being addressed collectively here, but not saved individuals losing their salvation and getting it back again.

This post wasn't addressed to me, but I couldn't resist!

Of course not. You seem to take great pride in proving this doctrine, which if your motivation is to not take sin lightly and stress the importance of serving the Lord, as long as you don't cross the line into works salvation, then I'm fine with that. I have a good friend and a brother who believes the way you do, but we don't sit around arguing about it and I don't hear them say that most believers will lose their salvation. They believe that few genuine believers will actually completely turn their backs on the Lord after conversion, remain that way and lose their salvation. They don't believe that we lose it everytime we mess up and have to keep regaining it.

[episkopos]

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

We will find that most faulty theology stems from a bad reading of Paul. Peter recognized that in trying so hard to make his point, Paul was risking many misunderstandings. But we have been warned to be careful. We must look at the whole of scripture.


Does Jesus Christ say the same thing? Does James concur? Does Peter concur? Do we see the foreshadowing of this issue in the OT? All of these angles must be looked at if we are to have a sound doctrine. If we are unwise and only take what we think Paul is saying....then we are likely to err as Peter points out.

[mailmandan]

We are being saved by grace through faith. That is the process.

Ephesians 2:8 does not say we are "being saved" by grace through faith, it says we HAVE BEEN saved by grace through faith. Justification is not the process, sanctification is the process by which we are being saved from the power of sin. This clearly demonstrates to me that you don't fully trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the means of your salvation, but you also trust in your works that you accomplish to help save you.

The fruit of this is our change of character...like fruit that is borne on a tree. No fruit...no life/ No character...no inheritance.

Fruit of the tree, but not the tree itself. No fruit demonstrates no root which demonstrates no salvation from the start. So just how much character do we need to help Jesus save us?

It's a bit like Beauty and the beast. We have been given time to attain to love...otherwise we will reap what we have sown in the flesh. God is looking for something specific in us. (that is my unpopular emphasis) You are looking for something specific in God. (that is your emphasis..what can God do for ME) Who's in charge? You claim you have put God in charge of your salvation. But God serves no man. He is on His own side. We need to join Him where He is.

Another false accusation and it's getting old. Straw man argument.

Jesus did not tell the disciples...trust Me for salvation...and I say again, trust Me for salvation. You would think that such an important message (that contradicts the rest of scripture) would not go unheralded!!!!

Jesus repeatedly said, he who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned and has everlasting life etc.. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) Believing in Him for salvation is trusting in Him to save us. No contradiction here, just unbelief on your part. Where is your trust? It seems to be in what YOU accomplish and not solely in what Jesus accomplished to save you. That is not BELEVING in Him.

You are doing it again.....you need to pay closer attention if you don't want to be written off here. I don't claim to be eternally saved. I certainly don't trust in myself for anything. I have never said that I was saved by my efforts. This is a strawman argument on your part. Can you stick with what I actually am saying rather than your take on what I'm saying.

What do I need to pay closer attention to? I asked you a legitimate question. Written off? You don't claim to be eternally saved, yet John said those who BELIEVE can KNOW that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13) So you believe that you only have temporary life? You certainly are trusting in yourself to accomplish a certain level of performance to help save you. If you don't believe that you are saved by your efforts, then why do you keep pointing to your efforts and why did you say that our salvation is based on Christ's finished work of redemption AND our performance? Sounds like sugar coated double talk to me! There is no straw man on my part. I am going by what you have said in other posts. I asked you, what would be your answer if you were standing at the gates of heaven and Jesus asked you, why should I let you in? You mentioned nothing about Christ's finished work of redemption and focused on what you have accomplished. What am I supposed to believe? That you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation? I'm not hearing that in your words at all.

I am saying we must abide in Christ....you are saying God must save you!

You make it sound like abiding in Christ is some very difficult burden that most believers will not want to do and will end up losing their salvation. I never said that God must save me, but He is true to His word. Those who believe are not condemned and receive eternal life. (John 3:16,18; 5:24; 11:25,26) ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30)

I am being saved by the influence (grace) of His presence and my cleaving to this.

Your efforts, your performance. How well are you doing? Do you have an A on your obedience report card? or a B or a C? Will God grade you on a curve? How well must you perform?

God is looking for fruit from us...not a declaration that informs God that Jesus died for us.

God is looking for FAITH first. No faith, not fruit. He is looking for fruit after we have been saved through faith because we are saved, not to become saved. It's not the amount of fruit that is the basis of receiving salvation. It's our faith in Christ. If our faith is genuine, then there will be fruit, yet some will produce more fruit than others.

If Jesus says to someone..follow Me, and he obeys...what do you call that?

Obedience, which apart from saving faith will not happen. Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Notice that Jesus said, My sheep follow me. He did not say, some do and some don't. He also said, I know them. He did not say this to those in Matthew 7:22, who trusted in their so called many wonderful works to save them. Your whole motivation to follow Jesus seems to be, "must or else." I don't hear, want to, love to.
If Jesus says to someone follow Me, and he does not obey, what do you call that?

Salvation is not about doctrinal position...but proximity to Christ and the cross we are to bear for His service.

These are empty words without FAITH. (Ephesians 2:8)

Correct! The beginning of the salvation process is His regeneration of our hearts. The battle is for the mind.

So you agree that good works are the fruit and not the root of our salvation? When you say, salvation process, do you believe that Jesus initially saves us and then we have to do the rest? He doesn't completely save us? Do you see justification as a process?

The purpose of faith is not to trust in a salvation for all time...but to continue to trust in the Lord for all time.

We continue to trust in the Lord to save us for all time. We don't start out trusting Him and then later turn to trusting in supplements.

We are to concentrate on the means...God looks to the end. Ironically, one who trusts in the Lord, does not need any assurance other than knowing Him.

Do you hate the word, "assurance?" Do you have no assurance of your salvation or are your fingers crossed with no assurance?

He saves...not saved for all time!

Why not? What do we need to add to what He has accomplished to save us (His finished work of redemption) in order to help Him save us for all time? Back to your performance. What is the basis of our salvation when we are justified and what will be the basis of our salvation when we are glorified? Does it change?

We WERE justified...yes...past tense! This qualifies us for the race of faith and faithfulness.

So we are not really saved yet according to you, just simply placed on probation, thrown into a race and if our performance measures up, then we are saved? How well are you running this race of faithfulness? Have you been faithful "enough?" How much is enough?

You would have this whole life to be an introductionay time. But we are responsible for what we do. You are mistaking God's forgiveness and forbearance for an easy ride.

Another false accusation. Straw man again. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." The Christian life is not an easy ride, as we will face temptations, persecutions etc.. but Eternal life/Salvation is a free gift received through faith. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) This is not hard to understand, just not easy for you to accept!

Was the man who was forgiven the much he owed by the king...ever forgiven?...since the man then went and jailed another who owed him a little? The king then went back on his previous forgiveness and jailed that man. You would say that that man was never forgiven in the first place. This is how you muddy the water.

This is where you are diverting the purpose of God. The race IS like the Olympics.

The Olympics, yes. The Olympics of "works salvation" no. We are not competing to earn a free gift. This is where you divert from grace through faith to works salvation.

We are to run as to attain...not be smug in our place of divine assurance.

Smug? What do I have to be smug about? The Lord has given me His divine assurance that the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:14) We can KNOW that we have eternal life (1 John 5:13) Who gets ALL the credit? Jesus Christ. All I did was choose to accept the free gift through faith and I get no credit for my salvation. You apparently hate the word assurance because you have none. It's all a mystery to you because you are basing your salvation on the outcome of "your performance." You could never have assurance because you could never know if you did "enough." That's the delusion!

1Co_9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

So you interpret that to mean, run well enough or else no salvation? Paul runs the race in such a way to receive the prize, not the gift of eternal life. Paul KNEW that he had eternal life and gives no uncertainty about his salvation. 2 timothy 4:8 - Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. Was Paul smug?

[episkopos]

1.Redemption (initial salvation): Like being at an army recruitment office

Qualification for being justified: Just show up!!!



How does God recruit for His kingdom?

He grants us repentance and forgiveness. He gives of His grace. He covers us with His own righteousness as under His wings. He protects us and defends us...as one would a child. He teaches us to be clothed in righteousness while hiding our shame in His own tent. He admonishes us to keep our clothing clean and to not soil ourselves in the filth of this world.

Now this place is so comforting for many that they will refuse to grow or think it possible to grow beyond the Lord carrying them as a babe. The Father is indeed very loving and gentle...but He IS a Father. He wishes us to grow into the likeness of His own Son...and to this end we must become strong as warriors and be willing to suffer.

What can be done with those who refuse to grow? What if we don't want to leave the shelter of His tent? It is akin to to a grown man who has the character of a 2 year old. A 2 year old with the character and behaviour of a 2 year old is cute. A man in his twenties and thirties who acts like a 2 year old...is NOT cute.

So we are made to grow...or else we become handicapped to the point of non-functioning. And this through a faulty understanding of the purpose of God together with a willful stubbornness that becomes increasingly wicked in the eyes of God.

How long does this childhood period last? A few months? A few years? It depends on the immaturity level and zeal of the person. God will give us time....but He will not strive with men forever. We have an agenda to fulfill in this life...to become mature as Jesus modeled for us. Those who refuse to do so will be rejected as illegitimate.

See here that there is a time frame involved...

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

[episkopos]

Was Paul smug?


1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul feared he would not have attained a high enough standard to please the Lord.

Paul felt like the watchman in Ezekiel...

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.



1Co_9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

[mailmandan]

The talent IS a monetary value. I think you are not understanding what a parable is. The talent represents a great treasure we have been given..as in we have THIS treasure in earthen vessels. This treasure is His grace.

Actually, you don't understand the parable because you equate it to salvation by works. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's MONEY. (Matthew 25:18) The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability. This parable mentions nothing about treasure and grace. You just see what you want to see.

You only know because Jesus goes on to explain the parable. You would only be able to explain the parable of the talents if Jesus went on to explain it. But He doesn't...so you remain in the dark. Why don't you seem to understand this?

You still don't know even after Jesus explained the parable. I see just fine. Jesus is my light.

You show you only understand something if it is spelled out for you. You are unable to understand the purpose of the word.

I spelled out the gospel for you and you still don't understand. I understand the purpose of the word just fine.

Who are the bankers in the parable? Do you think they represent...bankers????

Do you really think that the word is that simplistic?

You tell me all wise one. You should listen to yourself!

This is patently false. God is not like Rumpelstiltskin who gets upset when we don't get His name right. Your view is prejudicial and simplistic in the extreme. The truth is laid out before you, but you are unable to discern it.

So you disagree with John 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 1:21? You are unable to discern the truth because you don't BELIEVE. My view is simplistic in the extreme? The way you belittle others who don't agree with you is prideful in the extreme.

[episkopos]

Actually, you don't understand the parable because you equate it to salvation by works. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's MONEY. (Matthew 25:18) The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability. This parable mentions nothing about treasure and grace. You just see what you want to see.




You still don't know even after Jesus explained the parable. I see just fine. Jesus is my light.



I spelled out the gospel for you and you still don't understand. I understand the purpose of the word just fine.



You tell me all wise one. You should listen to yourself!



So you disagree with John 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 1:21? You are unable to discern the truth because you don't BELIEVE. My view is simplistic in the extreme? The way you belittle others who don't agree with you is prideful in the extreme.

"It is normal for us to draw some security from what we believe. We only start to get angry when what we believe is threatened in a way that deep inside we have no defense for. That is actually an indication that we need to unlodge ourself from the inflexible stand we are taking and consider the possibility that we need to learn more. If we do not dismiss the imperfect beliefs we hold which tint the way we see things, then we stop growing. That is why humility is necessary. We should not get mad, but like the commercial used to say, "Get Glad". The fire is permitted by God to try us for good. Why should that offend us?"

[mailmandan]

The gospel message is accepted by non-believers into becoming believers. You would have this same message to be preached everyday in order to be believed everyday. That is your process.

Not at all. I preach the gospel message to non-believers. Works salvation is not the process. Sanctification is the process for those who have been saved through faith. Paul explains to us why people don't believe the gospel. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

What I am saying is that once a person believes something...he needs to get on with obedience to it. That you call "works." Does this not attest to the fact that you are not able to do what the gospel commands? There is no power in your message...just God being portrayed as a Candy Man.

Obedience which follows saving faith is good works. The gospel commands that we believe the gospel by choosing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the means of our salvation (Romans 1:16) I have obeyed this command by choosing to believe. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes. You add works to the gospel, so there is no power in your message. You are teaching a different gospel.

Christ's finished work of redemption is His part of the covenant. We become involved in this by receiving His empowerment in order to fulfill the will of God. The Pharisees thought they were justified (forever) by receiving the very law of God. We make the same mistake who think that receiving the gospel justifies us for all time...just by receiving it.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) You confuse God's will for us to become saved with God's will for us after we have been saved through faith. Just receiving the gospel and refusing to believe the gospel does not save. We must believe the gospel to be saved for all time. None of the Pharisees were able to keep the law. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:3-4) This message is foolishness to you. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:21)

You are getting caught up with words. I am telling you that salvation is a process...but you look at words and misunderstand them because of the qualifier "sanctification".

Justification is not a process. Sanctification is. It's very important to not confuse these words. You mix these words up and come up with salvation by works (based on our performance) process.

You are showing your lack of understanding here.

Actually, you are (1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Those who have been regenerated have been given a down payment like on a house...We are that house. But if we keep the house for ourselves rather than give it ALL to Him (we are bought at a price)...then WE are forfeiting the sale of the house. We are then reneging on the deal by refusing to move out. Your idea has Jesus paying off your mortgage for you...while you remain in the house.

False. According to Vine's, originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. Paul is talking about a promise that God made, not a promise that WE made. Get the difference? You want to read this as a deposit we make as if we gave ourselves the Holy Spirit. It is GOD, not us that made the down payment; and it is GOD not us who is making the promise. The mistake that you and the others are making is that you argue as if WE made the deposit, and that WE made the promise, and that if WE don't endure, WE will forfeit the down payment. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Your indoctrination was received through a faulty interpretation of the written word. It was reinforced through indoctrination by preachers of dubious orthodoxy...You went from Catholic priests to protestant churchianity. If God had revealed anything to you, you would understand spiritual things.

Another judgment call that you are not qualified to make. You talk to me as if you are God who knows and understands everything. Is this how you treat people in your house church? I was not indoctrinated into what I believe now through protestant churchianity. Straw man argument once again. God has revealed the gospel of Christ to me, has given me the Holy Spirit and I do understand spiritual things because the Holy Spirit reveals spiritual things to me (1 Corinthians 2:11-13). Flesh and blood has not revealed these things to me. This does not mean that I have a full perfect understanding of everything there is to know in the Bible. We continue to learn and grow throughout our Christian lives.

We are born again by the will of God. Some are to become vessels of glory and honour and others to become vessels of shame and repudiation.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, (1 Peter 1:23) Which vessel are you?

The process goes from...redemption...sanctification...and then glorification. But not everyone will survive through this process.

...and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) All that are justified make it to glorification, just not all receive the same rewards.

We will be judged by the measure we judge others with. So someone who claims that the once redeemed were never saved will be rejected in the same way. Jesus will simply say...I never knew you.

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment. (John 7:24) If someone refuses to believe the gospel, then by the word of God, that person is not saved. Not everyone who claims to be redeemed really is. You are not qualified to make this judgment call above. Jesus will say I NEVER knew you to those who HE NEVER knew, not to those who He once knew. Never means never.

From your view! We keep reminding God that He died for us. Then...we remind God that He died for us.....we keep practicing this until we see Him....then we declare...we claim Jesus as our saviour!!! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

I keep reminding you that Christ is the allsufficient means of our salvation and Jesus needs no supplements. I don't have to keep reminding God. He knows that. You don't know what I practice and you don't know about my relationship with Jesus Christ. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for unbelievers, not believers. (John 3:18) Once again, false accusations and judgment calls that you are not qualified to make. The parable of the sower shows that all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) The other soils represent unprepared hearts that resulted in no root and produced no fruit, which does not represent genuine salvation.

The finished work of Christ is to lead to our faithful performance. Otherwise the finished work of Christ is as futile as the giving of the law to make us obedient.

Without trusting in the finished work of Christ as the means of your salvation, faithful performance is futile. It's salvation based performance, but performance based salvation.

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

After we have been saved through faith, obedience is what we are saved for, not by.

There are many people who think believing precludes them from HAVING TO move forward. In the kingdom it is...march or die!!

Do you speak for many people? Moving forward for me is not about have to, but WANT TO. March or die? Some will march faster than others. Are you marching? At what point do we stop marching and die? Nothing with you is about I WANT TO, just must or else. You sound like a Catholic drill sergeant.

Again you are confusing the beginning with the end. If the blood of Christ is sufficient to redeem you, then you will show the same character as Christ. You are thinking that the blood of Jesus only covers a carnal man so as to disguise him as a saint. Like a pig in a prince's clothing. You think God is senile and will be fooled by this?

Once again, more false accusations. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) God knows the sheep from the pigs. I know that God is not senile and is not fooled. You seem to think that the blood of Christ only covers the elite Christians "super saints" and anything less amounts to a carnal man and results in death. What is the purpose of rewards and loss of rewards for believers then? Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9) Either we are saints through faith or else we are not.

This makes no sense at all. One must actually understand the gospel before one makes a statement that only the indoctrinated can react to.

It makes perfect sense to believers. Only those who have been saved through faith can go unto perfection, not unto have been saved through faith. Lost unbelievers cannot go unto perfection (maturity).

A person doesn't make sure he's saved before attempting to sanctify himself! I can't believe they teach this stuff!!!

A person needs to make sure that he is saved or else the process of sanctification does not begin. I can't believe the stuff that you teach. I feel like I'm back in the Catholic church listening to their logic on salvation in regards to faith and works. Difference in style maybe, but still same in substance, "performance/works/based" false gospel. I'm not trying to sound mean spirited hear at all Epi. I am very concerned for you. I constantly hear "performance/based/works salvation" from you, I do not receive the love of Christ from you and you continue to make false accusations about what I teach. I have not experienced these issues in my conversations with glad4mercy or Gadgeteer. There is clearly a problem.

[mailmandan]

Here we see the PURPOSE of the gospel...

First of all, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES (Romans 1:16), not believes and obeys. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) Good works or multiple acts of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are the fruit of our faith, not the means of our salvation.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Rom_1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Paul's mission, as he perceived it, was to bring people to the point of saving faith, which faith, in turn, would motivate one to express and evidence that saving faith in appropriate fashion. This obedience flows from saving faith because we are saved, not to become saved. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR obedience/good works, NOT by obedience/good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced “enough” obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first, then “unto” obedience (works). Notice that Paul did not say, for by grace, we have been saved through faith "and obedience" (Ephesians 2:8) and he did not say that we have been justified by faith "and obedience" (Romans 5:1)

Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There's a contrast here between slaves. There are only two kinds of slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin resulting in death, or slaves of obedience resulting in righteousness. “I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.” (John 8:34). Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense as Paul goes on to say in Rom 6:18 "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Our affections have been changed because our chains have been loosed. When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Of course, this does not teach that our obedience (good works) which follow saving faith is the means of our salvation.

Obedience unto righteousness? Whom shall we believe...Paul or Paul?

Saved by grace through faith results in becoming slaves to obedience unto righteousness. We are no longer slaves of sin unto death. I believe Paul and he is not teaching performance based salvation. Lost people do not produce genuine obedience. We must first be accounted as righteous through faith first (Romans 4:5) and then we produce obedience as the fruit of our faith.