Heh heh --- such is the problem with trying to answer every point. :-)
Originally Posted by mailmandan
"Epiginosko" is similar to "epignosis", which is most often an experiential knowledge; "saved" in most instances. And "epistrepho" is a true spiritual turning.
but will answer what I can. I'm trying to respond to other people as well. Alright, now just because you have known the way of righteousness does not mean that you have truly accepted the way of righteousness, which results in continuing in the way of righteousness and not turning away from it.
We disagree on this. They were "truly escaped", and through the true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus.
They are worse off now because they have rejected the way of righteousness with a fuller knowledge of it. They are more accountable. That is a worse state than ignorance. This passage never said they were "saved."
We hafta read Rm8:30 in contextl
How do you reconcile losing your salvation with Romans 8:30?
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
It begins with "Those WHO LOVE God" --- and these are predestined by their love/belief to be Christlike. Romans8:30 does not exert an exclusive call; that is, "only the FEW are called" --- Matt22:2-14 among others clearly conveys all are called.
Back to Deut30:11-20, and Rm10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31, God makes sure that everyone has "the word of faith" in their hearts and mouths; each can confess and believe and be saved, or can disobey and perish.
Right; he who walks in sin (backslidden!) is by definition disbelieving in Christ.
To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which results from rejecting Christ deliberately.
It's the same "we" --- verse 39 is an encouragement, not a dictate. What do you think about the same "positive encouragement" in Heb6:9? This in the face of clear talk about "falling from salvation" (parapipto is present participle).
Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. We don't walk along our daily life and suddenly fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The author of Hebrews is addressing a large number of Hebrews, which in any large group of professing believers, it's not hard to find unbelievers mixed in. The WE is addressing the entire group. Notice in verse 39, but WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. So the WE who willfully sinned after receiving the knowledge of the truth are not the WE who believed to the saving of the soul.
Do you accept that Eph4:23 is asserting "be regenerated"? If not, then what's the difference between "regeneration" and "being renewed in the spirit of your mind"?
We sin because we are still wearing our flesh which has a sin nature. Just because we have a new nature does not mean that we do not continue to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. I never said that becoming more like Christ in practice is a done deal at conversion. We put on Christ positionally when we receive His imputed righteousness, but we are to put on Christ in practice as well. I have no problem with Ephesians 4:22-24.
No; as you said, it is a WALK (continual!) in sin that endangers us. The opposite of that is "keep yourselves in His love, building yourselves in holy faith" (Jude20-21), and "take care about yourselves and your teaching, ABIDE in these, as you do you will save yourselves". 1Tim4:16.
So how many of us live sinless perfect lives? It's one thing to choose not to sin in given situations and yet another thing to reject Christ altogether and live in a willful habitual lifestyle of sin. So are you striving to keep yourself saved by works or are you striving to keep yourself up to par so you don't walk away from Christ altogether? Where are you going with this? Believe and meaure up or strive to keep believing so you don't walk away?
They are all the same words except "defilements/corruptions".
They are not the same words.
Escaped (apopheugo) through the true-knowledge (epignosis) of the Lord (Kurios) and Savior (Soter) Jesus Christ.
Let's focus on this, may we? Only a person who is NO LONGER a dog or a sheep, can escape vomit and mire, or even WANT to. Can you disagree with this?
Defilements/pollution in Greek is mišasma Strongs #3393
- that which defiles, defilement metaph., vices the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of mankind.
Corruption in Greek is fqora Strongs #5356
- corruption, destruction, perishing that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay. Corruption is much deeper than defilement on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep.
Just because ch2 doesn't say "same-faith-as-us", it nevertheless says "escaped through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of LORD and SAVIOR Jesus". I don't think Peter meant "They escaped defilements through the Lord-to-someone-ELSE, and Savior-to-someone-ELSE Jesus"...
So escaping outward pollution is not the same thing as escaping inward corruption. I have clearly made my case. Also notice that in 2 Peter 1:1, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. This was not said of those in 2 Peter 2:20.
It's sanctified by His blood; how many of the unsaved ever experience that?
The word sanctified here appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians) means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation at all. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it several times to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved!) A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. It's likely that "he was sanctified" by Jesus' blood should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by denying the knowledge of the truth that he heard, and by repudiating the work of the person of Christ Himself. Such a person's apostasy is evidence that his identification with believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
I just answered your post 288. I'd like to make an observation --- but it will sound critical, so I'll apologize in advance, and ask you to accept it with the love and respect intended. (Hope you're not gritting your teeth!)
I'll get to the rest of your questions later, when I have more time. See post 288 above for James 5:19,20.
It seems that you are standing on a platform of "OSAS", and looking at how verses could be understood to support, rather than standing aside and considering the verses at their face value. I know we all can do that, and you may think I'm guilty of the same. But look at your understanding of James5:19-20 --- as I said, how can one fall from where he never WAS, and be led back to where he's never BEEN? It's the same thing with 2Pet2:20-22 --- on what basis is "escaped-defilements-through-the-true-knowledge-of-Lord-Savior-Jesus", not the same position as "escaped-corruption-through-the-true-knowledge-of-Lord-Savior-Jesus"?
Does this seem like fair consideration, or "standing on the platform"?
Forgive me if I offended you.