Once saved, always saved?

[Quickened]

I commented on Galatians before. I was sitting here this afternoon thinking about this thread and I thought of a couple of things.

In layman's terms NOSAS essentially makes God an "Indian Giver". The position being that we did nothing to merit grace originally (Gal 3:2). For that to be taken away due to our lack of obedience isn't actually logical. It wasn't our obedience that obtained grace. I was saved in spite of being a sinner. Therefore having begun in the Spirit I am not being perfected in the flesh or things that I can actually take responsibility for. (Gal 3:3)

As I stated before Paul then uses Abraham as the ultimate example. It was his faith that was counted as righteousness. Galatians 3:26 does an excellent job of not only reiterating what Paul has been saying but emphasizes how God sees us.

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

For a moment let's think of a church that was worldly and had problems with sin. Corinth always comes to mind for me. I'm sure if I said "Hey let's generate a list of problems that were in that church." we could come up with quite a list. Sometimes we read past introductions. Let's take another look at something when discussing this church

1Co 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

All the problems and sin that Paul addresses has everything to do with the people directly addressed in this letter. Paul never once questions their salvation or makes them think that they lost it. In fact if there was ever a time for Paul to mention being cut off from the Father this would be it. Yet the very people that were submerged in this sinful mire, he refers to with the most heavenly of addresses.

First he acknowledges them as the church of God.

Second he acknowledges that they are sanctified (to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.) in Christ Jesus.

Finally he acknowledges that they are called to be saints together with all those who call upon the name of the Lord.

After reading verse two there should be no doubt in our minds that these individuals are Christians. These individuals are saved. They are sanctified. As Paul wrote this I believe it. Although it may be difficult as we go on and start reading about the church and the many problems they had. Divisions, boasting, profaning the Lord's supper, sexual immorality. Just to name a few.

The thing is Paul is taking the perfect Pastoral approach. Verse 2 here is a reminder that "Hey you are a Christian". He then at length addresses their spiritual immaturity and points them in the right direction. You see when Paul established this church there (Acts 18) he was addressing Gentiles that were used to a certain way of living. What we are seeing here is that there wasn't a maturity when it came time for Paul to write them. In fact there were numerous problems. It's easy to get wrapped up in those problems as we read on through the letter but we must always remember how Paul sees them. As Christians.

Paul takes the time to steer them in the right direction. Just because someone is saved doesn't mean they can do whatever they want until it's time to meet the Lord. A lot of times when people object to OSAS it's on the basis that it gives people freedom to sin as they will. I don't know how that conclusion is drawn as the New Testament is full of walking in the spirit versus walking in the flesh. Why would he even need to address it? If the body of believers obtained a level of perfectionism then these types of letters wouldn't be needed. The fact is that these young churches faced problems that Paul tackled head on. There was no threat to lose salvation. In all honesty it is quite the opposite when you read Galatians. In fact it's quite the opposite when you read the bible (more on that later).

It's almost impossible to come away from reading scripture and think that we have anything to do with our salvation. Again it is a gift from God that we received it and are kept by it. (Gal 3)

This is what makes Christianity different as a "Religion". Grace is a free gift. The majority of the other worldly "religions" have some sort of system of works attached to it. To think one can lose salvation misunderstands the gift portion of grace.

[IMINXTC]

So true and so important.

[Lyndie]

I used to be OSAS, however after reading and studying salvation I have changed my mind. The bible says its a gift of God, and rightly so because it is. But just as I can return a gift someone buys me, I believe I can return the gift of salvation. And just because I return that gift doesn't mean I never had it, which is an argument that many hold to.So to say we never had salvation in the first place is imo, wrong. We choose to accept Christ and his free gift of salvation, so I believe we can also choose to 'return' that gift. The bible says we have to work out our salvation. We wake up every day and choose to follow God, do we not? We have to endure and run the race until the end. We can start a race and not finish, we can endure for a while, and then give up. I believe as long as we do what we are supposed to, then God will help us, but He will not do it for us. We don't become some autonomous robot once we get saved.

[Diggindeeper]

Lindie, that is one of the best explanations I have ever seen! And I agree. We don't 'lose' our free will and the ability to choose just because we 'accept'! Any other reasoning, to me, means that we would become mere puppets or like you said, the autonomous robot.

(You know, Abraham not only BELIEVED God, but he OBEYED God as well!)

Edit to add: We don't just 'lose' salvation, like losing a ring or a wallet. But we can choose to turn and walk away. And people do that all the time.

[Quickened]

I used to be OSAS, however after reading and studying salvation I have changed my mind. The bible says its a gift of God, and rightly so because it is. But just as I can return a gift someone buys me, I believe I can return the gift of salvation. And just because I return that gift doesn't mean I never had it, which is an argument that many hold to.So to say we never had salvation in the first place is imo, wrong. We choose to accept Christ and his free gift of salvation, so I believe we can also choose to 'return' that gift. The bible says we have to work out our salvation. We wake up every day and choose to follow God, do we not? We have to endure and run the race until the end. We can start a race and not finish, we can endure for a while, and then give up. I believe as long as we do what we are supposed to, then God will help us, but He will not do it for us. We don't become some autonomous robot once we get saved.

Show me from scripture why you believe this. I see what you are saying but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion which ultimately changed your position. You start your whole argument by saying that you believe you can return the gift of salvation. But we know that he whom has begun a good work in us is the one who will complete it.

Php 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
Php 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Same idea comes from Peter in his first letter in our bible.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

The basic introduction itself expounds on who this letter is addressed to. Not merely some people that kind of believe. The recipiants of this letter were according to the foreknowledge of God. Look at Revelations 13:8. The names that are in the book of life were there before the foundation of the world. Paul seemed to know a little about this book when he referenced it in Phillipians 4:3. revelations 20:15 show us that those whose names aren't there wind up in the lake of fire. These names were before the foundation of the world.

That's why when you look at Peter's letter you may notice that our inheritance is imperishable amongst other things but also that it is kept in heaven. How could peter say that if there was a possibility of someone tarnishing that by willfully and knowingly trample on God's grace.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude (1:24) alludes to the same thing by saying

Jud 1:24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Don't just focus on the keeping us from stumbling part. It is He that presents us blameless! You will see that necessity when you read Revelations 21 and see what kind of requirement is in place for those that are in heaven.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing unclean can enter it and we are able to enter it because God is the one who makes us clean. He put our names in the book of life. He keeps our inheritance!

Paul knew this when he was writing to Timothy.

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,
2Ti 1:12 which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

It's almost a microcosm of the verses I have posted thus far. It was God who was the author of salvation. It was God that called them. It had nothing to do with works but everything to do with grace which was given before the ages began. Think about that then think again what was said about the book of life.

If you ever find yourself reading through Romans you find the same style of thought.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It is God that does all these things. God is in complete control. He is the master architect whom despite our failings and shortcomings provided a solution to our sinful condition from the beginning.

If grace being a gift has you twisted then think of our salvation as adoption

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

I could go on. Everything in scripture seems to be telling us that God is the author of our adoption. You seem to think that you can return this gift but can a child just adopted then turn around and nullify his adoption? It would be foolish to even suggest such a thing because the child doesn't know anything about what is good for him. The parents know what is best. God then knows even more so!

So can a worrying verse in Hebrews negate all of these things? Is scripture contradictory? Of course not. Then maybe our own understanding of that specific verse can be made clear through other scripture. Read these things in context and take your time. If you are having trouble understanding this then do something else.... read the OT.

Those people belonged to God regardless of their shortcomings. Starting from Adam whom God created and moving onward. As the nation of Israel develops we see that as God's people. Sure there are other tribes but these are God's people whom he brought out of Egypt for his own purpose. Not their choice. They whined and muttered the entirety of the exodus. But we get the advantage of seeing how it was for their best interest. Yet they couldn't see that.

[Quickened]

Lindie, that is one of the best explanations I have ever seen! And I agree. We don't 'lose' our free will and the ability to choose just because we 'accept'! Any other reasoning, to me, means that we would become mere puppets or like you said, the autonomous robot.

(You know, Abraham not only BELIEVED God, but he OBEYED God as well!)

Edit to add: We don't just 'lose' salvation, like losing a ring or a wallet. But we can choose to turn and walk away. And people do that all the time.

With the highest of respect not one individual is God's puppet nor are people being controlled from afar like robots. That's why we constantly see the need for repentance. That's why Paul has to instruct the Corinthian church to quit these immoral ways. He reminds them of their Holy calling and calls for them to cease all the immorality, disputes and other such problems that they chose to engage in.

Those that are God's often commit sin and fall into error. See David. After impregnating Bathsheba and murdering her husband David calls upon the Lord to cleanse Him (Psa 51) and make him new again. He asks the Lord to restore the joy of His salvation not to restore his salvation. There is a lot we can get out of that.

You seem to imply that Christians can just turn and walk away from their salvation. I believe the entirety of 1 John negates not only this idea but that one can again merit their own salvation.

1Jn 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

Special attention to verse 19 shows that they seemingly went out from us. But they weren't one of us. One of who? One of the Christians that this letter is addressed to. Because, the letter continues, had they have been one of us (Christians) they would have continued. It's not that they were once Christians who then failed to run the race like people say. They weren't Christians to begin with and it is now made evident from their eventual actions and failure to persevere. The perseverance is something that is of a lifetime. The race that we often refer to is a lifetime. You can't assume that because someone stumbles or fails to live up to your set expectations that they are no longer Christian, have sullied their salvation or otherwise blotted out their own name from the book of life.

It was as much of a problem of the church then as it is now. A lot of people can verbally confess Christ and eventually live a life that is obviously not one given by God. It is known by their fruits amongst other things. But we know that no man is perfect by reading 1 John. There is a reason after all he feels the need to illustrate the fact if we san we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Again it is peppered all of scripture. The robot/puppet thing is a horrible analogy because as we often see men of God often use their own judgement to make poor choices. From OT saints to NT saints. Jonah wasn't puppeteered by God but when God had enough and decided it was far more important to save an entire city than have Jonah putzing around Joppa and Tarshish he then interfered. We have our own will, choices up to a certain extent which we see is only circumvented by God in certain situations where God chooses to use a man to do his work.

[Lyndie]

I am not saying that if someone sins they lose their salvation, we all have days where we fall short. Sinning doesn't mean we don't believe in God. I am speaking of those who at one time did believe, and because of something in thier life, they made a choice to stop believing. David sinned, but he also asked God to cleanse him, like you said. He chose to go to God and seek repentance. I think that is what people are missing...there are so many things in the bible we must actively choose to do, such as abiding in Jesus. God doesn't automatically make me abide, it is a daily choice. I don't understand how people can think that God will keep us without us making a conscious choice to follow Him daily. And we can choose to follow him, or we can choose to not follow him, even after we are saved. As Diggin' said earlier, there are just to many 'ifs' for me to believe in osas. IF I abide, IF I seek His face, IF I follow his commandments. I also think if it were a matter of God keeping us saved, we would never doubt or question Him. We wouldn't have to because it was Him doing all the work.

[notuptome]

I am not saying that if someone sins they lose their salvation, we all have days where we fall short. Sinning doesn't mean we don't believe in God. I am speaking of those who at one time did believe, and because of something in thier life, they made a choice to stop believing. David sinned, but he also asked God to cleanse him, like you said. He chose to go to God and seek repentance. I think that is what people are missing...there are so many things in the bible we must actively choose to do, such as abiding in Jesus. God doesn't automatically make me abide, it is a daily choice. I don't understand how people can think that God will keep us without us making a conscious choice to follow Him daily. And we can choose to follow him, or we can choose to not follow him, even after we are saved. As Diggin' said earlier, there are just to many 'ifs' for me to believe in osas. IF I abide, IF I seek His face, IF I follow his commandments. I also think if it were a matter of God keeping us saved, we would never doubt or question Him. We wouldn't have to because it was Him doing all the work.

Fortuneately for us Jesus prayed to the Father and the Father gave us the Comforter that He may abide with us forever. Our salvation is of God and not of ourselves. God paid too high a price to save us from our sins to allow the devil to recapture us after we have been redeemed by the precious blood of Gods Own dear Son shed on Calvary. It is the height of hypocrasy to assume that you can believe in God and then change your mind. You could only believe in the first place through the mercy of God by the hearing of Gods word.

Surely there is nothing this world can offer that could replace the joy of knowing and being known of Christ. What shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Silver or gold?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Lyndie]

So a person can choose to believe, but not choose to not believe (change their mind)? How about those in the bible that walked away from Jesus because his teaching were too hard? Do you think they never believed in the first place? The Holy Spirit does work in us...IF we abide. If salvation has nothing to do with a choice, then everyone would be saved. There are people who hear God's word all the time and still choose to not believe. Just hearing the Word in and of itself saves no one, we choose to believe.

[PJW]

If you "slip-up" sometimes, it manifests that you didn't repent at all. Jesus said "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:" (John 14:24) God won't save people that don't love Him. Jesus said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24) Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin..." (John 8:34) But, thankfully, Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) You can live a life without sin!! Repentance is "turn from or change". If you repent of sin, (as we are told to do by Peter in Acts 2:38 you are not a sinner anymore! The truth will free you from your flesh.

[Quickened]

I am not saying that if someone sins they lose their salvation, we all have days where we fall short. Sinning doesn't mean we don't believe in God.

Thank you for further clarifying your position.

I am speaking of those who at one time did believe, and because of something in thier life, they made a choice to stop believing. David sinned, but he also asked God to cleanse him, like you said. He chose to go to God and seek repentance.

What causes that to begin with? Why did David repent as he did? Why not cain? Cain dialogued with God, knew enough to go through the motions of an offering and yet he was unrepentant. Why? I know this is difficult but put yourself in his shoes. If you made any transgression against a God who you clearly knew why not repent? What causes an individual to feel compunction? Obviously someone who has transgressed God's law feels the need to repent. There is a realization that one has sinned against God and this occurs within the inner man. It causes the individual to humble himself before God. But what causes that in a regenerate man and not an unregenerate man?

No one chooses to repent truly unless they are regenerated in the first place. It's part of the new nature in Christ. That passage in first John shows that if they were truly Christian they would have continued. It was a sign to show that they weren't regenerate in the first place.

IF I abide, IF I seek His face, IF I follow his commandments.

How does one who is dead in trespasses and without newness of life do this? Again it is because of your regenerate nature that you even think about these things.

I also think if it were a matter of God keeping us saved, we would never doubt or question Him. We wouldn't have to because it was Him doing all the work.

Why? Just because we are saved doesn't mean we are privy to his will. Of course we may call in to question a number of any events in our life or doubt the things that goes on. It's part of the growing process. People experience a gamut of emotions due to the experiences and trials that we face.

[Quickened]

So a person can choose to believe, but not choose to not believe (change their mind)? How about those in the bible that walked away from Jesus because his teaching were too hard? Do you think they never believed in the first place?

Just like my previous post was saying... what even makes a man believe. Is it not God that first opens the heart of a man to believe?

Those that walked away from Christ weren't saved in the first place. Being privy to miracles, walking and or dialoging with God, seeing works of God doesn't guarantee someone regenerating faith. Cain is an example of that. There are others in scripture.

The Holy Spirit does work in us...IF we abide.

This is going to be one of those times where I ask that you provide scripture. Where do you see that the operations of the Spirit are solely dependent on our obedience?

[jandl]

If you "slip-up" sometimes, it manifests that you didn't repent at all. Jesus said "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:" (John 14:24) God won't save people that don't love Him. Jesus said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24) Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin..." (John 8:34) But, thankfully, Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) You can live a life without sin!! Repentance is "turn from or change". If you repent of sin, (as we are told to do by Peter in Acts 2:38 you are not a sinner anymore! The truth will free you from your flesh.

So far from the truth, where do I begin? "I'm just A SINNER....SAVED by GRACE, when I stood condemned to death, he took my place..." I guess Paul had to get saved over and over and over again, because he said that no matter how hard he tried, he still sinned sometimes. I hardly can believe that you are more spiritual than Paul.

[glad4mercy]

Just clicking. I used to worry about "losing my salvation" if I sinned. I felt like if I messed up one more time, God might say, "That's it David, I'm through with you. It was almost like I was on probation. That all changed when I came to understand sonship and adoption. I have two daughters, and I can say truly that there is nothing that they can do that would make me stop loving them or change the fact that their my daughters. Now, it is true that they could disown me, or choose not to have a relationship with me if they chose to, ( of course they havent), but even if they did I would always be there for them if they wanted to come back. Very much like the parable of the Prodigal Son.

So my point is that we can walk away from God or abandon God, but He does not give up on us, at least not while were still alive. I also believe that if one is truly a child of God and falls into sin, God will discipline them with the rod of correction. Also,a true Christian can only be comfortable in an active state of rebellion against God by a long, deliberate rejection of God and hardening of heart. I have backslidden as a Christian and lived in a state of sin for a long period of time, but I never got comfortable in that condition. My conscience and spirit was grieved and troubled on a daily basis. Would I have perished if I died in that condition? I don't know. I do know that God was merciful to me. On the other hand, can a Christian use this mercy as a basis to think they can trifle with sin and get by? Of course not. It is doubtful that people who think like that are truly saved to begin with.

The Bible is clear that no liar, adulterer, fornicator, sorceror, etc. will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. If a person calls themselves a Christian and practices such things, they are deceiving themselves and need to repent. Now I practiced some of these things in my backslidden state, but God showed me mercy and pulled me out.

The belief that one can lose their salvation can be dangerous if taken too far because it removes the blessed assurance that we are kept by the power of God, and it can lead to too much emphasis on keeping ourselves in our own strength which can only lead to failure. The belief in once saved always saved can be dangerous if taken to far, because it can cause a false sense of security in those who are professing Christ, yet dabbling in sin. Both views when taken to the extreme can be hazardous. Both views are held by sincere, genuine Christians, one side emphasizes Divine Grace the other human responsibility. Both Grace and human responsibility are Biblical teachings, it just seems that some over-emphasize one to the exclusion or neglect of the other.

The bottom line to me is everyone who is in Christ and abides in Him is secure and there is no occasion of stumbling in them.

[jandl]

The Bible is clear that no liar, adulterer, fornicator, sorceror, etc. will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Another verse that messes Christians up so bad because they misunderstand it. "INHERIT" is the key word to help you understand it. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, which is for Christians, and it is a judgment based on our works as a Christian, we will be rewarded and crowned if the judgment is favorable enough to the Lord (for lack of better wording...lol). We inherit rewards and crowns and praise, or we DON'T. If we lie and commit adultery, that jeopardizes our chances of INHERITING those rewards. The subject is NOT whether we go to heaven, but what we may or may not inherit at the Judgment.