Once saved, always saved?

[ReigningKing]

Good post. :-)

Just one thing --- whose faith? His, or ours?

When I said "faith", I ment ours. Sorry for the confusion.

[Gadgeteer]

Thank You! A very honest outlook and I appreciate it very much.

Joey, we expect you to stay in touch, and report good things in the coming weeks. Every guy is tempted in this way, because guys are "sight-stimulated".

But as I said, it is impossible to sin while consciously holding Jesus' hand.

If it helps, know that we are praying for you, and longing for your healing with you. I know I speak for everyone here. The ball's in the air, catch it and run with it. Jesus is right there with you giving you strength.

BTW, your Private Messaging and Visitor Messaging are "off".

:-)


PS: I was serious about that "cure for a cold". 1000mg C, 50mg Zinc, vitamin D echanecea with goldenseal. If I catch it early enough, a scratchy throat just goes away, and doesn't even turn into a cold. Otherwise, it's two days max. Maybe a cough for a little longer. Of course, not touching door handles and using the antiseptic wipes on shopping carts and after handling money are all good too...

[Gadgeteer]

When I said "faith", I meant ours. Sorry for the confusion.

No confusion, "RK". Just wanted to be clear where we both were. "Where faith comes from" is the issue behind this whole thread. There are three positions of "Once Saved, Always Saved":

3. Calvinism --- "faith" is a gift from God (perceiving "THAT" in Eph2:8 refers to "that faith"), men are passive pawns in the hands of a sovereign-predestining God.

2. Eternal Security --- "faith" is our choice in the beginning, but God preserves us (or we're too changed) so faith is assured from then on.

1. Antinomianism --- "faith" is more mental assent, and does not need to fellowship with Christ; one can believe but still walk in sin, and be "saved in spirit though corrupt in flesh".

Noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said in Eph2:8, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

My view (which aligns with OSNAS), is that salvation is a free gift from God, received by our conscious faith; it is dwelling in Christ and Him in us, by our continued faith. Thus, "as you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, being firmly rooted in Him and established in your faith, ...overflowing with gratitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Col2:6)

Faith that receives His graceful gift, and abides IN it, is not a meritorious work; it's all His work, received by faith and humble gratefulness, zero of our effort or earning. "Faith" that receives the gift of salvation is broken and humbled and as far away from conceit as the East is from the West. It is a conviction of our own worthlessness and need of His sacrifice. It is a response of love, for the love that He gave first.

I bet we essentially agree. ;-)

[1Adam12]

All true --- well said. Might be true. The same love for men (even those who try to injure and destroy us!) that Jesus had, is required of us; and that is only possible by Him in us. Well --- we have to expand on this "faith thing".

I'm not hating on those who think they are perfect, I just think it's all in their head.

Jude says "build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love". (20-21.) Paul said in Rom1:17 that the righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith, to ending faith; the just shall live by faith.

So "faith" that saves is not just a one time deal, but our constant choice. Many things can break our faith.

•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by our own lust and sin. James1:14-16, Heb3:12-14.
•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by unprincipled men. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 1Tim6:20-21, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9.
•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by bad angels, 1Tim4:1, 2Cor11:3.

Indeed, we are at just as much risk from satan's wiles, as Eve was in that 2Cor11:3 verse!

So the issue really isn't "OSAS", it is "abide in Jesus, and He (will abide!) in you." Jn15:4.

I meant Faith as that initial point where you let Jesus come into your heart. As you point out our daily faith comes under attack in many ways which is why I think that initial point it where you were OSAS. I suppose everyone goes thru ups and downs but to really loose all your faith seems not possible to me, so i suspect it's not possible for anyone else. What you state about being deceived away from Jesus is true and unavoidable to some degree or another so I'd have to take that as never being able to be saved in the first place. I say Jesus blood and plan has it covered.

[glad4mercy]

All true. But we overcome by His power; and we capture "overcoming", by drawing close to Him, that His power becomes ours, as His heart becomes our heart. The closer we are to Him, the farther we are from sin.

James embodies this in chapter 4; "draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." How do we do that? Prayer. There are at least seven facets of prayer (praise/worship, thanksgiving, repentance, intercession, fellowship, waiting-on-God, and petition). Too often we only pursue the last facet, treating God as if He's a cosmic Santa. James also said, "You have not because you ask not; you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions".

Psalm37:4 tells us to delight in the Lord and He will give us the desires of our heart. The underlying principle is that if we are delighting in Him, our desires will be His desires.

We do not focus on being righteous for God, "whipping ourselves into shape". We focus on submitting to Him as children, revering Him as Master --- and HE cleans our hearts and makes us righteous and sinless. The other facets of prayer are more important than the last.
Amen!

The moment Jesus died, the veil tore. But it wasn't just torn two thousand years ago --- it's still torn, for each of us. We are still invited inside, to commune with God, in intimate fellowship.

Will we not enter the veil, where Jesus entered for us? Is He Lord of our lives occasionally, or every moment? If it's only "occasionally", then it's really not at all.

"Love" does not have an "OFF" switch. We are not commanded to love Him SOME of the time, but fully; for He fully and unfailingly loves us.

Great post Gadgeteer. Continuously drawing near to God is the key to spiritual overcoming.

Hebrews 10: 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Grounds for confidence.

a. The blood of Jesus, by which we are justified.
b. Jesus, our risen and ascended High Priest, whose mediation saves us.
c. God's invitation, He bids us to come.

The manner we must approach God.

a. With a true heart, ( regenerated by the Grace of God- Hebrews 8:10)
b. With hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. ( freed from past guilt by the blood of Christ. Now there is no condemnation... Romans 8:1)
c. Bodies washed with pure water. Once our hearts, (inward parts) are cleansed, the outer man can also be clean.
d. Come to God with boldness and assurance, knowing that God is Faithful and true.

Helps for believers.
a. Fellowship and encouragement of other believers.
b. Worship with other believers.

[Gadgeteer]

I'm not hating on those who think they are perfect, I just think it's all in their head.

There is a T-shirt, "Those who think they are perfect, really annoy those of us who are."

Jude says "build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love". (20-21.) Paul said in Rom1:17 that the righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith, to ending faith; the just shall live by faith.

So "faith" that saves is not just a one time deal, but our constant choice. Many things can break our faith.

•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by our own lust and sin. James1:14-16, Heb3:12-14.
•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by unprincipled men. Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 1Tim6:20-21, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9.
•·We can be deceived away from Jesus by bad angels, 1Tim4:1, 2Cor11:3.

Indeed, we are at just as much risk from satan's wiles, as Eve was in that 2Cor11:3 verse!

So the issue really isn't "OSAS", it is "abide in Jesus, and He (will abide!) in you." Jn15:4.

I meant Faith as that initial point where you let Jesus come into your heart. As you point out our daily faith comes under attack in many ways which is why I think that initial point it where you were OSAS. I suppose everyone goes thru ups and downs but to really loose all your faith seems not possible to me, so i suspect it's not possible for anyone else. What you state about being deceived away from Jesus is true and unavoidable to some degree or another so I'd have to take that as never being able to be saved in the first place. I say Jesus blood and plan has it covered.

In those verses cited above (which I highlighted in red), who is the audience? The saved, or the unsaved?

I did a study here on all of Hebrews --- the entire letter, chapter by chapter is solidly against "OSAS". Did you see it? Look just at 12:7-9 --- clearly we can either submit to God's discipline and live (in no way can that mean anything other than "live eternally"), or we can refuse His discipline and no longer be children but illegitimate. He could not have meant "those who HAVE NEVER submitted" --- it's presented as a clear choice, "SHALL we not SUBMIT ...and live", set opposed to "if we are WITHOUT discipline (of which we all have become partakers!) then WE are illegitimate and not sons".

That's as clear ceasing-to-be-born-again, as Scripture states. Movement from "have-become-partakers" (past), to "if we ARE without" present.

I'd love to hear (uhm, read?) your thoughts on this.

BTW, I loved the show "Adam Twelve".

"One Adam Twelve, see the woman corner of Archer and Twelfth street, possible mugging."
"One Adam Twelve Roger..."

(Never did figure out who Roger was...)

[1Adam12]

There is a T-shirt, "Those who think they are perfect, really annoy those of us who are."


In those verses cited above (which I highlighted in red), who is the audience? The saved, or the unsaved?

I did a study here on all of Hebrews --- the entire letter, chapter by chapter is solidly against "OSAS". Did you see it? Look just at 12:7-9 --- clearly we can either submit to God's discipline and live (in no way can that mean anything other than "live eternally"), or we can refuse His discipline and no longer be children but illegitimate. He could not have meant "those who HAVE NEVER submitted" --- it's presented as a clear choice, "SHALL we not SUBMIT ...and live", set opposed to "if we are WITHOUT discipline (of which we all have become partakers!) then WE are illegitimate and not sons".

That's as clear ceasing-to-be-born-again, as Scripture states. Movement from "have-become-partakers" (past), to "if we ARE without" present.

I'd love to hear (uhm, read?) your thoughts on this.

BTW, I loved the show "Adam Twelve".

"One Adam Twelve, see the woman corner of Archer and Twelfth street, possible mugging."
"One Adam Twelve Roger..."

(Never did figure out who Roger was...)

Ha Roger, you didn't know Roger? LOL. Your belief is your belief I don't see it saying anything about salvation. So in your belief you go through life not knowing if your saved because it may be the one last little sin that did you in, or you fell away from Christ during some troubles? What is the yardstick for you, is it what others think of you or approve of you? No one is without sin, anyone who is please step forward. The reward for sin is death. This may cause you real trouble here on earth and may cause you problems in heaven because each person will be judged-individually. Only God and YOU know your heart. To me, from what I've read all have failed and I believe that.

[ReigningKing]

No confusion, "RK". Just wanted to be clear where we both were. "Where faith comes from" is the issue behind this whole thread. There are three positions of "Once Saved, Always Saved":

3. Calvinism --- "faith" is a gift from God (perceiving "THAT" in Eph2:8 refers to "that faith"), men are passive pawns in the hands of a sovereign-predestining God.

2. Eternal Security --- "faith" is our choice in the beginning, but God preserves us (or we're too changed) so faith is assured from then on.

1. Antinomianism --- "faith" is more mental assent, and does not need to fellowship with Christ; one can believe but still walk in sin, and be "saved in spirit though corrupt in flesh".

Noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson said in Eph2:8, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

My view (which aligns with OSNAS), is that salvation is a free gift from God, received by our conscious faith; it is dwelling in Christ and Him in us, by our continued faith. Thus, "as you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, being firmly rooted in Him and established in your faith, ...overflowing with gratitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Col2:6)

Faith that receives His graceful gift, and abides IN it, is not a meritorious work; it's all His work, received by faith and humble gratefulness, zero of our effort or earning. "Faith" that receives the gift of salvation is broken and humbled and as far away from conceit as the East is from the West. It is a conviction of our own worthlessness and need of His sacrifice. It is a response of love, for the love that He gave first.

I bet we essentially agree. ;-)

More like completely. Great post.

[Gadgeteer]

Ha Roger, you didn't know Roger? LOL.

I think I do --- wasn't he one of the crew in the movie, "Airplane"?

"Got the vector, Victor?"
"Get the clearance, Clarence."
"Roger."
"Huh?" "What?"
..."Huh?"

Your belief is your belief I don't see it saying anything about salvation.

You don't?
"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons.
What son is there whom his father does not discipline?
But if you are WITHOUT discipline, of which all have become partakers,
then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
We had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them.
SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, and live?"

I perceive:
1. He's speaking to a saved audience, "you all HAVE BECOME partakers AS SONS".
2. But if you (same people) are WITHOUT, then you are not sons but illegitimate.
3. SHALL WE (including himself) not rather BE subject to God AND LIVE?

In no way can that mean to me "never-were-saved", or "cannot-cease-being-sons". Add to that verse 25: "...much less shall WE escape who turn away from (God)".

Turn-away-from-God is the same exact thing as if-we-are-without-God's-discipline. I see two positions; choose to be in subjection to God's discipline and live eternally, or turn away from God and refuse His discipline and cease to be "born-again sons".

Can you tell me how you perceive my position as wrong, and/or how you perceive that passage?

So in your belief you go through life not knowing if you're saved...

Nonsense --- I know with the same certainty as Paul knew:
"I know whom I have believed, and am confident that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words (hold fast the Gospel!) which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who indwells us the treasure (eternal life!) entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14

And what John said in 1:5:12, "He who has the Son has eternal life ...you may KNOW you have eternal life".

Full confidence, and recognition of full personal responsibility; not Human power or muscle, but the power of the SPIRIT, through our faith.

... because it may be the one last little sin that did you in...

Sins do not condemn us to Hell; nor does lack-of-sin save us. "Repentance" is a walk, as we abide in Christ.

or you fell away from Christ during some troubles?

Is that possible? Please contrast the difference between the thirteeners, and the fifteeners, in Luke8:13-15. The fifteeners held fast and bore fruit with perseverance; but the thirteeners chose not to be diligent to withstand temptation, or affliction and persecution (Mk4:17).

What is the yardstick for you, is it what others think of you or approve of you?

The "yardstick", is Christ-in-me. It is very possible to go too far (or "go out from us") and forsake Jesus and His teachings, in 2Jn1:7-9. Paul says the same thing in 1Tim4:16. Paul warns us to TEST ourselves to see if we are in Christ and Christ is in us, 2Cor13:5 --- and that "test ourselves" is the exact same thing Peter says in 2:1:5-11.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on 2Pet1:5-11 how is that not warning "be diligent to stay saved"?

No one is without sin, anyone who is please step forward. The reward for sin is death. This may cause you real trouble here on earth and may cause you problems in heaven because each person will be judged-individually. Only God and YOU know your heart. To me, from what I've read all have failed and I believe that.

All have failed, because we are weak. But God knew our weakness, and did what we could not do, sending His Son in payment for our sin. Romans8:3!

The thing is --- if we're saved by God's grace through our faith, then it's not just beginning faith, but also persevering faith. THAT is what Paul meant in 1Tim4:16:
"Take care about yourself and your teaching; persevere in these; as you do you will save yourselves..."

I look forward to you letting me look through your eyes, at how you understand passages like Heb12:7-9, 2Pet1:5-11, and some of the other things we've discussed.

:-)

[1Adam12]

I will save you the trouble of typing yourself to death. I stated what I feel, what I believe. I see no where it says that your going to loose your gift of salvation if you do x,y,z or what amount "walk / works" you speak of. This insanity is why many people reject Christianity. They clearly see the walkers are no better than themselves, but are always pointing out the "walk" to others. We were not worthy to being with and by his grace we have this great gift to celebrate and share with others and tell them, but people are to hung up the the works to see what a really precious gift it is they even go so far as to tell other Christians they got it wrong. You don't have to do anything to receive a gift but accept it. And being a father I wouldn't lay out impossible tasks for my children either. Peace brother Peace.

[Neanias]

I will save you the trouble of typing yourself to death. I stated what I feel, what I believe. I see no where it says that your going to loose your gift of salvation if you do x,y,z or what amount "walk / works" you speak of. This insanity is why many people reject Christianity. They clearly see the walkers are no better than themselves, but are always pointing out the "walk" to others. We were not worthy to being with and by his grace we have this great gift to celebrate and share with others and tell them, but people are to hung up the the works to see what a really precious gift it is they even go so far as to tell other Christians they got it wrong. You don't have to do anything to receive a gift but accept it. And being a father I wouldn't lay out impossible tasks for my children either. Peace brother Peace.

This thinking only makes sense if we think that God cannot/will not give men power to be as he is.

It is true that the Father doesn't ask us to do something without giving us the ability to. So for those who do not hear the gospel, they are to love there neighbors, hereby fulfilling the law.

But to those who hear the gospel, and truly hear it, he makes available grace (THAT is the free gift) by which they can walk as he walked. The only condition, as you say, for the free gift, is to accept it, which means to repent and turn to God. But once we do have this grace, we must use it to run the race, walk as he walked. Then we are pleasing to him!

Otherwise we are just burying our talent! Or making an imaginative salvation for ourselves, that has nothing to do with reality...

[Gadgeteer]

I will save you the trouble of typing yourself to death. I stated what I feel, what I believe. I see nowhere it says that you're going to loose your gift of salvation if you do x,y,z (Heb3:12-14, 10:26-29,) or what amount "walk / works" you speak of.

Hi, "Adam". "Works", no. "Walk", as in Col2:6 ("as you have received Christ so walk in Him"), that's another way of saying "continue to believe".

This insanity is why many people reject Christianity. They clearly see the walkers are no better than themselves, but are always pointing out the "walk" to others.

I agree with you; we do not be good for God, but God is good in and through us. The point is to draw near to God that He draws near to us, that His heart becomes our hearts.

We were not worthy to being with and by his grace we have this great gift to celebrate and share with others and tell them, but people are too hung up the the works to see what a really precious gift it is (and) they even go so far as to tell other Christians they got it wrong. You don't have to do anything to receive a gift but accept it.

That's exactly the point --- ACCEPT the gift. This is the key to our discussion, what "accept" means, and if it's a one-time-deal, or if it's a daily faith.

And being a father I wouldn't lay out impossible tasks for my children either. Peace brother Peace.

I don't understand how Heb12:7-9 could be anything but a warning not to "cease-to-be-born-again" (especially with the context of 12:15 & 25, and the rest of the letter). But as you wish; my motivation is not to argue or be right, but to encourage brothers and sisters in Christ that they be stronger in their faith, deeper in Scripture and closer to Jesus, and to promote fellowship between believers. If we disagree on this, but agree on what salvation is, then we can stand together as brothers and look forward with joy to His coming.

One who claims to be a Christian and understands that means "Christ-in-you", not walking in sin but the indwelling Lord and Spirit moving us towards righteousness, is a brother or sister. There is a time when OSAS does not matter --- brothers are far more important than "being right".

Yet, as I've said, if something we've discussed here comes back to someone's memory when he or she is weak and tempted, and STRENGTHENS them so that they endure, then the whole discussion has been a complete success. So too if we sharpen each other, even if we disagree on some things. And no two people in the world will agree on everything!

God bless.

:-)

[1Adam12]

Hi, "Adam". "Works", no. "Walk", as in Col2:6 ("as you have received Christ so walk in Him"), that's another way of saying "continue to believe". I agree with you; we do not be good for God, but God is good in and through us. The point is to draw near to God that He draws near to us, that His heart becomes our hearts. That's exactly the point --- ACCEPT the gift. This is the key to our discussion, what "accept" means, and if it's a one-time-deal, or if it's a daily faith. I don't understand how Heb12:7-9 could be anything but a warning not to "cease-to-be-born-again" (especially with the context of 12:15 & 25, and the rest of the letter). But as you wish; my motivation is not to argue or be right, but to encourage brothers and sisters in Christ that they be stronger in their faith, deeper in Scripture and closer to Jesus, and to promote fellowship between believers. If we disagree on this, but agree on what salvation is, then we can stand together as brothers and look forward with joy to His coming.

One who claims to be a Christian and understands that means "Christ-in-you", not walking in sin but the indwelling Lord and Spirit moving us towards righteousness, is a brother or sister. There is a time when OSAS does not matter --- brothers are far more important than "being right".

Yet, as I've said, if something we've discussed here comes back to someone's memory when he or she is weak and tempted, and STRENGTHENS them so that they endure, then the whole discussion has been a complete success. So too if we sharpen each other, even if we disagree on some things. And no two people in the world will agree on everything!

God bless.

:-)

I know I'm going to spend some more time in the word because of this discussion. I also try and live in him as best I can as we are directed. I see no reason we are not brothers. God Bless

[Gadgeteer]

I know I'm going to spend some more time in the word because of this discussion. I also try and live in him as best I can as we are directed. I see no reason we are not brothers. God Bless

I'm honored by your words! Spending more time in the Word is always a good thing. I can link you to that "whole-letter-of-Hebrews" post I did, if you wish.

There's always another thing happening when two professing Christians speak, especially publicly. Jesus Himself is on trial --- what the world knows of Him they know from us, for we are ambassadors for Him. 2Cor5:20. May they always see enough of Him between our words, that they want what we have. You and I have upheld that, and I know He's honored by you.

God bless you.

:-)

[Michae]

I think what helps believers in their understanding is seeing the two natures. The Adamic nature and the nature of God, we are dependent upon a nature we do what we do by our nature. The Adamic nature is crucified in Christ, 2nd Cor. 5:14, but if you look at, Romans 7:1-2, it is a picture of the soul and spirit relationship. Point being we could not get free from our original nature it had to die.

Romans 7 can be to you the believer the most powerful of revelations you will ever recieve apart from Christ in you, Gal. 1:15-16. So with some kind of understanding relook at an individual that habitualy lives in sin, he she is still controlled in soul-mind to believe that it is them alone that is performing the actions of sin. We simply are partakers, responsible yes but Paul use's the phase "it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me".

Ok, you see the nature there, come on bible students look at how wonderful our Father is useing these simple writing to bring out for the first time in human history that mankind has a nature and they are dependent on that nature or they will do the bidding of that nature, glory to God that excites me. He is letting the cat out of the bag so to say, He is showing us what has caused the hurt the pain the misery of all humanity of all times, He is revealing what has never been revealed before and Paul expounds on it over and over, Amen.