Once saved, always saved?

[Slug1]

James and Paul must agree we are saved by grace apart from works. The blood of Christ must be wholly sufficient to redeem our souls from sin. The eternal nature of Christs blood atones for all our sin 100%.

Jude 1...to them that are sanctified by God and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Jude 24...Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling...

Will you agree that Gods grace and the blood of Christ are wholly sufficient to save a sinner from his sin? Is there more that must be added to the blood of Christ or the grace of God? Let's not banter about with parables that can be misunderstood but let's get right down to the essence of how we are saved. From there is is evident that one who is saved by grace and has his sins atoned by the eternal sacrifce of Christ blood can not lose his salvation. When we accept that salvation is a gift then it cannot be seen as a reward for running a race. Sound doctrine must be rooted in Jesus Christ. All teaching about faithfulness is sanctification must be seen from the perspective of Christ blood as saving completely. Only then can you arrive at the correct conclusions from scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm not the only one pointing out scripture and pointing out meaning.

I'll wait till you address the scripture I pointed out... until you tell us what the James 5:19 scripture means it's difficult to discuss that scripture.

First you have to establish if you agree with the Word of God and that the people who James is talking to and he calls, "brethren" are people in the Body of Christ, or just people off the street listening.

Lets begin there...

[notuptome]

No one is suggesting that; the gift is grace, but it is faith that receives the gift, and abides in it...

Faith is received by hearing Gods word. Rom 10:17

Salvation is always "men DOING something" --- as Jesus said in Matt7:25-27,
"He who hears My words and DOES them (believes!), is as a wise man who...
He who hears My words and DOES NOT do them (does not believe), is as a foolish man who..."

Paul write to the Ephesians 2:8-10 that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Man does nothing to be saved. Christ did it all. Christs blood and only Christs blood can atone fr our sins. We receive the benefit of Christs blood only by Gods grace and we are given eternal life not for reward but as a love gift from God.

It's not an unconditional "ARE PRESERVED"; verse 24 says He is able to keep us from stumbling --- but it's in the same breath that he says "build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love". What do you think Paul meant in 1Tim4:16 when he wrote the words, "save yourselves"? Clearly we do not save ourselves, and there is only one Savior; but Paul wrote those words. Why?

You are trying to obscure the point. We cannot save ourselves. We can only be saved by grace through faith. Only the blood of Christ can atone for our sins. Until you get this correct you cannot arrive at the correct conclusions in any biblical matter.

In Ezk18:31, he writes "make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit" --- you and I will agree that only GOD makes one's heart and spirit new; so why did Ezekiel write that? What do you think when you read those?
Really? Let's read another passage from James:

"Each is tempted when carried away by his own lust. When lust has conceived it gives birth to sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceived, BELOVED BRETHREN." James1:14-16

This also uses "thanatos", death with implication of eternity in Hell. Unless you accept a premise that "one can engage in lust and sin and not perish". Any way you can take "beloved brethren", and make this appearance mean "unsaved-brethren"?
On Ephesians 2:8, noted Bible commentator & Greek scholar (graduate-level professor for many years!) A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

Grace is the gift God gives, and we receive by faith; but as Romans1:17 asserts it's not just beginning faith but also ending faith. "Faith" is not a one-time-deal, but a daily choice. If we were saved perfectly without risk of falling, then please tell me how it's possible for us to still sin? We cannot erase 1Cor10:12-13.
In Hebrews10:29 is a man who was sanctified by Jesus' blood --- was that blood sufficient? Yes. Was the MAN sufficient? No! He began to walk in sins, therefore scorning the blood that once sanctified him, trampling Jesus and His gracious sacrifice for sins, and insulted the Spirit. Do you have any defense against this, towards "OSAS"?

What about Hebrews12? Can you deny that "becoming un-born" is clearly in view?
"SHALL we not rather be in submission to God's discipline, AND LIVE?"

How is that not a constant choice? How is it not speaking of "live eternally"?
Unless he becomes unborn, because of unbelief. What verse in Jude?


I've asked some pointed questions and given you some specific verses. Nothing says you have to answer, but understand that if any of us just shrug off verses and ignore citations, our credibility suffers. I look forward to your thoughts.

You have not asked anything of merit. (sorry) You have gone over the river and through the woods to avoid the basic question of whether it is the blood of Christ and grace of God that completely saves us. By grace we are made the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21 Can man improve upon the righteousness of God?

What do you suggest Christ left undone in the matter of salvation? What can you or I offer to perfect the work of redemption the Christ fulfilled? If we cannot agree on the blood of Christ and the grace of God we cannot hope to agree on all the peripheral matters.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Gadgeteer]

I agree... we have the Parable of the Sower that explains to use exactly what happens to those who endure no more and who become unfruitful.

Right. And it's critical to understand these passages, with clear connections to other Scriptures.

Look at connections we've made:
•· Luke8:13-15 (good soil, rocky soil) connects to Heb6:7-8 (one soil can produce EITHER)
•· 1Cor5:5 connects to 1Tim1:20, "repentance" is absolutely present.
•· Jn10:28 connects to John10:9 and Acts20:28-30; real sheep are at real risk.
•· 1Cor9:25-27 connects (by "adokimos") with 2Cor13:5, and Paul's salvation was fallible!
•· 1Jn5:11-13 ("he who has Jesus has eternal life") connects to 2Jn1:7-9 (we can be deceived away from Jesus)

And John3:3 connects to Hebrews12:7-9; we cannot go to Heaven without being "born-again" (or born from above, or born/begotten of God) --- but a person can stop being "born-of-God begotten sons". That ruins all three views of OSAS.

So you are saying that a person who has accepted Jesus, was once enduing and was once being fruitful and then turns away to error and endures no more or becomes unfruitful and is facing death... still lives eternally with Jesus in the end?

This is "Antinomianism". OSAS #2 ("Eternal Security") asserts that if one turns away, he was never REALLY saved in the FIRST place. Your reference to the Soils is well taken --- is there any difference between the beginning of those in Lk8:13, and those in Lk8:15? The thirteeners believed with JOY. On what basis were they "never really saved"?

OSAS #3 ("Calvinism") does not answer how one can even think of believing (let alone joyfully), without monergistic regeneration.

If this was the TRUTH of God, then why WARN us to turn AWAY from death?

I can speak for this; they say it's "hyperbole, mere effective means by which God KEEPS us saved". The existence of the warning (supposedly) serves to cause the guarantee of perseverance.

You are saying it doesn't matter... that is dangerous because some who have accepted Christ will read what you wrote and decide that their double-mindedness is OK.

The Word of God has nothing good to say about being double-minded... ONLY a person who IS a Christian CAN BE double-minded and the Word of God has nothing good to say about being like that... "luke warm" is another condition of being "IN ERROR AND FACING DEATH" and the Bible has nothing good to say about that either.

Amen. And that's the precise warning Peter issued in 2:1:5-11; not "make your MINDS sure about your GUARANTEED salvation", but make salvation itself steadfast.

Yet, you just said... it's OK and a person who has turned away to error (a form of being double-minded/being luke warm) has nothing to worry about and will be eternally with Jesus.

"Backslidden-but-saved". Or to quote someone else,
"you won't really die."

That is a VERY dangerous message to speak to others.

The risk we have of deception away from Jesus, Paul says is the same risk as Eve faced in the Garden! Can any of us read 2Cor11:3 and not have our complacency shaken?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, YOUR minds should ALSO be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ!"

That should be a major "yikes!", not some kind of "Oh it has no teeth, we can be led astray but are still SAVED..."

[notuptome]

I'm not the only one pointing out scripture and pointing out what it means... all you are doing is pointing out scripture and pointing out what the OSAS doctrine says it means.

I'll wait till you address the scripture I pointed out... until you tell us what the James 5:19 scripture means it's difficult to discuss that scripture.

First you have to establish if you agree that the people who James is talking to and he calls, "brethren" are people in the Body of Christ, or just people off the street listening.

Lets begin there...

That passage in James 5 has nothing to do with eternal security of the believer. James in this case is speaking of Jews who are not saved and not Christians. Christians are not referred to as sinners except in the past tense. Eph 5:8 "once darkness". 1 Cor 6:9-11

What I am trying to convey to you is that you cannot apply a universal meaning to the word brethren in scripture. Context determines whom is being addressed by the term. But again that is a distraction to avoid the basic truth that it is the blood of Christ and the grace of God that saves completely and nothing else. Works cannot save a man. We are to be zealous of good works but they do not save us or make us more saved. Good works glorify God but they are an outflow from salvation not an inflow to make us saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Lone Arranger]

James and Paul must agree we are saved by grace apart from works. The blood of Christ must be wholly sufficient to redeem our souls from sin. The eternal nature of Christs blood atones for all our sin 100%.

Jude 1...to them that are sanctified by God and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Jude 24...Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling...

Will you agree that Gods grace and the blood of Christ are wholly sufficient to save a sinner from his sin? Is there more that must be added to the blood of Christ or the grace of God? Let's not banter about with parables that can be misunderstood but let's get right down to the essence of how we are saved. From there is is evident that one who is saved by grace and has his sins atoned by the eternal sacrifce of Christ blood can not lose his salvation. When we accept that salvation is a gift then it cannot be seen as a reward for running a race. Sound doctrine must be rooted in Jesus Christ. All teaching about faithfulness is sanctification must be seen from the perspective of Christ blood as saving completely. Only then can you arrive at the correct conclusions from scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I'm glad someone here understands what salvation is about.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

Now consider, 1 John 3:4, "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." So if Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes, i.e. a Christian, then a Christian cannot sin according to Romans 10:4.

Here's the section of scripture in context: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (note, it is belief not works that results in righteousness), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for 'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" Romans 10:4-13

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace," Galatians 5:4.

To sum up, sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4); and, since Christ is the end of the law to those who believe (Romans 10:4) a Christian believer cannot sin; and, if you are depending on keeping the law to be justified you have fallen away from grace!

[Gadgeteer]

Faith is received by hearing God's word. Rom 10:17

Roger, faith is not received, at all; faith COMES by hearing, and it comes other ways. Consider:

"From childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Jesus..." 2Tim3:15

Faith comes from conviction/wisdom in Paul's words. Faith is the consequence of persuasion in Acts26:28-29, and John20:31.

Paul writes to the Ephesians 2:8-10 that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Man does nothing to be saved.

Oh yes we do. We receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness, Rom5:17. We believe and receive Christ, Jn1:12. We do what Jesus commands John15:14. We DO Jesus' words, Matt7:24-27!

Christ did it all.

Christ did all the WORK of salvation; and our believing is God's work --- that we work, Jn6:27-29! Jesus did not say "the word will be done for you", Jesus said "Do not work for food that perishes but WORK for food that endures to eternal life".

We work the work-of-God, by believing.

Christ's blood and only Christ's blood can atone for our sins.

Then answer how the man in Heb10:29 was sanctified by Jesus' blood but ceased to be.

We receive the benefit of Christ's blood only by God's grace and we are given eternal life not for reward but as a love gift from God.

It's given, through our faith.
"Receive as the OUTCOME OF YOUR FAITH salvation." 1Pet1:9.

You are trying to obscure the point. We cannot save ourselves.

So you just scratch out Paul's words? We "save ourselves", in that we participate in salvation by our faith.

We can only be saved by grace through faith. Only the blood of Christ can atone for our sins. Until you get this correct you cannot arrive at the correct conclusions in any biblical matter.

I do not disagree with this; I disagree with your perception that "faith is a gift".

"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe He IS (must come BY faith), and that He is a rewarder of those WHO SEEK Him." Heb11:6.

Those who seek; not "those to whom God has GIFTED faith".

You have not asked anything of merit. (sorry) You have gone over the river and through the woods to avoid the basic question of whether it is the blood of Christ and grace of God that completely saves us. By grace we are made the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21 Can man improve upon the righteousness of God?

Then answer 2Cor5:20: "BE reconciled to God".

It's the same message in Eph5:18, "be filled with the Spirit", in Rom12:2 "do not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind", in Eph4:22-24 "lay aside the old man and put on the new man, be renewed in the spirit of your mind".

You see, Roger, faith is a conscious choice; and it's not just one time, but constantly. "BE reconciled". "BE filled with the Spirit". "BE regenerated". Not something that fits any part of any OSAS.

What do you suggest Christ left undone in the matter of salvation?

Then answer me this, and I'll better understand you --- what did Jesus mean in Matt9:12-13?

"It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Why did He say that, and what did He expect to happen after He spoke?

What can you or I offer to perfect the work of redemption the Christ fulfilled? If we cannot agree on the blood of Christ and the grace of God we cannot hope to agree on all the peripheral matters.

I answered what you said --- you have not yet interacted with what I said, nor with the Scriptures we have cited to you. For instance --- how was the guy in Heb10:29 once "sanctified by Jesus' blood", and where is he now?

I'll wait till you address the scripture I pointed out... until you tell us what the James 5:19 scripture means it's difficult to discuss that scripture.

First you have to establish if you agree with the Word of God and that the people who James is talking to and he calls, "brethren" are people in the Body of Christ, or just people off the street listening.

I added to Slug's quote James1:14-16; can "beloved-brethren" ever mean "UNSAVED"? That passage also uses "thanatos", same as 5:20; did he mean "eternal death"?

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on what these verses mean to you, Roger.

[Gadgeteer]

To sum up, sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4); and, since Christ is the end of the law to those who believe (Romans 10:4) a Christian believer cannot sin;

What does that mean to you? Clearly we do sin:

"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us; if we confess our sins (repent!) He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and forgive us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:8-9.

1Cor10:12-13 states that God gives us a gracious escape from temptation, but it's up to us to take it or not.

So, what are you perceiving? Do you think God DECLARES us sinless, in the FACE of our sin? That somehow 1Cor6:9-11 doesn't apply to us, nor does Eph5:5-6, or Gal5:19-21? Each of those passages say "the immoral/drunkards/carousers/perverse SHALL NOT INHERIT". 1Jn1:6 "If we say we have fellowship with Him but walk in the darkness (sin!), we lie and do not practice the truth." Do you accept that "salvation" is fellowship with Christ, and thus we cannot walk in sin?

Do you recognize that when 2Cor5:21 says "...we might become the righteousness of God" that we are to BE righteous? Or do you perceive it's a whitewash on top of our sins? Or is there a change that occurs in the hearts of those who follow Him?

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace," Galatians 5:4.

What does this verse say to you? These people are begun in the Spirit (3:3), they are KNOWN by God (4:9), they are running well and obeying the truth (5:7).

Can they be viewed as "never-were-saved"? What does "fallen-away-from-grace" mean to you?

[Slug1]

That passage in James 5 has nothing to do with eternal security of the believer. James in this case is speaking of Jews who are not saved and not Christians.

So you are stating that the use of the word "brethren" in the context of the Book of James... is that James is NOT talking to people who have accepted Christ and that his audience are people who are NOT in the Body of Christ?

Is this what you are establishing that the Word of God means concerning the context of the Book of James and the "brethren" are NOT in Christ?

If this is so... then can you point out what scripture(s) in the Book of James shows you that he is not talking to the Body of Christ who are people who've accepted Christ?

Let's go back and begin there then... with the scriptures you will point out to us all that show us that James in NOT speaking to Christians who have accepted Christ.

[notuptome]

So you are stating that the use of the word "brethren" in the context of the Book of James... is that James is NOT talking to people who have accepted Christ and that his audience are people who are NOT in the Body of Christ?

Is this what you are establishing that the Word of God means concerning the context of the Book of James and the "brethren" are NOT in Christ?

If this is so... then can you point out what scripture(s) in the Book of James shows you that he is not talking to the Body of Christ who are people who've accepted Christ?

Let's go back and begin there then... with the scriptures you will point out to us all that show us that James in NOT speaking to Christians who have accepted Christ.

Why is this so difficult for you? I did not say the entire book of James but this particular verse.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Gadgeteer]

Why is this so difficult for you? I did not say the entire book of James but this particular verse.

In James 5:19, "brethren" in the Greek is "adelphos".

In James1:16, "beloved brethren" is "agapētos adelphos".

Question: in James1:16, is he talking about saved, or unsaved "beloved brethren"?

[Slug1]

Why is this so difficult for you? I did not say the entire book of James but this particular verse.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

OK... what scripture points out to you that verse 5:19 is not addressing people who have accepted Christ.

Is this gonna be another question you'll never want to answer no matter HOW the question is asked??

You know the deal... just be honest and tell me that you will not want to answer the question.

[Butch5]

Roger, I'm glad someone here understands what salvation is about.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

Now consider, 1 John 3:4, "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." So if Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes, i.e. a Christian, then a Christian cannot sin according to Romans 10:4.

Here's the section of scripture in context: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (note, it is belief not works that results in righteousness), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for 'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" Romans 10:4-13

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace," Galatians 5:4.

To sum up, sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4); and, since Christ is the end of the law to those who believe (Romans 10:4) a Christian believer cannot sin; and, if you are depending on keeping the law to be justified [U]you have fallen away from grace![/U]

Hi Lone,

Here's something to consider, Pauls statement about the Law was speaking of the Mosaic Law and was in reference to the Jews. Consider Paul's words,

Romans 2:14(KJV)
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

According to Paul the Gentiles did not have teh Law. In addition to that the Law ended when the New Covenant began.

[Gadgeteer]

I assume that most people have the "default page setting", so that we're on the top of a new page; I'd like this post not to get lost (seeing as it's at the bottom of the previous page).

Why is this so difficult for you? I did not say the entire book of James but this particular verse.

In James 5:19, "brethren" in the Greek is "adelphos".

In James1:16, "beloved brethren" is "agapētos adelphos".

Question: in James1:16, is he talking about saved, or unsaved "beloved brethren"?

You've said that James5:19 is not talking about "saved brethren", Roger. You said it's "unsaved brethren". What about James1:16? Is it also "unsaved brethren"?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

:-)

[Butch5]

This verse doesn't refer to spiritual death, loss of salvation, but physical death. The word translated soul here is psychē, often meaning physical death as in Mathew 10:39, "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

We see this penalty of physical death for in the life of a Christian in 1 Corinthians 5:5, "...hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." If a Christian stubbornly continues in sin God may deliver him over to physical death to save his spirit.

The purpose of the handing over to Satan is to bring about repentance before it is to late. Paul is calling this church to repentance for the sins they are committing. We know that the flesh is a reference to the sinful nautre, Paul uses the term this way repeatedly, so the destruction of the flesh is more likely the destruction of the sinful nature not the man's physical death. We know that the destruction of hte flesh is a willfil act on the part of the believer as Paul makes clear in Romans.

Romans 6:11-13(KJV)
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Romans 8:1(KJV)
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Butch5]

I know you better than that Butch. The blood of Christ is no straw man nor is the grace of God only able to start us on the path to salvation. There is no other way to be saved than the blood of Christ and the grace of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This too is a straw man. Seriously Roger, why not address the real issue?