Once saved, always saved?

[soft]

sorry ya'll, I've not read any of the posts up to this point. I've been through both sides of the argument many times before.

I take the position that there is no once saved always saved. I'm sure people here, who also take that position, have done a fine job of presenting the scriptural evidence of that.

However, what I've never understood is WHY people believe that they cannot lose their salvation. I understand they have proof texts and such things, but, doesn't it sound a bit odd that people so strongly support an idea that, no matter how bad they may get, they are UNABLE to lose their salvation?

[Gadgeteer]

sorry ya'll, I've not read any of the posts up to this point. I've been through both sides of the argument many times before.

I take the position that there is no once saved always saved. I'm sure people here, who also take that position, have done a fine job of presenting the scriptural evidence of that.

However, what I've never understood is WHY people believe that they cannot lose their salvation. I understand they have proof texts and such things, but, doesn't it sound a bit odd that people so strongly support an idea that, no matter how bad they may get, they are UNABLE to lose their salvation?

Hi, "Soft"! There are various reasons people believe "you cannot forfeit salvation".

Calvinists view "saving-faith", as a gift from God (misunderstanding "that" in Eph2:8); and per Rom11:29, "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". Also, Philip1:29 and 2Tim2:15 are misunderstood (thinking it is God "exclusively granting repentance and belief to a few" --- failing to realize that faith and repentance flow in direction from MEN towards GOD, not from God towards men).

"Eternal Security" proponents (distinguished from Calvinism/Predestined-Salvation) perceive that either a person is too changed TO disbelieve, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy.

There is only one other OSAS view, "Antinomianism/Gnosticism", which views the flesh as corrupt/sinful though the SPIRIT is saved (so it doesn't matter what you do!). This is also called "Backslidden-but-saved"; as such the "B-B-S" position is sometimes asserted by Calvinists and ES proponents, not realizing they are embracing Gnosticism.

All views of OSAS espouse "if they fall, then they were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". The catch-22.


I agree with you; faith is our choice, from beginning faith to ending faith (Rom1:17!); it is the outcome of our faith by which we're saved (1Pet1:9), our perseverance saves our souls (1Tim4:16, Lk21:19).

[salesman]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance. The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned. To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away. From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you. In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

[notuptome]

Try reading what Jude wrote. Jude opens his letter with to them that are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ, called. vs1 Jude closes his letter with now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. vs 24

Salvation is by grace not by merit. Only He Who saved can keep you saved. If you can lose your salvation or walk away from your salvation, well that is not the way God gives gifts.

None are ever good enough to merit salvation and none are ever bad enough that grace cannot save them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Gadgeteer]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance.

Hi, Salesman! Excellent post!

I can make your position stronger; not I, but Scripture. First, we must establish that saving-faith comes from MEN (which God receives), it is not a gift from God that flows in direction from God-towards-men. This is clear in Heb11:6, 1Pet1:9, and many other verses. Second, we establish that "faith" is not just a one-time-deal, but it's a constant daily choice. Please read Col2:6-8, where we're told:
"As you have received Christ, so walk in Him, firmly rooted and now being built up in faith ...see that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Faith is our choice, which is walking-in-Christ, and we are to guard ourselves against deceivers.

The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned.

Note well that Jesus said "Any branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away..."

The idea of "IN CHRIST", ruins the idea that "those who are cut off were never really saved in the first place".

To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away.

Hah hah hah --- we think alike, and like Scripture. :-)

Now --- please see the warning in 2Cor13:5; we are to test ourselves, to examine ourselves (by looking at out fruit! See 2Pet1:5-11!!!); we are IN CHRIST, unless we "fail the test".

Recognize the connection between "adokimos" (fail-the-test, be unapproved/disaqualified) in 2Cor13:5, and "adokimos" in 1Cor9:25-27; we are to race so as to WIN (the immortal crown!), and even PAUL could, after having preached to others, be disqualified/unapproved/fail-the-test!

From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you.

That's a very apt comparison; I didn't really think of that parable in terms of "fall-from-salvation" before.

In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

The key to the whole discussion, is "CHRIST IN YOU". We do not do good works to BE saved, we do good works because we ARE saved, because salvation is "Christ in you". That is what James meant in chapter 2, "That faith (which produces no good works) can NOT save you, can it!" It is the same thing Jesus said in Matt7:16-19, no good tree can produce bad fruit (works!), and no bad tree can produce good fruit (works!). So when Revelation20:12-13 says we are judged according to our deeds, good deeds never save anyone and evil deeds never condemn anyone; but the heart that DOES good deeds exposes itself as "saved" by good deeds, and evil deeds expose a heart that did not know Jesus.

More on this next post; but I commend you on an excellent post!!!

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Try reading what Jude wrote. Jude opens his letter with to them that are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ, called. vs1 Jude closes his letter with now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. vs 24

Hi, Roger! :-)

What do you think of Jude20-21? We are to "build ourselves in holy faith", and "keep ourselves in His love". That's a whole lotta participation, isn't it?

Do you know about all the warnings against deceivers, and "being taken away from Jesus" is fully in view? Previous post we discussed Col2:6-8; please look at 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and 2Pet3:17. Please also look at Heb3:12-14 and James1:14-16 --- sin can deceive us away from salvation. Now, 2Tim4:1, and 2Cor11:3 --- bad-angels can deceive us away from Christ. Do you accept that 2Cor11:3 asserts we are in the same danger of deception, as Eve was?

Salvation is by grace not by merit. Only He Who saved can keep you saved. If you can lose your salvation or walk away from your salvation, well that is not the way God gives gifts.

Please review Eph2:8 --- note the word, "THAT", does not refer to "faith", but to the whole gift of salvation, "By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved". New American Standard footnotes "that", as "that salvation". That salvation by grace, that salvation through faith, that salvation not of yourselves, that salvation gift of God, that salvation not by works. Make sense?

Peter says "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation". Jesus says similar in Lk21:19, and Paul echoes that our own perseverance saves us in 1Tim4:16.

Do you accept that "saving-faith" (as distinguished from the kind of faith in Rom12:3, and the kind in 1Cor12:9), is a choice each man makes? This is the only way Acts10:34-35 makes sense, where God welcomes (receives!) those WHO revere Him and pursue righteousness; the same thought as in Heb11:6.

None are ever good enough to merit salvation and none are ever bad enough that grace cannot save them.

"Saving-faith" is not merit; it is conviction of one's own sinfulness and worthlessness --- it is broken and humbled, it is as far away from "merit/pride" as can get. It is throwing oneself down at Christ's feet broken and worthy of the flames of Hell and IMPLORING that Jesus save us from the fire, from our sins, from our inescapable peril. It is receiving His perfect gift of grace, wrought in full and sufficiency from the Cross.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I look forward with eagerness at your thoughts to this post, and the verses we've discussed; you are also cordially invited to respond to the previous post to Salesman.

Also, please consider 2Pet1:5-11, mentioned but not yet discussed.

Peter calls for us to "SUPPLY IN our faith" (not "add to faith", the fruits are not optional!) --- fruits like moral excellence, godliness, self-control, kindness and love. Then Peter says the one who LACKS these fruits has ...forgotten former purification from sins! There's no way to be purified except through Christ, so this "bad-example" is a man who FELL FROM SALVATION!

Against that bad-example, Peter says "Therefore be diligent to make your calling and election BEBAIOS-SURE/STEADFAST" (make our SALVATION firm, not make our MINDS firm about our God-guaranteed-salvation!).

What is the consequence of the call for our diligence? "So that the eisodos-gates-of-Heaven will be (abundantly) provided to you."

"Abundantly" is parenthetical, for there are not two entrances; there is either "abundant", or not-at-all!

What do you think Peter meant? And what do you think these other verses we've discussed mean?

:-)

[Diggindeeper]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance. The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned. To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away. From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you. In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

I agree 110%! I just cannot see how some on this board can see our walk, our race, our journey, "the good fight" and even obedience as works. I'm with you. To see this any other way, one must simply disregard too many scriptures. Salvation is indeed NOT the DESTINATION, but it is our JOURNEY! We would fail to finish at our own peril.

Good post, salesman!

[mailmandan]

I agree 110%! I just cannot see how some on this board can see our walk, our race, our journey, "the good fight" and even obedience as works. I'm with you. To see this any other way, one must simply disregard too many scriptures. Salvation is indeed NOT the DESTINATION, but it is our JOURNEY! We would fail to finish at our own peril.

Good post, salesman!

Just curious, if obedience is not works then what is it? Do works get accomplished or not get accomplished when we are obedient? We are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) If we are walking in good works, isn't that obedience?

[mailmandan]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance. The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned. To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away. From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you. In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but is a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith that stopped producing works, but only against an "empty profession of faith" that produces NO works. When James says that faith without works is dead, he does not mean that we are saved "by" works. Our salvation is neither attained or maintained by our works. James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. SHOW me your (alledged) faith without your works and I will SHOW you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). SHOW, not establish or maintain. Big difference. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but not the essence of saving faith and not the means of our salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not on the merits of our works. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works.

In regards to John 15, when Jesus spoke these words "in Me," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the vine. How could it mean "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established? A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the New Covenant is to be saved (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the vine, but not abiding in the vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be saved. Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, (in Me - in the vine) he did not bear fruit or abide in the vine because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 70, 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. The fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are removed. Notice that Jesus mentions branches that produce NO fruit and branches that produce fruit (John 15:2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit. Same with James.

In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins took no oil with them and were unprepared from the start. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. Ephesians 2:10 does not teach that our salvation is maintained by good works. Created in Christ Jesus unto or for good works, which God hath before ordained that we "should walk in them" does not equate to "must walk in them to maintain our salvation." We are saved for good works, not by good works. We are not in a race to either attain or maintain our salvation by works. In 1 Corinthians 9:18-27, Paul mentions "what is my reward," "the prize," and an "imperishable crown." There will be rewards received and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ for those who are saved. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Nothing mentioned there about loss of salvation. Is the prize the same thing as the gift of God? (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) There is a difference between a prize and a free gift. There are multiple crowns mentioned in Scripture. If Paul was worried about being disqualified from receiving eternal life, then why did he say, "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness (not the only crown mentioned in Scripture), which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (not might or might not)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Paul does not indicate any insecurity about his salvation.

I have a friend who believes that it's possible for a genuine Christian to lose their salvation, but he believes that you would have to walk away from the Lord and remain that way, so basically you would be throwing your salvation in the trash by choosing to completely reject Him after you have been saved. I never hear him say that our salvation is "maintained" by our works. If we are trying to obtain or maintain our salvation status based on our performance, then we have yet to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) If you are a genuine believer who believes that it's possible to lose your salvation by throwing it in the trash, then go ahead and believe that if you like, but my concern is for people who believe that it's possible to lose your salvation who are not even saved in the first place and they are basing their salvation on their performance "works salvation" instead of Christ's finished work of redemption. If someone believes that our salvation is based on our works then they will naturally believe that our salvation is also maintained by our works as well. People can argue all day long about whether or not it's possible for a genuine born again Christian to lose their salvation, but what is more important, HOW ARE WE REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH?

[episkopos]

Just curious, if obedience is not works then what is it? Do works get accomplished or not get accomplished when we are obedient? We are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) If we are walking in good works, isn't that obedience?

Obedience IS faith! "If you love Me obey my commandments!"

[episkopos]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but is a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith that stopped producing works, but only against an "empty profession of faith" that produces NO works. When James says that faith without works is dead, he does not mean that we are saved "by" works. Our salvation is neither attained or maintained by our works. James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. SHOW me your (alledged) faith without your works and I will SHOW you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). SHOW, not establish or maintain. Big difference. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but not the essence of saving faith and not the means of our salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not on the merits of our works. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works.

In regards to John 15, when Jesus spoke these words "in Me," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the vine. How could it mean "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established? A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the New Covenant is to be saved (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the vine, but not abiding in the vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be saved. Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, (in Me - in the vine) he did not bear fruit or abide in the vine because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 70, 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. The fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are removed. Notice that Jesus mentions branches that produce NO fruit and branches that produce fruit (John 15:2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit. Same with James.

In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins took no oil with them and were unprepared from the start. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. Ephesians 2:10 does not teach that our salvation is maintained by good works. Created in Christ Jesus unto or for good works, which God hath before ordained that we "should walk in them" does not equate to "must walk in them to maintain our salvation." We are saved for good works, not by good works. We are not in a race to either attain or maintain our salvation by works. In 1 Corinthians 9:18-27, Paul mentions "what is my reward," "the prize," and an "imperishable crown." There will be rewards received and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ for those who are saved. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Nothing mentioned there about loss of salvation. Is the prize the same thing as the gift of God? (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) There is a difference between a prize and a free gift. There are multiple crowns mentioned in Scripture. If Paul was worried about being disqualified from receiving eternal life, then why did he say, "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness (not the only crown mentioned in Scripture), which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (not might or might not)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Paul does not indicate any insecurity about his salvation.

I have a friend who believes that it's possible for a genuine Christian to lose their salvation, but he believes that you would have to walk away from the Lord and remain that way, so basically you would be throwing your salvation in the trash by choosing to completely reject Him after you have been saved. I never hear him say that our salvation is "maintained" by our works. If we are trying to obtain or maintain our salvation status based on our performance, then we have yet to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) If you are a genuine believer who believes that it's possible to lose your salvation by throwing it in the trash, then go ahead and believe that if you like, but my concern is for people who believe that it's possible to lose your salvation who are not even saved in the first place and they are basing their salvation on their performance "works salvation" instead of Christ's finished work of redemption. If someone believes that our salvation is based on our works then they will naturally believe that our salvation is also maintained by our works as well. People can argue all day long about whether or not it's possible for a genuine born again Christian to lose their salvation, but what is more important, HOW ARE WE REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH?

It is snobby to the extreme to reason that one who loses a race was never really a runner to begin with. Kicking someone when they are down is the mark of a bad character. Rather, many are called but few will be chosen. Many begin the race but few can finish it.

I think the spin doctors are at work with the Matt 25 parable. The fact is that there are 10 VIRGINS....not 5 virgins and five adulterers. Not 5 virgins and five harlots. These 10 were the same except the wise 5 actually put into practice what they had been given. They used the tools they were given. They used the MEANS to their proper function. Compare this with the parable of the men who built on a rock or on sand. Blessed is he who hears (receives) and DOES what he is commanded. For not hearers but doers are justified.

You simply must understand that works are not obedience. What Paul means by works are works of the law done in one's own strength apart from the reality of grace. Who is in control? That is the difference!

[episkopos]

When I was a new Christian, I believed that any effort to be nice or good by my own effort was to be seeking to be justified by works rather than grace. So I was rude and nasty in order to uphold this standard I thought I was bravely defending. When I was in the Spirit...what a contrast! So I made sure that everyone knew when I was in the Spirit! I was literally sinning more so that grace would abound the more.

It is akin to a Christian friend who came out to a bar where our Christian band was playing. In order to help us secure a longer stay at that club he drank more thus inflating the sales and therefore our desirability to the owner. He got royally pasted so we had to carry him home. So he sinned more so that the message would go out more.

But this is the height of immaturity.

Even a child is known by his character. Even a pet is known by it's character. So we need to make EVERY effort to do what is right. It will take everything we have PLUS the help of God to maintain a righteous stance in the world.

Those who will not add obedience to the mix are like spiritual schizophrenics. Others see what we really are even if we are unknown to ourselves.

[Eyelog]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance. The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned. To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away. From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you. In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

Before I saw this comment o fyours, I saw your comment to the article on the homepage by Project Peter. You intrigue me, bro.

I made a comment on your blog post, and it refers you to my comment to Soft in the "why doesn't god take away our desire to sin" thread under Growing in Christ.

I recommend my post #8 under that thread to you and anyone who likes to [B]think[/B] about what they learn from the Lord.

ps. I'm digging that Avatar, man, for lots of reasons.

[episkopos]

James asks us in 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (kjv) The Greek word there is "sozo" which my Strongs says means to save, rescue or deliver. He continues in vs. 19-20 "that the devils believe in God and tremble, but will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore it is my contention that you can reach the point of complete repentance, and faith in Christ. You can reach the point where you accept the freely given gift of salvation in the kingdom. And still, if you choose to do no works your faith can still become dead and keep you from attaining "sozo" or deliverance. The Bible tells us that Christ is the vine and we (Christians) are the branches. The branches that do not bear fruit will be cast away and thrown in the pile to be burned. To be one of the branches you had to have been in Christ. Therefore those in Christ that do not bear fruit can be cast away. From Matt. 25:1 we read the parable of the 10 virgins. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of the virgins answered the call, but then fell away. Is it not possible that this is a picture of salvation lost? They answered the call to the feast, but then chose to step away. The master of the feast then said I never knew you. In a different stream of thought; I always hear Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. But we often fail to read on to vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It seems that maintaining your salvation through works is a pre-ordained part of our walk with the Lord. The authors of the Bible often referred to salvation as a path, walk, race, journey, "the good fight". It is possible to fall off a path, or quit a race, or lose a fight. Therefore for these reasons I believe that you can lose your salvation.

Very good post!

[episkopos]

Hi, Roger! :-)

What do you think of Jude20-21? We are to "build ourselves in holy faith", and "keep ourselves in His love". That's a whole lotta participation, isn't it?

Do you know about all the warnings against deceivers, and "being taken away from Jesus" is fully in view? Previous post we discussed Col2:6-8; please look at 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and 2Pet3:17. Please also look at Heb3:12-14 and James1:14-16 --- sin can deceive us away from salvation. Now, 2Tim4:1, and 2Cor11:3 --- bad-angels can deceive us away from Christ. Do you accept that 2Cor11:3 asserts we are in the same danger of deception, as Eve was?
Please review Eph2:8 --- note the word, "THAT", does not refer to "faith", but to the whole gift of salvation, "By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved". New American Standard footnotes "that", as "that salvation". That salvation by grace, that salvation through faith, that salvation not of yourselves, that salvation gift of God, that salvation not by works. Make sense?

Peter says "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation". Jesus says similar in Lk21:19, and Paul echoes that our own perseverance saves us in 1Tim4:16.

Do you accept that "saving-faith" (as distinguished from the kind of faith in Rom12:2, and the kind in 1Cor12:9), is a choice each man makes? This is the only way Acts10:34-35 makes sense, where God welcomes (receives!) those WHO revere Him and pursue righteousness; the same thought as in Heb11:6.
"Saving-faith" is not merit; it is conviction of one's own sinfulness and worthlessness --- it is broken and humbled, it is as far away from "merit/pride" as can get. It is throwing oneself down at Christ's feet broken and worthy of the flames of Hell and IMPLORING that Jesus save us from the fire, from our sins, from our inescapable peril. It is receiving His perfect gift of grace, wrought in full and sufficiency from the Cross.
I look forward with eagerness at your thoughts to this post, and the verses we've discussed; you are also cordially invited to respond to the previous post to Salesman.

Also, please consider 2Pet1:5-11, mentioned but not yet discussed.

Peter calls for us to "SUPPLY IN our faith" (not "add to faith", the fruits are not optional!) --- fruits like moral excellence, godliness, self-control, kindness and love. Then Peter says the one who LACKS these fruits has ...forgotten former purification from sins! There's no way to be purified except through Christ, so this "bad-example" is a man who FELL FROM SALVATION!

Against that bad-example, Peter says "Therefore be diligent to make your calling and election BEBAIOS-SURE/STEADFAST" (make our SALVATION firm, not make our MINDS firm about our God-guaranteed-salvation!).

What is the consequence of the call for our diligence? "So that the eisodos-gates-of-Heaven will be (abundantly) provided to you."

"Abundantly" is parenthetical, for there are not two entrances; there is either "abundant", or not-at-all!

What do you think Peter meant? And what do you think these other verses we've discussed mean?

:-)

Excellent! I especially like the part I highlighted in red!