Once saved, always saved?

[episkopos]

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


G2716 (work out)
κατεργάζομαι
katergazomai
kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

[notuptome]

Is a man saved by grace or by works? Can any man add to the finished work of Christ? If we are made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21 how can we add to or make more righteous him to whom God has imputed His righteousness?

Is the work of Christ unfinished? How shall a flawed man make perfect that which the Son of God has completed?

Sanctification begins after salvation and is completed in glorification. Salvation is complete the moment it is received.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Eyelog]

When I was a new Christian, I believed that any effort to be nice or good by my own effort was to be seeking to be justified by works rather than grace. So I was rude and nasty in order to uphold this standard I thought I was bravely defending. When I was in the Spirit...what a contrast! So I made sure that everyone knew when I was in the Spirit! I was literally sinning more so that grace would abound the more.

It is akin to a Christian friend who came out to a bar where our Christian band was playing. In order to help us secure a longer stay at that club he drank more thus inflating the sales and therefore our desirability to the owner. He got royally pasted so we had to carry him home. So he sinned more so that the message would go out more.

But this is the height of immaturity.

Even a child is known by his character. Even a pet is known by it's character. So we need to make EVERY effort to do what is right. It will take everything we have PLUS the help of God to maintain a righteous stance in the world.

Those who will not add obedience to the mix are like spiritual schizophrenics. Others see what we really are even if we are unknown to ourselves.

Epi, you make me think of a few passages:

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Romans 5-6.

1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3.

Some stumble on the concepts that "No one who is born of God practices sin, ... he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Such lines prompted the holiness movement of the early 20th Century with its vestages still alive. Of course, our good friend John Wesley read those passages and was convicted. But Wesley did not go 'holiness crazy.' Instead, he devised a 'method' to do what John said we are obligated to do: "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 Jn 3:3.

As you readily point out, Epi, obedience is required to abide in christ. So many emphasize the so-called relationship to Christ by the Spirit, entering the throne room of God via the name of Christ, wanting to focus on receiving the filling of the Spirit as the sap in the vine, as we yield to Him, staying connected in prayer and in our daily devotions in the Word. But they forget the clear teaching in John 15 that to abide means to obey Christ's commands. You cannot abide if you do not obey, as John reiterates in 1 JN, above.

So, the key is, how does one who has their hope fixed on Christ "purify himself"?

Here is the rub, my friend.

I love the brethren. I don't kow if that comes out. I love Christ's body. I want nothing more than for each individual believer, and all believers together as His Body, to attain to the full stature of Christ. Ephesian 4. That is my heart, through and through. And I am waiting on the Lord, as He is revealing to me how to minister to the Body, who is without a shepherd for the practice of purification.

Why no shepherd?

Because few really understand how to purify themselves, that they would be able to obey, not practicing sin, able to maintain their abiding in Christ, able to not only obey because the Word has renewed their mind, not only able to obey because they walk by faith in His promises, and not only obey because they walk in the Spirit, moment to moment. There is more, my friend. There is more. it builds on these things, and it is entirely scriptural and entirely legitmatein the Lord, and it WORKS. Hence my #8 post in the thread, "why doesn't God remove our desire to sin" under the Christian Growth forum.

I'm not advertising for attention, friend. I am proclaiming from the roof tops. But Jesus did not throw pearls to swine, and he did not speak plainly all the time, but used figurative expressions and parables so that those who have no heart to hear will not be able to latch on and fake it, decry it, and trample it under foot on their way to trample the messenger.

This is why the ministry I call "Treasure Exchange" Ô Ó is an outreach to the remnant, who includes those humans, be they Jews or Gentiles:

Romans 9:25-33 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
²⁵ As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
²⁶ “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”
²⁷ Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; ²⁸ FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.” ²⁹ And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”
³⁰ What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; ³¹ but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. ³² Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, ³³ just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Zephaniah 3:12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD." Micah 4:7 “I will make the lame a remnant And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.

Ezekiel 6:7-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
⁷ The slain will fall among you, and you will know that I am the LORD. ⁸ “However, I will leave a remnant, for you will have those who escaped the sword among the nations when you are scattered among the countries. ⁹ Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations.

Jeremiah 6:
⁹ Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“They will thoroughly glean as the vine the remnant of Israel;
Pass your hand again like a grape gatherer
Over the branches.”
¹⁰ To whom shall I speak and give warning
That they may hear?
Behold, their ears are closed
And they cannot listen.
Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them;
They have no delight in it.
¹¹ But I am full of the wrath of the LORD;
I am weary with holding it in.
“Pour it out on the children in the street
And on the gathering of young men together;
For both husband and wife shall be taken,
The aged and the very old.
¹² “Their houses shall be turned over to others,
Their fields and their wives together;
For I will stretch out My hand
Against the inhabitants of the land,” declares the LORD.
¹³ “For from the least of them even to the greatest of them,
Everyone is greedy for gain,
And from the prophet even to the priest
Everyone deals falsely.
¹⁴ “They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
But there is no peace.
¹⁵ “Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done?
They were not even ashamed at all;
They did not even know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time that I punish them,
They shall be cast down,” says the LORD.
¹⁶ Thus says the LORD,
“Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it;
And you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’
¹⁷ “And I set watchmen over you, saying,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But they said, ‘We will not listen.’
¹⁸ “Therefore hear, O nations,
And know, O congregation, what is among them.
¹⁹ “Hear, O earth: behold, I am bringing disaster on this people,
The fruit of their plans,
Because they have not listened to My words,
And as for My law, they have rejected it also.
²⁰ “For what purpose does frankincense come to Me from Sheba
And the sweet cane from a distant land?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable
And your sacrifices are not pleasing to Me.”
²¹ Therefore, thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am laying stumbling blocks before this people.
And they will stumble against them,
Fathers and sons together;
Neighbor and friend will perish.”

[QUOTE]Isaiah 37:30-32New American Standard Bible (NASB) ³⁰ “Then this shall be the sign for you: you will eat this year what grows of itself, in the second year what springs from the same, and in the third year sow, reap, plant vineyards and eat their fruit. ³¹ The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward. ³² For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”’

Is 28:

⁵ In that day the LORD of hosts will become a beautiful crown
And a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people;
⁶ A spirit of justice for him who sits in judgment,
A strength to those who repel the onslaught at the gate.
... ⁹ “To whom would He teach knowledge,
And to whom would He interpret the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just taken from the breast?
¹⁰ “For He says,
‘Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there.’”
¹¹ Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
¹² He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
¹³ So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Isaiah 10:

²⁰ Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.²¹ A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Isaiah 8:

⁹ “Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered;
And give ear, all remote places of the earth.
Gird yourselves, yet be shattered;
Gird yourselves, yet be shattered.
¹⁰ “Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted;
State a proposal, but it will not stand,
For God is with us.”
¹¹ For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
¹² “You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
¹³“It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.
¹⁴ “Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
¹⁵ “Many will stumble over them,
Then they will fall and be broken;
They will even be snared and caught.”
¹⁶ Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. ¹⁷ And I will wait for the LORD who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob; I will even look eagerly for Him. ¹⁸ Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. ¹⁹ When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should theyconsult the dead on behalf of the living? ²⁰ To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. ²¹ They will pass through the land hard-pressed and famished, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will be enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. ²² Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Ezra 9:

But at the evening offering I arose from my humiliation, even with my garment and my robe torn, and I fell on my knees and stretched out my hands to the LORD my God; ⁶ and I said, “O my God, I am ashamed and embarrassed to lift up my face to You, my God, for our iniquities have risen above our heads and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. ⁷ Since the days of our fathers to this day we have been in great guilt, and on account of our iniquities we, our kings and our priests have been given into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity and to plunder and to open shame, as it is this day. ⁸ But now for a brief moment grace has been shown from the LORD our God, to leave us an escaped remnant and to give us a peg in His holy place, that our God may enlighten our eyes and grant us a little reviving in our bondage.⁹ For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not forsaken us, but has extended lovingkindness to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to raise up the house of our God, to restore its ruins and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem. ¹⁰ “Now, our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, ¹¹ which You have commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, ‘The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from end to end and with their impurity.¹² So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.’ ¹³ After all that has come upon us for our evil deeds and our great guilt, since You our God have requited us less than our iniquities deserve, and have given us an escaped remnant as this, ¹⁴ shall we again break Your commandments and intermarry with the peoples who commit these abominations? Would You not be angry with us to the point of destruction, until there is no remnant nor any who escape? ¹⁵ O LORD God of Israel, You are righteous, for we have been left an escaped remnant, as it is this day; behold, we are before You in our guilt, for no one can stand before You because of this.”

Some support for the proper understanding of remnant theology includes the following expository article, with which I fully concur:

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/0...nant-theology/ Excerpt: For a long time there has been an improper distinction between Israel and the Church. This error has been happened for two reasons: (1) People have rightly noticed the Bible’s distinction between Jew and Gentile, but then they erred in thinking that Israel equals Jew and Church equals Gentile. Both Israel and the Church contain both Jews and Gentiles, and the distinction between Jew and Gentile is not equivalent to a distinction between Israel and the Church.

(2) When speaking of the distinction between the Church and Israel, people have failed to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel. Remnant Israel is a spiritual body, national Israel is not.
Gentile believers are grafted into remnant Israel, whose holy root is the Messiah. Gentile believers have taken the place of Jews who have not believed, but Gentiles as a whole have not replaced Jews as a whole. Only part of Israel has been hardened (Romans 11:25). And God is able to graft Jews back into remnant Israel/the Church when they believe (Romans 11:23).

The proper understanding of Israel and the Church is not replacement theology nor separation theology.
The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Neither has the Church replaced remnant Israel. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous.
Therefore, the Church is not separate from remnant Israel. The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12). They have been grafted into the Church, an olive tree natural to Jewish people but unnatural to Gentiles. It is for this reason that Paul exhorts his Gentile readership not to be arrogant about their membership within the Church (Romans 11:20).

My point?

There is an even further level of specificty associated the identity of the Church at large as remnant Israel and the true Body of Christ as remnant Israel:

“Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. ²² You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. ²³ But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. ²⁴ God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4.

To obscure, esoteric and unexplained?

There are always my posts 8, 31, 33,42,45 and 47on the "why doesn't take our desire to sin away?" thread under growing in christ.

Loving you in the Lord, Epi.

[episkopos]

[QUOTE=Eyelog;2756255]Epi, you make me think of a few passages:





Some stumble on the concepts that "No one who is born of God practices sin, [SIZE=2]... he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Such lines prompted the holiness movement of the early 20th Century with its vestages still alive. Of course, our good friend John Wesley read those passages and was convicted. But Wesley did not go 'holiness crazy.' Instead, he devised a 'method' to do what John said we are obligated to do: "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 Jn 3:3.

As you readily point out, Epi, obedience is required to abide in christ. So many emphasize the so-called relationship to Christ by the Spirit, entering the throne room of God via the name of Christ, wanting to focus on receiving the filling of the Spirit as the sap in the vine, as we yield to Him, staying connected in prayer and in our daily devotions in the Word. But they forget the clear teaching in John 15 that to abide means to obey Christ's commands. You cannot abide if you do not obey, as John reiterates in 1 JN, above.

So, the key is, how does one who has their hope fixed on Christ "purify himself"?

Here is the rub, my friend.

I love the brethren. I don't kow if that comes out. I love Christ's body. I want nothing more than for each individual believer, and all believers together as His Body, to attain to the full stature of Christ. Ephesian 4. That is my heart, through and through. And I am waiting on the Lord, as He is revealing to me how to minister to the Body, who is without a shepherd for the practice of purification.

Why no shepherd?

Because few really understand how to purify themselves, that they would be able to obey, not practicing sin, able to maintain their abiding in Christ, able to not only obey because the Word has renewed their mind, not only able to obey because they walk by faith in His promises, and not only obey because they walk in the Spirit, moment to moment. There is more, my friend. There is more. it builds on these things, and it is entirely scriptural and entirely legitmatein the Lord, and it WORKS. Hence my #8 post in the thread, "why doesn't God remove our desire to sin" under the Christian Growth forum.

I'm not advertising for attention, friend. I am proclaiming from the roof tops. But Jesus did not throw pearls to swine, and he did not speak plainly all the time, but used figurative expressions and parables so that those who have no heart to hear will not be able to latch on and fake it, decry it, and trample it under foot on their way to trample the messenger.

This is why the ministry I call "Treasure Exchange" [FONT=Symbol][COLOR=#000000]Ô Ó is an outreach to the remnant, who includes those humans, be they Jews or Gentiles:

Isaiah 37:30-32New American Standard Bible (NASB) [SIZE=2]³⁰ “Then this shall be the sign for you: you will eat this year what grows of itself, in the second year what springs from the same, and in the third year sow, reap, plant vineyards and eat their fruit. ³¹ The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward. ³² For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”’

[COLOR=#222222]

[COLOR=#222222][SIZE=3][COLOR=#222222][SIZE=3]

Some support for the proper understanding of remnant theology includes the following expository article, with which I fully concur:




My point?

There is an even further level of specificty associated the identity of the Church at large as remnant Israel and the true Body of Christ as remnant Israel:



To obscure, esoteric and unexplained?

There are always my posts 8, 31, 33,42,45 and 47on the "why doesn't take our desire to sin away?" thread under growing in christ.

Loving you in the Lord, Epi.

I concur on all points with you! Your graciousness is very appreciated as well!

[Gadgeteer]

Just curious, if obedience is not works then what is it? Do works get accomplished or not get accomplished when we are obedient? We are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) If we are walking in good works, isn't that obedience?

Obedience IS faith! "If you love Me obey my commandments!"

Exactly right, "Episkopos". To believe savingly is to obey Jesus, is to receive Him, is to walk in Him, is to abide in Him and His teachings. As Jude says, "Keep yourselves in His love".

Dan, please read Heb5:9: "He is the source of salvation to all who obey Him". This connects directly to Rom6:17, we became obedient from the heart, which then connects to Rom10:9-10, "If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved; for with your heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."

Please review John6:27-29; Jesus said in verse 29 that believing is God's work, but in 25-28 it's clear that work is something WE work. Indeed, Jesus said:
"Do not work for food that perishes, but WORK for food that endures to eternal life".

You --- DO this! WORK for food that endures! Not "do works to be saved", but "do God's work by believing".

Zero "merit", 100% broken conviction and throwing ourselves worthless and meritless at Jesus' feet begging Him to save us.

Make sense?

[Gadgeteer]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but is a bare profession of faith.

You're right.

So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith that stopped producing works, but only against an "empty profession of faith" that produces NO works.

You're right again; actually, the "me-dunamai" construct is best translated
"That faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!"

When James says that faith without works is dead, he does not mean that we are saved "by" works. Our salvation is neither attained or maintained by our works. James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. SHOW me your (alledged) faith without your works and I will SHOW you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). SHOW, not establish or maintain. Big difference. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but not the essence of saving faith and not the means of our salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not on the merits of our works. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works.

Okay, fine so far; but whose faith is it? Does man have anything to do with that faith? Or is man a passive recipient of gifted faith, so that Eph2:8 really reads, "By grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved, and that is NOTHING of yourselves it is the gift of God"?

This is the question, who chooses the faith that saves. If MEN choose, then it's not a one-time choice, but it is as Romans1:17 conveys, from beginning faith to ending faith.

Isn't it?

In regards to John 15, when Jesus spoke these words "in Me," prior to Him being glorified, how many people had received the Holy Spirit and were in the body of Christ? (Acts 11:17; Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:13). In John 7:38,39 we read - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in Me" here is part of the metaphor of the vine. How could it mean "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant, which was not yet fully established? A branch that bears NO fruit is a DEAD branch. To be "in Christ" under the New Covenant is to be saved (2 Corinthians 5:17). To be a dead branch self-attached to the vine, but not abiding in the vine, like Judas Iscariot is to not be saved.

Do you really believe Judas was never saved? In Jn6:70, Jesus said He chose ALL TWELVE of the Disciples. In Jn15:16, Jesus chose them and ordained they bear fruit that remains. Now return to Jn6:67-70 --- to Peter's protest "Oh no we won't leave, we know You're the Messiah!" --- Jesus holds up Judas.

Why? "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Please tell us how Jesus is NOT saying "ANY of you CAN leave, one (Judas!) already is!"?

Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, (in Me - in the vine) he did not bear fruit or abide in the vine because he was an unbeliever and a devil (John 6:64; 70, 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. The fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are removed. Notice that Jesus mentions branches that produce NO fruit and branches that produce fruit (John 15:2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit. Same with James.

James very much believed a truly-saved person could become unsaved; if anyone wanders from the faith, but another leads him back, then he'll be saved again! James5:19-20!

Also, sin can deceive to death --- James1:14-16 --- conspicuously using "thanatos death and Hell"...

In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins took no oil with them and were unprepared from the start. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. Ephesians 2:10 does not teach that our salvation is maintained by good works. Created in Christ Jesus unto or for good works, which God hath before ordained that we "should walk in them" does not equate to "must walk in them to maintain our salvation." We are saved for good works, not by good works.

Not by good works, but by faith.

We are not in a race to either attain or maintain our salvation by works. In 1 Corinthians 9:18-27, Paul mentions "what is my reward," "the prize," and an "imperishable crown."

Two things about that passage --- what does "race so as to WIN" mean? And in verse 27, what does Paul mean by saying "HE HIMSELF could be disqualified/rejected/unapproved"? Note that "adokimos" (disqualified/unapproved) appears also in 2Cor13:5, where we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in Christ that we not be disqualified...

There will be rewards received and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ for those who are saved. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Nothing mentioned there about loss of salvation.

"Loss of salvation" is very clear in 2Pet1:5-11, and 2:2:20-22. And 2:3:14 & 17. And it's clear in 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and pretty much all of Hebrews (see especially 3:6-14, 4:11, and 10:26-29!). It's clear in 2Cor11:3. I could go on, with literally dozens of similar verses...

Is the prize the same thing as the gift of God? (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) There is a difference between a prize and a free gift. There are multiple crowns mentioned in Scripture.

What did Paul mean in Col3:24, "the reward of the inheritance"?

How about Philip2:16? Paul is judging his own success in terms of how his followers persevere in salvation, isn't he?

If Paul was worried about being disqualified from receiving eternal life, then why did he say, "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness (not the only crown mentioned in Scripture), which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (not might or might not)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Paul does not indicate any insecurity about his salvation.

Please read 2Tim1:12-14; God guards what we entrust to Him, and by the Spirit we guard the eternal life that God entrusts to us.

I have a friend who believes that it's possible for a genuine Christian to lose their salvation, but he believes that you would have to walk away from the Lord and remain that way, so basically you would be throwing your salvation in the trash by choosing to completely reject Him after you have been saved. I never hear him say that our salvation is "maintained" by our works. If we are trying to obtain or maintain our salvation status based on our performance, then we have yet to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) If you are a genuine believer who believes that it's possible to lose your salvation by throwing it in the trash, then go ahead and believe that if you like, but my concern is for people who believe that it's possible to lose your salvation who are not even saved in the first place and they are basing their salvation on their performance "works salvation" instead of Christ's finished work of redemption.

Those in Matt7:21-23 might well have "never been saved". But those in Rev3:14-22, were. Laodicea was in the same position as those in 2Pet2:20-22, who escaped the defilements through the true saved knowledge of Jesus, but are worse now that they have turned away than before they were saved.

If someone believes that our salvation is based on our works then they will naturally believe that our salvation is also maintained by our works as well. People can argue all day long about whether or not it's possible for a genuine born again Christian to lose their salvation, but what is more important, HOW ARE WE REALLY SAVED TO BEGIN WITH?

True; I'd love to hear your thoughts on the thread I started on "what is salvation".

And I look forward to your thoughts on this post.

:-)

[Eyelog]

Exactly right, "Episkopos". To believe savingly is to obey Jesus, is to receive Him, is to walk in Him, is to abide in Him and His teachings. As Jude says, "Keep yourselves in His love".

Dan, please read Heb5:9: "He is the source of salvation to all who obey Him". This connects directly to Rom6:17, we became obedient from the heart, which then connects to Rom10:9-10, "If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved; for with your heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."

Please review John6:27-29; Jesus said in verse 29 that believing is God's work, but in 25-28 it's clear that work is something WE work. Indeed, Jesus said:
"Do not work for food that perishes, but WORK for food that endures to eternal life".

You --- DO this! WORK for food that endures! Not "do works to be saved", but "do God's work by believing".

Zero "merit", 100% broken conviction and throwing ourselves worthless and meritless at Jesus' feet begging Him to save us.

Make sense?

Tried to rep you, Gad. Can't yet. But I like the way you spiritually cogitate!

[Eyelog]

You're right. You're right again; actually, the "me-dunamai" construct is best translated
"That faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!" Okay, fine so far; but whose faith is it? Does man have anything to do with that faith? Or is man a passive recipient of gifted faith, so that Eph2:8 really reads, "By grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved, and that is NOTHING of yourselves it is the gift of God"?

This is the question, who chooses the faith that saves. If MEN choose, then it's not a one-time choice, but it is as Romans1:17 conveys, from beginning faith to ending faith.

Isn't it?
Do you really believe Judas was never saved? In Jn6:70, Jesus said He chose ALL TWELVE of the Disciples. In Jn15:16, Jesus chose them and ordained they bear fruit that remains. Now return to Jn6:67-70 --- to Peter's protest "Oh no we won't leave, we know You're the Messiah!" --- Jesus holds up Judas.

Why? "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Please tell us how Jesus is NOT saying "ANY of you CAN leave, one (Judas!) already is!"? James very much believed a truly-saved person could become unsaved; if anyone wanders from the faith, but another leads him back, then he'll be saved again! James5:19-20!

Also, sin can deceive to death --- James1:14-16 --- conspicuously using "thanatos death and Hell"...
Not by good works, but by faith. Two things about that passage --- what does "race so as to WIN" mean? And in verse 27, what does Paul mean by saying "HE HIMSELF could be disqualified/rejected/unapproved"? Note that "adokimos" (disqualified/unapproved) appears also in 2Cor13:5, where we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in Christ that we not be disqualified... "Loss of salvation" is very clear in 2Pet1:5-11, and 2:2:20-22. And 2:3:14 & 17. And it's clear in 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and pretty much all of Hebrews (see especially 3:6-14, 4:11, and 10:26-29!). It's clear in 2Cor11:3. I could go on, with literally dozens of similar verses... What did Paul mean in Col3:24, "the reward of the inheritance"?

How about Philip2:26? Paul is judging his own success in terms of how his followers persevere in salvation, isn't he? Please read 2Tim1:12-14; God guards what we entrust to Him, and by the Spirit we guard the eternal life that God entrusts to us.
Those in Matt7:21-23 might well have "never been saved". But those in Rev3:14-22, were. Laodicea was in the same position as those in 2Pet2:20-22, who escaped the defilements through the true saved knowledge of Jesus, but are worse now that they have turned away than before they were saved. True; I'd love to hear your thoughts on the thread I started on "what is salvation".

And I look forward to your thoughts on this post.

:-)

Gentlemen:

To be saved we must believe in our heart Jesus was raised from the dead and so be justified (made righteous), but it is by confessing with our mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios/YHWY) tha twe are saved. Roma 10:8-10

The confusion over works vs. faith is huge. Let me give a stab at elucidation:

First, it was Paul who in Eph 2 says we are saved by grace throiugh faith, and not by works let anyone boast. Of course, the next sentece is that we are createdin christ Jesus for works of righeousness He prepared in advance that we would walk in them. 2:9-10. We love Him for that, Right? Sounds like belief in the heart alone is what gets us saved. sounds, like works are an afterthoguht taht if we are saved we will just happen to do. If twe don't, oh well, just a bit less treasure in heaven.

Second, however, it was the same Paul who says in Romans 10:8-10 that you need the belief in the heart (kardia) -- which I contend is subtantially more than "mental assent" in the mind -- PLUS a confession of Christ as Lord. See my post #47 under thread "Why won't God remove desire to sin?" under Growth in Christ. This is a big deal

Faith is trust in Christ as the propitiation of our sins plus outward confession of Him as Lord of our life, i.e., the master of we who are His slaves, meaning we must obey Him, being part of His program. If we don't get that part right, all the trying to get close to God in the vine is for naught.

So, can you lose your salvation? Can we be unborn again, de-regenerated, Spirit-undwelt, having your name blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, etc?

Sure. Stop believing in your heart, and stop confessiing him with your words and actions. Then, as you both seem to point out, yor faith is dead. End of story. But, I contend that true believers never stop doing those things. Does that mean a true beliver won't fall? NO. But a true believer, like Peter after disowning Christ, repents, and seeks reconciliation withthe Lord in forgiveness. Problem is, many who think they are true believers may be wrong.

So, I agree with you. Hope my is of some interst to you.

[dan p]

Is once saved, always saved, also known as eternal security, true or not? I believe it is true.

Hi , and it so easy to prove and Eph 2:8 is just one verse that show it . '" For by Grace are you having been saved " .

The Greek word SOZO/SAVED is in the Greek Perfect Tense which is Past Tense with Continuing Results .

The Perfect tense means that having been saved once in the Past , NO ONE can go back to the past and be saved again .

The Continuing Resultes are alway in the pensent tense and never in the Part ever again .

Christ death on the cross in John 10:30 where Jesus said " it is finished " is also in the Perfect Tense and Jesus can NEVER go back and die again either just like us , so OSAS , DAN P

[Gadgeteer]

Gentlemen:

To be saved we must believe in our heart Jesus was raised from the dead and so be justified (made righteous), but it is by confessing with our mouth Jesus is Lord (kurios/YHWY) tha twe are saved. Roma 10:8-10

Hi, "Eyelog"! I'm honored by your words.

Have you recognized the connection between Rom10:6-10, and Deuteronomy30:11-20? Indeed, Paul says the word of faith in Deuteronomy, is the same word of faith they were teaching about Jesus! And that word is placed in everyone's heart and mouth, therefore it is NOT "something we do of ourselves" (merit!), but it's something God made available to all; each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away disobey and perish (Deut30:17-18!). The doctrine is rock-solid and irrefutable. Now --- please add in Acts17:26-31, it's the same thing; it's NOT too far, it's near to each of us, because God DETERMINED that men can be WHERE they should seek Him and perhaps find Him, [b]God commands all men everywhere to repent!

So much for "meritorious personal faith"! God has given the faith to be saved, to everyone; each can ACT on that faith, or each can refuse it.

If anyone has an argument to Deuteronomy30:11-20 and Romans10:6-10, let's hear it. Note well that Deut30:19-20 says "I have set before you life and death ...so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him..."

The doctrine gets stronger and stronger, doesn't it? :-)

The confusion over works vs. faith is huge. Let me give a stab at elucidation:

First, it was Paul who in Eph 2 says we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works let anyone boast. Of course, the next sentence is that we are created in Christ Jesus for works of righteousness He prepared in advance that we would walk in them. 2:9-10. We love Him for that, Right? Sounds like belief in the heart alone is what gets us saved. sounds, like works are an afterthought that if we are saved we will just happen to do. If we don't, oh well, just a bit less treasure in heaven.

Please look at what Peter said in 2:1:5-11. I hate translations that say "add to your faith", as if there's a saved faith without godly attributes. They're not optional --- he who LACKS those fruits has forgotten purification from former sins! Such a man WAS purified (saved!), but now he is ungodly/immoral/ignorant/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind; he is saved no longer!

So, you're 100% right; true salvation will HAVE the good fruits.

Second, however, it was the same Paul who says in Romans 10:8-10 that you need the belief in the heart (kardia) -- which I contend is substantially more than "mental assent" in the mind -- PLUS a confession of Christ as Lord. See my post #47 under thread "Why won't God remove desire to sin?" under Growth in Christ. This is a big deal.

Well, all I can say, is "amen".

Faith is trust in Christ as the propitiation of our sins plus outward confession of Him as Lord of our life, i.e., the master of we who are His slaves, meaning we must obey Him, being part of His program. If we don't get that part right, all the trying to get close to God in the vine is for naught.

So, can you lose your salvation? Can we be unborn again, de-regenerated, Spirit-undwelt, having your name blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, etc?

Sure. Stop believing in your heart, and stop confessing him with your words and actions. Then, as you both seem to point out, your faith is dead. End of story. But, I contend that true believers never stop doing those things. Does that mean a true believer won't fall? NO. But a true believer, like Peter after disowning Christ, repents, and seeks reconciliation with the Lord in forgiveness. Problem is, many who think they are true believers may be wrong.

Ahhh, here we diverge; have you read the "if-you-continue" verses? Such as Hebrews3:6 and 14. Then there's Col1:21-23, and 1Cor15:2. All of those say "saved if you CONTINUE..."

Do a search on "blameless"; as in, being found blameless by Jesus when He returns. You'll see Philip2:15, Col1:23, 2Pet3:14, and Jude24. In each of those passages, blamelessness is our full and constant choice. (Jude 24, because of the context of 20-21!). Really, 1Jn2:26-28 is another, because "shrink-in-shame at His coming" is very much at odds with "being-found-blameless". There's a prayer by Paul for us to CONTINUE in salvation, IN ORDER TO BE blameless, in Philip1:9-10!

Do a search on diligence; you'll find it in 2Pet1:5-11 (and 3:14), Heb10:36 and 6:11 and 4:11, and it is really what Paul admonishes in 1Tim4:16. In all of those "continue-in-salvation", is plainly in view.

So, I agree with you. Hope my is of some interest to you.

Interesting smilies here! :-)

I think yours was an excellent post; we differ but little.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi , and it so easy to prove and Eph 2:8 is just one verse that show it . '" For by Grace are you having been saved " .

The Greek word SOZO/SAVED is in the Greek Perfect Tense which is Past Tense with Continuing Results .

The Perfect tense means that having been saved once in the Past , NO ONE can go back to the past and be saved again .

The Continuing Results are alway in the present tense and never in the Part ever again .

Christ's death on the cross in John 10:30 where Jesus said " it is finished " is also in the Perfect Tense and Jesus can NEVER go back and die again either just like us , so OSAS , DAN P

Hi, Dan!

You are cordially invited to consider any of my last 3-4 posts; bristling with Scripture, do you think my understanding is in error?

I look forward to your thoughtful consideration.

:-)


PS: Regarding "Jesus cannot go back and die again" --- this is the exact warning in Hebrews10:26-29, if WE continue sinning willfully after having been saved, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us. Note verse 29, a man who once was sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now scorns that very blood, tramples Jesus, and insults the Spirit. That man is US, if we don't heed the warning of verse 26!

It's the same thing in Heb6:4-6 --- for those who refuse to mature, it's useless to keep trying to preach "repentance", because while they are falling away (continuing to sin willfully!), they won't want to repent. This in no way opposes James5:20, or Rom11:23; if one does not continue in unbelief (which is the same as continuing in sin), they can be restored to salvation. Hebrews6 is focused on their unwillingness, not an "absolute impossibility". "It is adunatos-unable/powerless to restore them to repentance because/since/seeing-as/WHILE they crucify Christ anew to themselves (by constant sin) and hold Him to shame (regard Him with contempt)."

("because/seeing-as/since/while" from various translations, especially King James and New American Standard and New International)

Oh --- while you're in Hebrews6, please thumb back to 4:11 and tell me what the writer intended to convey?

[mailmandan]

Obedience IS faith! "If you love Me obey my commandments!"

To say that obedience "is" faith is to say that faith "is" works. You make no distinction between faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation and obedience (works) which follow as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith. We love Christ and keep His commandments because we have faith, not to establish our faith.

[mailmandan]

It is snobby to the extreme to reason that one who loses a race was never really a runner to begin with. Kicking someone when they are down is the mark of a bad character. Rather, many are called but few will be chosen. Many begin the race but few can finish it.

I think the spin doctors are at work with the Matt 25 parable. The fact is that there are 10 VIRGINS....not 5 virgins and five adulterers. Not 5 virgins and five harlots. These 10 were the same except the wise 5 actually put into practice what they had been given. They used the tools they were given. They used the MEANS to their proper function. Compare this with the parable of the men who built on a rock or on sand. Blessed is he who hears (receives) and DOES what he is commanded. For not hearers but doers are justified.

You simply must understand that works are not obedience. What Paul means by works are works of the law done in one's own strength apart from the reality of grace. Who is in control? That is the difference!

Where do you come up with "snobby," "kicking someone when they are down" and "bad character?" Many are called but few are chosen does not equate to many are saved but few will remain saved by finishing a race. How does your argument here harmonize with Romans 8:30? Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. How many justified/saved people will lose their salvation and not be glorified according to Paul?

5 foolish virgins who took no oil with them who were not ready to meet the bridegroom does not represent saved people. Five took oil with them and were prepared from the start and five did not take oil with them and were not prepared from the start. That is the real difference. Only those who truly believe act on or put into practice the sayings of Jesus. Unbelievers do not. Only believers are doers. Works done by a lost person in an effort to merit their salvation is not obedience. Once we have been saved through faith, good works that we accomplish are acts of obedience. Good works accomplished by a saved person are certainly not disobedience.

[mailmandan]

When I was a new Christian, I believed that any effort to be nice or good by my own effort was to be seeking to be justified by works rather than grace. So I was rude and nasty in order to uphold this standard I thought I was bravely defending. When I was in the Spirit...what a contrast! So I made sure that everyone knew when I was in the Spirit! I was literally sinning more so that grace would abound the more.

It is akin to a Christian friend who came out to a bar where our Christian band was playing. In order to help us secure a longer stay at that club he drank more thus inflating the sales and therefore our desirability to the owner. He got royally pasted so we had to carry him home. So he sinned more so that the message would go out more.

But this is the height of immaturity.

Even a child is known by his character. Even a pet is known by it's character. So we need to make EVERY effort to do what is right. It will take everything we have PLUS the help of God to maintain a righteous stance in the world.

Those who will not add obedience to the mix are like spiritual schizophrenics. Others see what we really are even if we are unknown to ourselves.

Exactly how did you become a Christian?

[mailmandan]

Excellent! I especially like the part I highlighted in red!

I noticed that Gadgeteer correctly said, Please review Eph2:8 --- note the word, "THAT", does not refer to "faith", but to the whole gift of salvation, "By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved". New American Standard footnotes "that", as "that salvation". That salvation by grace, that salvation through faith, that salvation not of yourselves, that salvation gift of God, that salvation not by works. Salvation is clearly the gift of God, but you said to me in a previous post that salvation is not the gift of God. You also said, "Grace is a gift of God that leads us to do the works unto salvation." Paul said that we are saved through faith first then unto good works. Paul did not say that we are saved by grace through good works.