Once saved, always saved?

[Gadgeteer]

A person can't become Born -Again... again. They can only be restored!

Yea. That's why I don't call it getting "saved" again but rather, restored into fellowship.

Yes they can. Passages like Heb12:7-9 clearly teach that "a born-again/begotten/adopted son can CEASE to be born-again" --- so one who is restored, is born-again a second time. What happened to the Prodigal? Before he left his father he reflected a "saved person"; but only on returning was he "alive-again". Alive-again is born-again-again.

But he couldn't find repentance. Why not? Why the warning about Esau?

Heb 12:17
17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
NASU

There was only one "blessing"; Isaac already gave it to Jacob, there were no "take-backs".

Could it have anything to do with Hebrews 6 or 10?

No.

yes he was! Before he denied Jesus, he rejected the conviction of Jesus, judged his brothers, and lifted himself up pridefully. "I won't deny you Jesus" - even though Jesus just told him he would. "Though all these may" - a thought that suggest Peter saw himself as better than the others - pride. And then finally, the denial itself that was already in Peter. It came out when the trial came. Yet, even with all these sins in Peter, Jesus said "Come pray with me for my soul is sorrowful unto death." In the midst of the sin, there was intimacy. Interesting.

No --- in the "midst of the sin", there was a turning-back. That's what "epistrepho" means, a real spiritual turning. He could not have epistrepho-turned-BACK, if he was not actually facing FALLING.

Jesus said of those "LORD, LORD" that he never knew them. Not that he knew and forgot. Not that the lost it. But that he never knew them. They did not respond to Jesus "But we trusted you Lord". They responded to Jesus "But look at our works!" And he told them to leave him.

They may have never known Him, or may never have been known by Him; but look at the Galatians --- "KNOWN by God", but became "severed-separated from Jesus", and "fallen from grace". See Gal4:9, 5:4 (and also 3:3 and 5:7).

Pretty conclusive, isn't it?

[Gadgeteer]

Interesting that you should ask this question. Here you have a religious man who counts his own righteousness to be of merit in his salvation. Nothing in the context leads us to believe that this is a saved man but rather a religious lost man.

So a man who "was sanctified by Jesus' blood", might not have ever been saved? How is that possible, Roger?

You have failed to make a point. We know of Gods grace through the hearing of Gods word. This is how we receive God's faith to believe and be saved.

Ahhh, here is a problem --- and until we resolve this problem, the rest of the discussion is also hopeless.

We do not "receive God's faith" --- GOD receives faith from US.
"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God, must believe God is (must come BY faith), and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Heb11:6.

"Faith" flows in direction from MEN, towards GOD; what we receive by faith is His grace and the gift of righteousness, Rom5:17. It is the outcome of OUR FAITH by which we receive salvation, 1Pet1:9.

Those who have been justified by faith live by the faith of God. Not their own faith but the faith God gives through His word and by the presence of His Holy Spirit.

See? This is the difference between us; what is it that makes a man "receive God's faith"? How does he make that CHOICE, without first believing God? The doctrine which asserts "gifted-faith/regeneration BEFORE belief", is Calvinism/predestined-salvation.

Well you have drawn an incorrect conclusion. If he lacks the virtues of Christ then he was not purged. He has forgotten the virtues is to say he does not know them.

But he was formerly purified! Do you think he was pure, apart from salvation in Jesus and the Spirit?

He remembers only his old nature the sin nature. Had he received the new nature in Christ he could not go back to the old nature the old nature being dead.

So he never HAD the new nature? How was he "pure"?

Really that is all you have been saying. Your efforts are necessary to remain saved. We abide in Christ because He abides in us. We continue in Christ because He abides in us.

No, we are sternly charged TO abide in Christ --- 1Jn2:26-28. And it's nothing I'm saying that you are resisting. You promised to address some verses, I'm looking forward along with everyone to your thoughts.

What do you make of Jude20-21? "Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God". How do you read that?

What am I supposed to make of it? I have always taught that believers are to live a holy separated life for Christ. It is the natural outcome of being a new creature in Christ. I see nothing to teach that one can lose their salvation especially in light of vs 24.

If the dictate is "KEEP YOURSELVES in His love", then clearly NOT-keeping, is possible!

And that is fully consistent with "saved by our own faith".

You need only to look to the blood of Christ.

And the guy in Heb10:29, had it -- he was sanctified by Jesus' blood.

Once.

But not no mo'.

[Slug1]

Be advised... Notuptome will not be returning to address questions.

This thread can continue but will be closed if it reaches 1000 posts.

[Gadgeteer]

Be advised... Notuptome will not be returning to address questions.

That's unfortunate; I was looking forward to his thoughts on some of those verses.

I understand how some can think that "saved by our faith" might cross over into "saved by our works". But I think Jesus explained it well in John6:25-29. Our believing is God's work --- but it's God's work that we work. Jesus clearly says "You --- DO this!" ("Do not work for perishable food, but work for food that endures to eternal life...") The work of salvation is all His, finished on the Cross; but it is a work that we must receive and put on. Thus, "saved by His grace and His work, through our faith". His power, our decision.

It's critical that we understand that God receives those who come to Him by faith. Indeed, the opposite of that, would be God receiving those who do NOT revere Him and do NOT seek righteousness, which Peter calls "partiality" in Acts10:34-35. There is no way to change Peter's words in 1:5:9, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation".

I don't hear anyone arguing much for "sinfully-saved"; we mostly agree that we-the-saved cannot walk in sin --- righteousness is really required of us, the righteousness that comes from Him inside of us. So this is our agreement --- whatever each of us believes on OSAS or OSNAS, it is terribly important to seek His face with all that we are, to (as James says) "Draw near to God that He draws near to us". Prayer is the power of the believer. We enter within the veil and fellowship with the Almighty, or (and I will not say "we" here) the alternative is to walk outside in the darkness and in sin.

As long as we are all focused on intimacy with our Lord and the Spirit, and focused on building each other and promoting fellowship, then each person here is officially declared the "winner" of the debate. For we shall all be together with Jesus when He returns, and we shall all win.

Let us take as many with us as we can; it is a selfless motivation, no less to take care of their physical and emotional needs, than their spiritual; for their joy and eternity is at issue. Towards that, let us show love and Jesus between our words, that whoever reads them will want what we have. We cannot lie to the world. If He is not real in our own hearts, we will not persuade the world.

:-)

[BrianW]

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Galatians. 5:2-4
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Rev. 2:10-11
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.


--------------------------


I have done nothing to earn salvation. There is nothing that I could ever do to earn salvation. What I can do is to have faith and believe , Which is a gift from God,
John 6:65
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

and trust in His promises and mercy.

Nothing that I, Brian, will ever do will get me right with God. It is only Christ in me that does good.

I think that clearly a born again believer has a thirst for truth. I think a born again believer has a yearning to be acceptable in God's sight.

I do not think that there is a one stop salvation shop say a little prayer, get dunked and you're done. Walk away live how you want and don't worry about it except for church on Easter morning or singing a Christmas carol at a certain time of year.

I do not think that it is an "On again, off again" relationship either.

I think that salvation is a process. I think that if we believe and love Him as we say we do then we will follow His teachings. We will run the race trusting in Him to give us the strength and the will to keep on running and not falter.
If we stop trusting in Him and relying on His strength then we can stumble, fall to the wayside and get up to walk a path of our own.

God has done everything to bring us into the light. He has set before us blessings and promises and consequences and implores us with love to choose Him.

But we aren't puppets. If we were there would have been no need for Christ to even come down to earth in the first place. God is on our side regarding salvation but man is allowed the freedom to turn away and reject what is freely given through a hardening of the heart and obstinacy.

Joshua 24:15

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

[Gadgeteer]

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Excellent verse. I love connecting this verse with 2Cor13:5, by the word "adokimos". Back in their day they would gather coins and examine them to see if they were worn; if the image that had been impressed onto the coin was worn, it would be "adokimos-rejected/disqualified". And it's the same word in 2Cor13 --- we are to examine ourselves (obviously by our fruits!) to see if we are in Christ, and if Christ is in us. Else, we could be "disqualified/rejected", just as Paul said he could be.

Galatians. 5:2-4
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

WERE these Galatians ever saved? 5:7 they were "running well" and "obeying the truth"; 3:3 they were "begun in the Spirit", and 4:9 they were "KNOWN by God". How could they not have been saved? What about the "fallen/severed" --- is that a real possibility, or only hypothetical-but-can't-really-happen"? It reads as real to me...

Rev. 2:10-11
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'

And verses 1-5 speaks of those who have left their firstlove, if they do not repent and do the deeds they did at first they will be removed.

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.

Another excellent citation. "Deceived-by-sin-to-DEATH" is clear in many places, see James1:14-16. Hebrews3 connects to the next chapter --- 3:18-19 describes how Israel did not enter their rest/promised-land because of disobedience and unbelief, then in 4:11 we are warned not to fall and fail to enter GOD'S rest by imitating their disobedience and unbelief!

I have done nothing to earn salvation. There is nothing that I could ever do to earn salvation. What I can do is to have faith and believe , Which is a gift from God,
John 6:65
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

and trust in His promises and mercy.

Very well said. See Jn5:40, "coming" (which absolutely denotes faith) precedes "having-life". In Jn17:5, those who belong to God (they believe and love the Father!), are given to Jesus; given through faith. Jn6:44 and 6:65 is answering the Jews' complaint, verse 42:
(Paraphrased) Jews: "We saw this kid grow UP, who does He think He IS?!"
Jesus: "Those who come to Me, are authorized by God; _I_ am authorized, I have authority, that's who I am."

Nothing that I, Brian, will ever do will get me right with God. It is only Christ in me that does good.

Amen.

I think that clearly a born again believer has a thirst for truth. I think a born again believer has a yearning to be acceptable in God's sight.

Very well said.

I do not think that there is a one stop salvation shop say a little prayer, get dunked and your done. Walk away live how you want and don't worry about it except for church on Easter morning or singing a Christmas carol at a certain time of year.

:-D

I do not think that it is an "On again, off again" relationship either.

There are those who have returned to salvation; but they are fewer than the number who has left. Seems to be what Peter taught in 2:20-22 ("they are worse than before"), and John in Rev3:14-22.

I think that salvation is a process. I think that if we believe and love Him as we say we do then we will follow His teachings. We will run the race trusting in Him to give us the strength and the will to keep on running and not falter.

It's both; he who HAS the Son has eternal life (instant), and he who abides in Him until the end will be saved (lifelong walk).

If we stop trusting in Him and relying on His strength then we can stumble, fall to the wayside and get up to walk a path of our own.

And THAT is the purpose of temptations, and of deceivers.

God has done everything to bring us into the light. He has set before us blessings and promises and consequences and implores us with love to choose Him.

"Love" has to be a choice, or it isn't love. "Love does not demand its own way." 1Cor13:5.

But we aren't puppets. If we were there would have been no need for Christ to even come down to earth in the first place. God is on our side regarding salvation but man is allowed the freedom to turn away and reject what is freely given through a hardening of the heart and obstinacy.

Yes! Because God is LOVE!

Joshua 24:15

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

You know, Brian, this kind of a post that you've made, full of understanding and His Spirit, can ONLY be made by one who knows and loves God and Jesus, and is filled with the Spirit.

You are a blessing to everyone!

[Grunner]

I don't believe it (once saved-always saved).
Here's why. I used to be a bonafide Christian but don't consider myself one anymore.
I don't believe that there will be anyone standing beside me speaking on my behalf in the afterlife and the best I can hope for is that my loved ones will be saved.

My lack of faith disqualifies me as does my hatred (hatreds, if that's a word).
I don't believe that you could justify me based on any Biblical standard.

Of course I was saved before, unless it was a capricious joke being played on me by God. I made a confession of faith which according to Paul should qualify for salvation.

[Gadgeteer]

I don't believe it (once saved-always saved).
Here's why. I used to be a bonafide Christian but don't consider myself one anymore.
I don't believe that there will be anyone standing beside me speaking on my behalf in the afterlife and the best I can hope for is that my loved ones will be saved.

My lack of faith disqualifies me as does my hatred (hatreds, if that's a word).
I don't believe that you could justify me based on any Biblical standard.

Grunner, you are very welcome here. No one condemns you for where you are.

I would like to know, if you're willing to talk --- what happened to make you so angry with God?

You do not have a "lack of faith"; no one who is faithless hopes for salvation for their loved ones. Something happened, for which you blame God.

Of course I was saved before, unless it was a capricious joke being played on me by God. I made a confession of faith which according to Paul should qualify for salvation.

It was not a capricious joke, nor was it cruel; I submit that God is incapable of cruelty. Tell us your story; we will not laugh at you, we will hurt with you.

What is the focus or your "hatreds"?

[Grunner]

Grunner, you are very welcome here. No one condemns you for where you are.

I would like to know, if you're willing to talk --- what happened to make you so angry with God?

You do not have a "lack of faith"; no one who is faithless hopes for salvation for their loved ones. Something happened, for which you blame God.
It was not a capricious joke, nor was it cruel; I submit that God is incapable of cruelty. Tell us your story; we will not laugh at you, we will hurt with you.

What is the focus or your "hatreds"?

I wouldn't necessarily say it's "angry with God." It would be more accurate to say that it's angry with Christians. One of whom once asking, sounding sincere, "What happened between you and God?" (something pretty similar to what you're asking).

My issue is in part with God. The Bible says that God is not mocked. However, I would say that God is certainly mocked and Christians today and through the ages are making a mockery of Him.
If there is power in the name of Jesus, which I would readily contest, where is it?

[Gadgeteer]

I wouldn't necessarily say it's "angry with God." It would be more accurate to say that it's angry with Christians. One of whom once asking, sounding sincere, "What happened between you and God?" (something pretty similar to what you're asking).

You know, there are very few Christians. I see them in traffic cutting people off, giving me the finger (real incident, not kidding); and there on the bumper is a Christian fish. Showing the world how loving and joyful it is to be a "Christian"! "Oh! Oh! I wanna BE LIKE HIM!!!" As if. These are the many who will stand before Jesus, as Matt7:21-23 says, and He doesn't know them; or they are from Laodicea, thinking they are rich and don't need anything, not knowing they are poor blind miserable wretched and naked (and Jesus will vomit them from His mouth!) --- Revelation3:14-22. There are few real Christians. And even those who do know Him --- are fallible, capable of failing you and me. None of us are perfect; but only a pitiful few really love Him.

My issue is in part with God. The Bible says that God is not mocked. However, I would say that God is certainly mocked and Christians today and through the ages are making a mockery of Him.

You're absolutely right. And why is that?

Jesus said, "He who is not with Me, is against Me." Mattthew12:30. The stark reality of being Human, is that we are slaves. There is no choice, we're born slaves, and we'll die slaves. The only control we have, is to whom we are enslaved.

We're born slaves to sin and darkness; to become enslaved to God (Rm6:22), we are actually set free (John8:34-36). His yoke is easy, His burden light. Doesn't mean life as a Christian will be easy; just the opposite, we're promised tribulation. (Matt11:29-30, Jn16:32.)

We can serve the darkness, or we can serve the Light --- we must serve one or the other. There is no "in between". Jesus said in Matt7 that "you will know them by their fruit". People who are hateful and hurtful, are only revealing the dark side that they serve.

If there is power in the name of Jesus, which I would readily contest, where is it?

Ahhh, you want Him to come roaring into the world and make everything right! A very honorable desire. But there is a time and a place.

1Jn4 says "God is love" --- love has certain characteristics, by definition. 1Cor13:5 says "love does not demand its own way". The deepest desire God has is that people love Him back. It is the greatest commandment, on which all the Law and Prophets are based. (Matt22:37) I don't know if you're married; but if you or I were in love with another person, could either of us make that person love us back? Never! We can only ASK. And that's why God has chosen an "age" where He is not visibly controlling everything, to give people the chance to love Him from their hearts, not for what He can do. He wants to be a close Father, not a cosmic Santa.

Jesus, to Doubting Thomas: "You believe because you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe." Jn20:29

Obviously God values unseen-love, more than seen-love; though Jesus blasted an audience once for having seen His miracles, but still refusing to believe (Matt11:21-24). If He was overtly making things right, then what value would "love" have?

There is so much evil in the world; Christians are tortured and killed for their faith now, much more than even in the First Century. But death isn't a big deal for God; everyone dies. Yet our death is the beginning of being with Him. The time WILL come when Jesus will make that appearance you long for --- riding in with a sword, setting right so much that has gone wrong. It defies logic and history to think otherwise; nothing of Biblical prophecy has ever been falsified, and it is the most credible text in history.

Look at this:

"Realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, ...ungrateful unloving ...brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid men like these!" 2Timothy3:1-5

Sound familiar? That's what we're seeing! This hating and mocking of God, does not mean that people are bad; well it does, but it ALSO means that Jesus is coming much sooner than people expect! The world sits on the edge of a collapse; I don't think we can survive 2012, or 2013. We are seeing earthquakes and famines, wars and rumors of wars, all sorts of disasters. We're going to see a lot more.

"We have to have faith". What does that mean? There are all sorts of paths to faith. The credibility of Scripture, the testimony of believers, historical events --- I believe a bill snuck through in May 2005 ("Real ID") will become the Mark of the Beast, tracking buying and selling on the pretense of "identifying terrorists" (Rev13:16-17); rumor has it being enforced in 2013, everyone in America (and likely in the world) MUST have the card. But it boils down to making a conscious decision to believe in God. I can talk to you of science, the absolute impossibility of life happening by mere accident; I see serious intelligent thought all around. I can talk to you of personal faith; but each person has to make his or her own decision. I really really believe that if a person asks honestly, "God, are you real? Do you want me???" --- the answer will be YES.

Thirty years ago, I asked those exact questions; and His answer is why I belong to Him now! He is love, perfect and eternal love; He is perfect, and He is everything.

Grunner, you are not even CLOSE to being "closed-hearted" to Him. I don't know what you need to turn you BACK, but I pray with all my heart and soul that something happens to make Him real --- real enough that you will take His hand and let Him chase away the anger and fill you with His joy. John15:11!!!

Remember, a couple hundred centuries ago, a guy who did NOTHING wrong was hated, mocked, and nailed to a tree to DIE. Dripping sweat and blood from the nails, from the wounds the bone-and-metal-tipped-whip had torn, and from a cruel circlet of thorns (dozens, each an inch or two long!) that had been slammed down onto His head so that the thorns actually stuck into His very skull --- what did He do?

"Father, forgive them; they don't know what they're doing."

Forgive them. He forgave them in the MIDST of their murdering Him, in His agony! How can we be angry with men, when Jesus Himself felt sorry for them?

You and I may not get drunk or fornicate/adulterate or steal or murder or any number of "heinous crimes"; but both of us fully deserve the fires of Hell. You know, belief in Jesus, is also belief in the reality of Hell. He's not "just an escape", but both concepts go together. I tell Atheists I would MUCH rather belong to God and be wrong about everything, than to live life in sinful abandon and then die and be wrong!

I don't know what to say, to convey the reality of Jesus that I know, to you. I can say "ask Him", and mean it --- I know He will answer! But just as the Jews rejected Jesus because He didn't fit their idea of a "making-things-right king", we also have to accept Him on HIS terms. And we have to believe that He WILL make things right. In His time.

No one can harm us, who belong to Jesus; as He said, whatever good OR BAD is done to us, is really done to Him. Matt25:40.

I want so much to say something of value to you. I want you as a brother (sister?), forever! I have no greater treasure in Heaven than YOU, as one of our family; and I pray with all my heart that I treat people with kindness and love that they will want to be with me also. God does not condemn people for being bad; they condemn themselves for rejecting Him --- being bad is just the consequence of loving sin rather than seeking God.

I pray VERY hard that something I say, or anyone else says, will cause your anger to go away, and to seek Him --- for Scripture says time after time "if we seek Him with all our hearts, we will find Him". Jeremiah29:11-13!

May God bless you, and bring you close to Him, forever; for He is perfect love, and He loves you and desires your company and mine more than you or I can ever realize. That's why the veil tore, Mark15:38, the moment He died; it tore for YOU --- you are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of Almighty God. Because He DELIGHTS in you, celebrates your fellowship. That is the ultimate truth of the Universe, "Grunner"; His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand! In your spirit you know these words are absolutely true.

[Diggindeeper]

Grunner, hello and welcome to this little corner of the world wide web and our world wide family of believers! I can't stay up any later to make a 'readable' reply to you, but I will be back tomorrow and head here. I would, however, like to take time to ask you to read one of my articles on this board, if you will. I pray it will help you or your loved ones.

You can view the page at
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...This-Broadcast

[mailmandan]

Here's why. I used to be a bonafide Christian but don't consider myself one anymore. Of course I was saved before, unless it was a capricious joke being played on me by God. I made a confession of faith which according to Paul should qualify for salvation.

Hi Grunner,

Please explain to me how you were saved before. What exactly was your confession of faith prior to your lack of faith? I certainly welcome you here on this forum.

[Grunner]

You know, there are very few Christians. I see them in traffic cutting people off, giving me the finger (real incident, not kidding); and there on the bumper is a Christian fish. Showing the world how loving and joyful it is to be a "Christian"! "Oh! Oh! I wanna BE LIKE HIM!!!" As if. These are the many who will stand before Jesus, as Matt7:21-23 says, and He doesn't know them; or they are from Laodicea, thinking they are rich and don't need anything, not knowing they are poor blind miserable wretched and naked (and Jesus will vomit them from His mouth!) --- Revelation3:14-22. There are few real Christians. And even those who do know Him --- are fallible, capable of failing you and me. None of us are perfect; but only a pitiful few really love Him.
You're absolutely right. And why is that?

Jesus said, "He who is not with Me, is against Me." Mattthew12:30. The stark reality of being Human, is that we are slaves. There is no choice, we're born slaves, and we'll die slaves. The only control we have, is to whom we are enslaved.

We're born slaves to sin and darkness; to become enslaved to God (Rm6:22), we are actually set free (John8:34-36). His yoke is easy, His burden light. Doesn't mean life as a Christian will be easy; just the opposite, we're promised tribulation. (Matt11:29-30, Jn16:32.)

We can serve the darkness, or we can serve the Light --- we must serve one or the other. There is no "in between". Jesus said in Matt7 that "you will know them by their fruit". People who are hateful and hurtful, are only revealing the dark side that they serve.
Ahhh, you want Him to come roaring into the world and make everything right! A very honorable desire. But there is a time and a place.

1Jn4 says "God is love" --- love has certain characteristics, by definition. 1Cor13:5 says "love does not demand its own way". The deepest desire God has is that people love Him back. It is the greatest commandment, on which all the Law and Prophets are based. (Matt22:37) I don't know if you're married; but if you or I were in love with another person, could either of us make that person love us back? Never! We can only ASK. And that's why God has chosen an "age" where He is not visibly controlling everything, to give people the chance to love Him from their hearts, not for what He can do. He wants to be a close Father, not a cosmic Santa.

Jesus, to Doubting Thomas: "You believe because you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe." Jn20:29

Obviously God values unseen-love, more than seen-love; though Jesus blasted an audience once for having seen His miracles, but still refusing to believe (Matt11:21-24). If He was overtly making things right, then what value would "love" have?

There is so much evil in the world; Christians are tortured and killed for their faith now, much more than even in the First Century. But death isn't a big deal for God; everyone dies. Yet our death is the beginning of being with Him. The time WILL come when Jesus will make that appearance you long for --- riding in with a sword, setting right so much that has gone wrong. It defies logic and history to think otherwise; nothing of Biblical prophecy has ever been falsified, and it is the most credible text in history.

Look at this:

"Realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, ...ungrateful unloving ...brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid men like these!" 2Timothy3:1-5

Sound familiar? That's what we're seeing! This hating and mocking of God, does not mean that people are bad; well it does, but it ALSO means that Jesus is coming much sooner than people expect! The world sits on the edge of a collapse; I don't think we can survive 2012, or 2013. We are seeing earthquakes and famines, wars and rumors of wars, all sorts of disasters. We're going to see a lot more.

"We have to have faith". What does that mean? There are all sorts of paths to faith. The credibility of Scripture, the testimony of believers, historical events --- I believe a bill snuck through in May 2005 ("Real ID") will become the Mark of the Beast, tracking buying and selling on the pretense of "identifying terrorists" (Rev13:16-17); rumor has it being enforced in 2013, everyone in America (and likely in the world) MUST have the card. But it boils down to making a conscious decision to believe in God. I can talk to you of science, the absolute impossibility of life happening by mere accident; I see serious intelligent thought all around. I can talk to you of personal faith; but each person has to make his or her own decision. I really really believe that if a person asks honestly, "God, are you real? Do you want me???" --- the answer will be YES.

Thirty years ago, I asked those exact questions; and His answer is why I belong to Him now! He is love, perfect and eternal love; He is perfect, and He is everything.

Grunner, you are not even CLOSE to being "closed-hearted" to Him. I don't know what you need to turn you BACK, but I pray with all my heart and soul that something happens to make Him real --- real enough that you will take His hand and let Him chase away the anger and fill you with His joy. John15:11!!!

Remember, a couple hundred centuries ago, a guy who did NOTHING wrong was hated, mocked, and nailed to a tree to DIE. Dripping sweat and blood from the nails, from the wounds the bone-and-metal-tipped-whip had torn, and from a cruel circlet of thorns (dozens, each an inch or two long!) that had been slammed down onto His head so that the thorns actually stuck into His very skull --- what did He do?

"Father, forgive them; they don't know what they're doing."

Forgive them. He forgave them in the MIDST of their murdering Him, in His agony! How can we be angry with men, when Jesus Himself felt sorry for them?

You and I may not get drunk or fornicate/adulterate or steal or murder or any number of "heinous crimes"; but both of us fully deserve the fires of Hell. You know, belief in Jesus, is also belief in the reality of Hell. He's not "just an escape", but both concepts go together. I tell Atheists I would MUCH rather belong to God and be wrong about everything, than to live life in sinful abandon and then die and be wrong!

I don't know what to say, to convey the reality of Jesus that I know, to you. I can say "ask Him", and mean it --- I know He will answer! But just as the Jews rejected Jesus because He didn't fit their idea of a "making-things-right king", we also have to accept Him on HIS terms. And we have to believe that He WILL make things right. In His time.

No one can harm us, who belong to Jesus; as He said, whatever good OR BAD is done to us, is really done to Him. Matt25:40.

I want so much to say something of value to you. I want you as a brother (sister?), forever! I have no greater treasure in Heaven than YOU, as one of our family; and I pray with all my heart that I treat people with kindness and love that they will want to be with me also. God does not condemn people for being bad; they condemn themselves for rejecting Him --- being bad is just the consequence of loving sin rather than seeking God.

I pray VERY hard that something I say, or anyone else says, will cause your anger to go away, and to seek Him --- for Scripture says time after time "if we seek Him with all our hearts, we will find Him". Jeremiah29:11-13!

May God bless you, and bring you close to Him, forever; for He is perfect love, and He loves you and desires your company and mine more than you or I can ever realize. That's why the veil tore, Mark15:38, the moment He died; it tore for YOU --- you are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of Almighty God. Because He DELIGHTS in you, celebrates your fellowship. That is the ultimate truth of the Universe, "Grunner"; His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand! In your spirit you know these words are absolutely true.

OK, you've replied with a very lengthy post that would be difficult to respond to point-by-point.

Let me tackle some of them.
First, I don't think you're challenging my point against Once-saved-always-saved.
A part of my problem is with the self-convincing most Christians do with their morality in deriving their affirmation of faith. I agree that many who say they are, really aren't. Fine. I'm realistic enough to admit the same. A part of my challenge is with my own inability to live up to the moral of the Bible (succinctly, the New Testament). The hatred I bear is only a part of it.
Further, I'm not convinced that there is a "as far as the east is from the west" separation of sin from God - especially, in the temporal.

I know your arguments... I very familiar with Christian apologetics. I have some better arguments than some of the biggest apologetics that are published (in some areas... in other areas, not as good, admittedly).

In my case, consider Paul's arguments on salvation (I Cor. 6:9). Again, I am realistic enough to know that I break some of those rules. Ironically, many others do too; the difference is that they are not realistic enough to realize as I do. Consider that Jesus is not only interested in our actions (outward actions), but the internal actions of the mind. Paul references this when he says take every thought captive. Jesus affirms that if we so much as hate our brother, we are guilty of murder. The Old Testament deals with outward actions (murder) but Jesus extends the scope of spirituality to the inward (hatred/anger).
Have you murdered anyone today? I have. And I do it repeatedly. Is that the admission of someone that is "once-saved-always-saved"?

[Grunner]

Hi Grunner,

Please explain to me how you were saved before. What exactly was your confession of faith prior to your lack of faith? I certainly welcome you here on this forum.

I know what you're trying to do. You're advancing the hypothesis of Calvinist theology that says that people can't fall away from grace (Preservation of the Saints - the fifth pillar, or petal, of Calvinist predestination doctrine).
If you can successfully challenge my salvation (i.e. render my election to be suspect; therefore I was not really the subject of unconditional election), then you can maintain the once-saved-always-saved presupposition.

If not, then I apologize for my presupposition.

Let me ask anyone this question regarding Calvin's TULIP (his idea of predestination, including once-saved-always-saved): Can you conclude, after reading the entire Bible, that people are not given a choice, based on the Biblical text, whether or not to serve God?

I ask because I can demonstrate choice from Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, to Abraham, Joshua, Saul, David, Solomon, the kings and prophets, all the way through to John the Baptist. The New Testament is littered (not literally) with demonstrative choice of people. Joshua's words, "Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD" echo throughout the Bible.

[Diggindeeper]

I happen to be of the camp that DOES believe a person can 'lose' their salvation. I do not adhere to the 'once-saved-always-saved' view. Many here do, but I don't.

I think where I may view it differently than you (I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.), but I honestly believe the Lord keeps his word. When he said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", he absolutely meant it. It is a promise we can count on and depend on.

However, it is WE who turn away into disbelief. Or perhaps we can believe (wrongly) that we can live any way we want and STILL be 'saved'. I am glad and grateful that Christ Jesus lived here on earth, in HUMAN form, and now, he really, REALLY knows what its like to be human. He has walked in our shoes, so to speak. He knows what its like to be tempted and face rejection without revenge, or face brutal treatment and not retaliate!

I agree, Grunner. It can be difficult to rise above the level of our dirt based humanity. But, its God-in-us that can enable us to live HIGHER than the dirt we actually are! And in reality, that's all we are...just dirt! And still, and this is hard for me to understand, but still...He loves us enough to promise never to leave us nor forsake us. Us, the dirty mess that we are...he still never leaves us. Never forsakes us.

I too pray that your loved ones will be saved, Grunner. I sincerely pray that happens.