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Thread: Once saved, always saved?

  1. #46
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by PJW View Post
    If you "slip-up" sometimes, it manifests that you didn't repent at all. Jesus said "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:" (John 14:24) God won't save people that don't love Him. Jesus said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24) Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin..." (John 8:34) But, thankfully, Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) You can live a life without sin!! Repentance is "turn from or change". If you repent of sin, (as we are told to do by Peter in Acts 2:38 you are not a sinner anymore! The truth will free you from your flesh.
    I think this is a perfect example of exactly what I am refuting. You can reread my posts and notate scripture references to read in context later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Job 34:19
    God is not partial to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of His hands.

  2. #47
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by jandl View Post
    Another verse that messes Christians up so bad because they misunderstand it. "INHERIT" is the key word to help you understand it. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, which is for Christians, and it is a judgment based on our works as a Christian, we will be rewarded and crowned if the judgment is favorable enough to the Lord (for lack of better wording...lol). We inherit rewards and crowns and praise, or we DON'T. If we lie and commit adultery, that jeopardizes our chances of INHERITING those rewards. The subject is NOT whether we go to heaven, but what we may or may not inherit at the Judgment.
    When you quoted glad4mercy I believe one of the areas of scripture that can be referenced is 1 Corinthians chapter 6. Now i think there may be other areas that mirror the text but i can't remember off hand. Just to add to what you are saying....

    1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
    1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    When removed from it's proper context it seems rather damning. At one time I read this and focused on areas in which I could violate. But if we continue reading we see

    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    Some of them contained these behaviors. As we read we understand that there were many problems in the Corinthian church. Some of them may seem minor like the disputes and divisions that were prevalent. We see that same thing today. Others were obviously more atrocious. Though these fleshly errors existed they didn't cease being saints as we see in the first verses of this letter.

    Paul saying you "were washed" and "were sanctified" is consistent with other things we see him say on the same issue. When discussing this topic we need to essentially make two lists. What seem to support OSAS or NOSAS and why? Then look at them in their proper context. Does that well known verse in Hebrews really show a Christian losing their salvation? I'll comment on that more later if time permits.

    There is a lot we can learn by examining the entirety of the bible on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Job 34:19
    God is not partial to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of His hands.

  3. #48
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    When I was backslidden and committing the things that were worthy of death, I was like the prodigal son. I never could have imagined that God would ever take me back for the things that I had done, but when I came back to the Lord, I found that He was there all the time, waiting for me to come back to Him. He never disowned me, He was continually drawing me to Himself.

    I realize that I did not lose my salvation when I backslid. I did not have to be "born again" a second or third time or whatever. I was backslidden and out of fellowship with God, but I was still one of His Sheep. I had gone astray for a season. Jesus came and found me. Blessed be His Name. With all this in mind, a person who truly knows Christ and is one of His will not remain in a life of rebellion of sin. They may stumble and fall for a season, but God will restore them. A life of willful rebellion and sin is a sign of not being a Christian at all.

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born [1] of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    A person who is saved may fall into sin, but their attitude towards sin is much different than an unsaved person. It's like a sheep can fall in the mud, but he won't make his dwellingplace there. It is not in the sheeps nature to make his bed in the mud. He needs help in getting out of the mud, so the Shepherd leaves the 99 in safety and goes out and finds the lost sheep.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  4. #49
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Another verse that messes Christians up so bad because they misunderstand it. "INHERIT" is the key word to help you understand it. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, which is for Christians, and it is a judgment based on our works as a Christian, we will be rewarded and crowned if the judgment is favorable enough to the Lord (for lack of better wording...lol). We inherit rewards and crowns and praise, or we DON'T. If we lie and commit adultery, that jeopardizes our chances of INHERITING those rewards. The subject is NOT whether we go to heaven, but what we may or may not inherit at the Judgment.


    Revelation 21: 7
    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    1 John 5: 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    If we truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are overcoming the world.
    If we overcome the world, we will inherit all things.
    We overcome the world through or by faith in Jesus Christ.

    Does faith need to be a present possession, ( ie- continued in)? Will true faith always perservere and grow, or must it be nurtured?

    Even if I knew that no matter what I did I could not be lost, I certainly don't want to neglect the precious gift that Christ shed His blood to give me. Seeing He gave His Life for us, the least we can do is live for Him. I know that good, sincere Christians hold to OSAS, ( my mother did, and her fervent prayers for me are one of the things that helped bring me back to Christ.), but some people, ( not saying you are) turn salvation into fire insurance instead of what it is meant to be. Salvation is not only meant to get us to Heaven, but it is also meant to produce fruitful, loving, righteous saints in the earth.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    I would prefer the term "security of the believer" to "once saved always saved". The believer is secure because he/she is kept by the power of God through faith. The believers security in Christ is much more biblical than once saved always saved.

    Human responsibility- Jude 21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Divine Grace- Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

  5. #50
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Amen. I made a serious mistake in the beginning but I know that God still works in my life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Treasured View Post
    I have been saved by faith...that faith being a gift from God, the Author and Perfector of my faith. He has adopted me as His child...and He thought to do so from before the foundations of the earth...and He is not inclined to 'change His mind'. He has placed the seal of His Holy Spirit upon me, marking me as His own. Paul exhorted the Galatians not to fall into works to 'retain' their standing before God...but rather to remain in Him through the faith that He had bestowed upon them. Having begun in the Spirit, he urged them to remain, by faith, in the Spirit...dearly beloved adopted children and chosen of God.

    I love because He first loved me...and yes that love will draw me to pray in communion with my Abba Father and will draw me to work out my salvation however I am led to do so...bringing all aspects of my life into alignment with His perfect will, into alignment with His plans and purposes for me which are all good...He is my good Shepherd and as His sheep I know His voice and I willingly follow Him. I am increasingly Spirit-led as I learn to love and trust Him and to recognise His beloved voice. Spirit-led 'works' that bring glory and blessing to the One we love are worlds apart however from flesh-led works that struggle and strive to 'earn' a place in heaven.

    God is my Father...not my Judge...and so it's not about my performance...it's about our love-filled, love-inspired relationship.

    The story of the prodigal son tells us that the son 'came to his senses' and returned to his father...I can't help wondering how anyone can run away from a loving heavenly Father, who is not in some way 'out of their senses'...in which case I believe that the grace of God covers a multitude of sins including but not limited to 'senselessness'...

  6. #51
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndie View Post
    I am not saying that if someone sins they lose their salvation, we all have days where we fall short. Sinning doesn't mean we don't believe in God. I am speaking of those who at one time did believe, and because of something in thier life, they made a choice to stop believing. David sinned, but he also asked God to cleanse him, like you said. He chose to go to God and seek repentance. I think that is what people are missing...there are so many things in the bible we must actively choose to do, such as abiding in Jesus. God doesn't automatically make me abide, it is a daily choice. I don't understand how people can think that God will keep us without us making a conscious choice to follow Him daily. And we can choose to follow him, or we can choose to not follow him, even after we are saved. As Diggin' said earlier, there are just to many 'ifs' for me to believe in osas. IF I abide, IF I seek His face, IF I follow his commandments. I also think if it were a matter of God keeping us saved, we would never doubt or question Him. We wouldn't have to because it was Him doing all the work.
    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22).

    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

    Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:6-9)

    Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

    Do you still believe that it's all about us pulling ourselves up by our boot straps and keeping ourselves saved? It's not faith + "if" = salvation. "If" validates faith and salvation. Notice in 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for "if" they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

    Hope this helps.

  7. #52

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    Why would Paul be encouraging the saved to walk in the Spirit ? So, that they don't fulfil the lust of the flesh ?

    Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    Notice Paul, says here, "if" you be led of the Spirit. This is a conditional statement. Paul is not saying, that you "will" be led of the spirit.

    Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    It is clear that the saved have an option, to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh. In which the latter means that they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  8. #53
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by jes View Post
    Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    Why would Paul be encouraging the saved to walk in the Spirit ? So, that they don't fulfil the lust of the flesh ?

    Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    Notice Paul, says here, "if" you be led of the Spirit. This is a conditional statement. Paul is not saying, that you "will" be led of the spirit.

    Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    It is clear that the saved have an option, to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh. In which the latter means that they will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Paul is not saying that believers will never be led of the Spirit and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Believers are capable of sinning and temporarily backsliding, which during this time they would not be walking in the Spirit, but no one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10) The children of God (believers) practice righteousness. Are you teaching that there will be those who are born of God that will practice these sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 and not inherit the kingdom of God? That is in contradiction to 1 John 3:9. We see this same message in Galatians 5:19-21 mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and he goes on to explain more.

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) The righteous, who are believers (Romans 4:5) are not considered unrighteous.

    Did Paul say that the righteous will not inherit the kingdom of God or the unrighteous? Are the unrighteous saved? Is Paul talking about disqualifying the righteous from the kingdom of God for practicing such sins or is he giving us a description of those who practice such sins (the unrighteous) who will not inherit the kingdom of God? Such were (past tense) some of you but you were washed, sanctified and justified. Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30). So Galatians 5:16-21 cannot be teaching that there will be saved people who continually walk in the flesh, practice such sins and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  9. #54

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    I don't believe it is true, as scripture gives us many examples:

    Revelation 22:19

    "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

    Here we see it is possible to be removed from the book of life. Anyone not in the book of life will be thrown into the Lake of fire:

    Revelation 22:19

    "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire"

    Matthew 24:48

    "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

    The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

    He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Here it shows that a Christian can lose his reward by not living for the Lord and going back to his former habits.

    Hebrews 10:26

    "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

    I don't think scripture could be any plainer here. A person trying to manipulate grace by continuing to live a wicked lifestyle will have no sacrifice left for their sins, that judgement and the lake of fire await them.

    2 Peter 2:20

    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

    This shows someone can be saved and backslide out of it. They are worse off than when they began.

    Hebrews 6:4-6

    "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

    I think these and many other verses prove that OSAS is not biblical and is in fact a dangerous heresay. Although, His work is finished, our work has just begun. It's not a matter of earning salvation, because Christ did that work on the cross for us. It's a matter of abiding in Christ:

    John 15:5

    "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

    We are under the law of Christ, and are obligated to follow His commands and moral law. If we do not do this, we do not abide in Him.

    Hebrews 3:13,14

    "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

    Notice the conditional..

    1 Peter 4:17, 18

    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

    The righteous will scarcely be saved..

    Luke 6:48

    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

    Matthew 7:22-23

    "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

    And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

    I think a lot of Christians are going to be hearing this, unfortunately. I have met so many who tell me "I can do no wrong"..but scripture plainly says we can do still do a lot of wrong. I think this is the meaning of "many are called but few are chosen."

  10. #55
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Posted by remade:
    I think these and many other verses prove that OSAS is not biblical and is in fact a dangerous heresay. Although, His work is finished, our work has just begun. It's not a matter of earning salvation, because Christ did that work on the cross for us. It's a matter of abiding in Christ:

    Right! I'd like to share why I see OSAS as a dangerous teaching. I actually HEARD a preacher on the radio say,
    "If the lord came and I was right in the middle of an act of adultery, I would still go to heaven. Because adultery is a sin of the flesh, but my spirit would still go to heaven."

    And I heard another preacher at a local church say,
    "No matter how I live, I have been saved. And once you are born again, you can't be unborn. So no matter what I do, even if I don't want to go to heaven, I'd still go there, even if I have to be dragged in kickin' and screamin' that I didn't want to be there. Because all our sins are forgiven...past, present and future!"

    It seems to me they ignore scriptures like this:


    1 Corinthians 6:9
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
    If...IF... they preached the truth they would be preaching this:

    Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

    But I suggest IF you are learning under one of the preachers like I've heard above, don't just walk away. No. RUN AWAY as fast as you can!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  11. #56

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGirl02 View Post
    Is once saved, always saved, also known as eternal security, true or not? I believe it is true.
    No, it is not true. But there are three separate and distinct views of "OSAS":
    1. Antinomainism/Gnosticism (backslidden-but-saved, walking-in-sin-FLESH but saved SPIRIT, etcetera)
    2. Eternal Security (anyone can be saved, but once "IN" either too changed to leave or God protects)
    3. Predestined-Salvation/Reformed-Theology/Calvinism/etcetera (God predestines everything, ordains most people to perish)

    Calvinists do not like to be classed as "OSAS", but rather "perseverance of the saints". Nevertheless, Calvinism proposes "once truly saved, you will persevere" (or rather, "God will preserve you").


    There are actual incidents of apostasy in Scripture, and many warnings against falling from salvation (the dangers being deceivers, sin itself, and bad-angels). Even persecution and affliction can put us at risk.

    The second and third views are not critical to our fellowship, the first is. We can disagree on #2 and #3, but still have fun discussions, celebrating our differences and promoting love and fellowship between believers. There is a time when they do not matter.

    Much harm has been done in discussions such as these; I will gladly post Scriptures on the statements I just made, but be advised --- I do NOT wish to bring harm to anyone or anyone's walk, but to honor Christ and glorify God and encourage each of you closer to Him, even if we never agree.

    We can discuss this and embody 1Jn4:20.

    The beginning of the discussion is the question, "What IS salvation?" All views of OSAS assert "if a person falls, then they were not REALLY saved in the FIRST place" (1Jn2:19 is thought to support this). This is a "catch-22", and should be compared with Scripture.

    What is salvation? What makes a sheep "sheep", and what makes a goat "goat"?

  12. #57

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by remade View Post
    I don't believe it is true, as scripture gives us many examples:

    Revelation 22:19

    "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
    "Blotted from the book" is Scriptural --- Rev3:5, Ex32:32, Ex32:32, etcetera.
    Here we see it is possible to be removed from the book of life. Anyone not in the book of life will be thrown into the Lake of fire:

    Revelation 22:19

    "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire"

    Matthew 24:48

    "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

    The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

    He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Here it shows that a Christian can lose his reward by not living for the Lord and going back to his former habits.

    Hebrews 10:26

    "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
    Amen. But continue on --- verse 29 proposes a man who is US if we don't heed the warning of 26, a man who once "was sanctified by Jesus' blood" --- was saved. But is no more.
    I don't think scripture could be any plainer here. A person trying to manipulate grace by continuing to live a wicked lifestyle will have no sacrifice left for their sins, that judgment and the lake of fire await them.

    2 Peter 2:20

    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
    OSAS people take this as the FALSE escaping --- but they never escaped anything. "Never ceased from sin". In verse 18, it is the false that tempt the TRULY escaped (ontos-apopheugo, or barely-escaped oligos-apopheugo in later Greek). Note well that 2:20-22 uses the exact same words "escaped defilements/corruptions through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus", as in 2Pet1:1-4. In chapter 1 it refers to the saved; has to also in chapter 2.
    This shows someone can be saved and backslide out of it. They are worse off than when they began.
    Right.
    Hebrews 6:4-6

    "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
    This is an often-misunderstood passage; it is not saying "we cannot become saved again", in violation of James5:19-20 or Romans11:23. All this passage is saying (which has to be read with the end of chapter 5), is that those who once were saved but now are walking in sin will not want to repent. It is their willful sin that is the problem, thus Heb6:4-6 is a mirror to Heb10:26-28.

    BTW, the entire letter of Hebrews, verse after verse and chapter after chapter is teaching "OSNAS".
    I think these and many other verses prove that OSAS is not biblical and is in fact a dangerous heresy. Although, His work is finished, our work has just begun. It's not a matter of earning salvation, because Christ did that work on the cross for us. It's a matter of abiding in Christ:

    John 15:5

    "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

    We are under the law of Christ, and are obligated to follow His commands and moral law. If we do not do this, we do not abide in Him.

    Hebrews 3:13,14

    "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;"

    Notice the conditional..
    Yes. Other "conditional-salvation" verses are Col1:21-23, and 2Cor15:2 (don't forget Heb3:6!).
    1 Peter 4:17, 18

    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

    The righteous will scarcely be saved..

    Luke 6:48

    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

    Matthew 7:22-23

    "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

    And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
    This is taken by OSAS people as "they were never really saved in the first place".
    I think a lot of Christians are going to be hearing this, unfortunately. I have met so many who tell me "I can do no wrong"..but scripture plainly says we can do still do a lot of wrong. I think this is the meaning of "many are called but few are chosen."
    We can disagree on two of the three "OSAS" views; what I hope we can find agreement on is not walking in sin, and growing closer in intimate fellowship with our Lord and Savior.

  13. #58

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    You can test my opinion about this topic:

    When we believe into the Lord, we are guarenteed with an oath and a promise that we will gain the sabbath rest (Hebrews 6:17-20, John 14:2-3). The sabbath rest is resting with God for eternity. Everyone who believed are guarenteed this rest; it's just a matter of when we will get it. If we strive to get it, we can get it sooner, or if we neglect to strive, we get it later. It depends on how you run (1 Corinthians 9:24).

    For unbelievers who never believed, they enter the lake of fire instead.

    (end opinion)

  14. #59

    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    You can test my opinion about this topic:

    When we believe into the Lord, we are guaranteed with an oath and a promise that we will gain the sabbath rest (Hebrews 6:17-20, John 14:2-3).
    Please look at Hebrews3:6 (referring to John14:2-3, "the Father's house") --- we are Christ's house IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our assurance firm until the end. Now look at Hebrews6:11 (referring to your citation of Hebrews6:17-20) --- we NEED diligence SO AS to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that we not be sluggish BUT imitators of those who through faith and patience INHERIT THE PROMISES.
    The sabbath rest is resting with God for eternity.
    Please refer to Hebrews4:11 --- we are severely warned to be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest we FALL and fail to enter by imitating Israel's unbelief and disobedience.
    Everyone who believed are guaranteed this rest;
    No --- it's continued belief. Please read Romans11:18-23 --- it is arrogant to think that we cannot be cut off for unbelief; and those who WERE cut off, will be restored, if they do not continue in unbelief.
    it's just a matter of when we will get it. If we strive to get it, we can get it sooner, or if we neglect to strive, we get it later. It depends on how you run (1 Corinthians 9:24).
    If we neglect so great a salvation, we will not escape! Hebrews2:1-3!
    For unbelievers who never believed, they enter the lake of fire instead.
    What about believers who CEASE to believe? In Matt23:13 are those who ARE ENTERING (believers!) who can be STOPPED/SHUT-OFF. In 2Pet1:9 is one who WAS PURIFIED (believer, saved!), but now is IMPURE (unsaved, unbeliever!); he is the bad example against which we need DILIGENCE to continue in salvation! 2Pet1:5-11!!!

    In Heb10:26-29, the man in verse 29 is US, if we do not heed the warning of 26; and "once sanctified by Jesus' blood" is absolutely "was-saved"!
    (end opinion)
    I respect your opinion; and I hope that I have, with kindness, challenged that opinion with Scripture. What do you think of these verses?

  15. #60
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    Re: Once saved, always saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    Please look at Hebrews3:6 (referring to John14:2-3, "the Father's house") --- we are Christ's house IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our assurance firm until the end.
    Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. The wording in Hebrews 3:6 is not - "and you will be become Christ's house (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, Christ's house, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Holding fast is the proof that we are Christ's house. Failure to hold fast demonstrates a lack of genuine conversion and that we are not Christ's house. Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed.

    Now look at Hebrews 6:11 (referring to your citation of Hebrews6:17-20) --- we NEED diligence SO AS to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that we not be sluggish BUT imitators of those who through faith and patience INHERIT THE PROMISES.
    Where is the effort focused directly? The effort, the earnest pursuit, is focused directly on "realizing the full assurance of hope until the end" which only truly saved people can do. How many promises are there to inherit?

    The author is desirous that, as they were diligent in the past, so now in the present they might grow mature in order to know the full assurance of hope.
    This assurance may in various ways be shaken, and intermitted, but the principle out of which it springs can never be lost.

    Please refer to Hebrews 4:11 --- we are severely warned to be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest we FALL and fail to enter by imitating Israel's unbelief and disobedience. No --- it's continued belief.
    Notice in verses Hebrews 4:2-3, For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. Disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. Continued belief is proof of genuine belief.

    Please read Romans 11:18-23 --- it is arrogant to think that we cannot be cut off for unbelief; and those who WERE cut off, will be restored, if they do not continue in unbelief. If we neglect so great a salvation, we will not escape! Hebrews 2:1-3!
    Paul is viewing Jews and Gentiles, but he is not viewing individuals. His point is simply this: Just as the Jews (though not all) rejected Christ and were removed from the place of blessing, so also the Gentiles if they reject Christ will be likewise removed from the place of blessing. He is not speaking of an individual Gentile who believes in Christ and is saved, and then later in his life rejects Jesus Christ as Saviour then loses his salvation. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were Jewish (natural branches) not because they were all saved. If the Gentiles do not continue in His kindness, then they will be cut off as well because of unbelief. In reagards to Hebrews 2:1-3, if we drift away from the message that we heard, then we show no concern for the message and end up neglecting the message by not mixing what we heard with faith and receiving salvation.

    What about believers who CEASE to believe? In Matt 23:13 are those who ARE ENTERING (believers!) who can be STOPPED/SHUT-OFF.
    Who said that believers ceased to believe? Were these people in Matthew 23:13 actually saved and with certainty going to enter or are they still trying to enter? Is your interpretation of Matthew 23:13 in harmony with what Jesus said in John 10:27,28? My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    In 2Pet1:9 is one who WAS PURIFIED (believer, saved!), but now is IMPURE (unsaved, unbeliever!); he is the bad example against which we need DILIGENCE to continue in salvation! 2Pet1:5-11!!!
    There is no mention of re-election, or losing election. It only says to make our calling and election sure. I find it interesting that the term fall away/stumble was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away" (see Matthew 26:33). Also note that even though Jesus said they would "fall away", in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times temporarily, but not permanently. In verse 1 Peter 1:9 he asserted that deficiencies in this regard did not indicate a loss or lack of salvation, but shortsightedness, evidence that one has forgotten that one was purified of one's sins. A deficiency in Christian virtues may indicate spiritual immaturity or neglect on the part of the believer, not a loss of salvation.

    In Heb10:26-29, the man in verse 29 is US, if we do not heed the warning of 26; and "once sanctified by Jesus' blood" is absolutely "was-saved"!
    The word sanctified here appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians) means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation at all. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it several times to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved!) A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. It's likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by denying the knowledge of the truth that he heard, and by repudiating the work of the person of Christ Himself. Such a person's apostasy is evidence that his identification with believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. Hebrews 10:26 said they received the "knowledge" of the truth, but what did they do with this truth? They willfully sinned by rejecting Christ deliberately. Verse 39 settles the issue because the author is contrasting not only destruction and salvation, but he places belief on the side of salvation alone. In other words, he does not talk about people who believe but then draw back to perdition. People who truly believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition and people who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul. Is your interpretation of Hebrews 10:29 in harmony with 1 John 3:9? No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. How can someone who does not practice sin willfully sin and lose their salvation?

    I respect your opinion; and I hope that I have, with kindness, challenged that opinion with Scripture. What do you think of these verses?
    I respect your opinion and I hope that I have, with kindness, challenged that opinion with Scripture. What do you think after reading through my response?

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