Once saved, always saved?

[Gadgeteer]

Amen! and again I say, Amen! I hope that episkopos read that and I wonder if he agrees with that statement or if he believes that it is the DEEDS that actually save us.

My response:

How can one be faithful without deeds? Most (almost all) Christians spend sunday repenting of what they have been doing all week (weak). What saves us is RESPONDING to the call of Christ....mental assent or holding a doctrinal position means nothing unless one MOVES and does something about the call.

We are called on to repent, seek, ask, knock, be diligent, do what is right, be obedient, persevere...etc. That is something we DO. Not just agree with.

If I am starving and I am given bread as a gift...that gift is useless unless I eat it. So the saving part is not just being given bread.

There is a story of a young boy in the Warsaw ghetto who cried with hunger all night in the street until someone threw a piece of bread to him. The next morning they found the boy dead while trying to reach for the bread. He hadn't the strength to reach it, so he died.

That sums up the plight of most of us in the rich western world. But with us, it is spiritual slackness.

Prov. 26:15 "The sluggard buries his hand in the dish. He is too lazy to bring it back to his mouth."

This is why James said "Show me your faith apart from deeds, and I by my deeds will show you my faith".

James said, "What use is it, if your brother or sister is in need of basic things and you say 'Go your way and be clothed warmed and fed', but you do not give them the very things they need, what use is it?"

So "faith" is not merely mental assent, it is action.

[BroRog]

Paul very much opposes "assurance of salvation".

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves." 1Tim4:16.

And same chapter verse 1, some will wander away from the faith by being deceived by deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

See Philippians --- verses 1:9-10, a prayer for us to continue in salvation; and 2:16, Paul judging his own success in terms of how his followers persevere.

I can quote dozens of Pauline statements which affirm the very real risk of falling; see 2Cor11:3, where we're at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve was from God in the Garden!

While Paul reminds Timothy that some will fall away, he does NOT oppose "assurance of salvation". In fact, he writes about it in Romans 5. In that passage he writes that we can glory in our tribulations because the testing of our faith leads to a hope that will not disappoint.

[Gadgeteer]

While Paul reminds Timothy that some will fall away, he does NOT oppose "assurance of salvation". In fact, he writes about it in Romans 5. In that passage he writes that we can glory in our tribulations because the testing of our faith leads to a hope that will not disappoint.

Well, perhaps I could have worded it differently. You're right, Paul does not oppose "assurance of salvation"; he opposes "guaranteed salvation". The testing of our faith, if we pass the test, leads to the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James1:12!

Look at 1Tim1:19, 6:10 & 20-21; 2Tim2:18. More "Pauline wander away from the faith" verses....

[glad4mercy]

A good book that deals with assurance of salvation is the book of First John. John teaches that we can have assurance of salvation because of our relationship with Christ. IF we have a relationship with Christ, there will be evidence and fruit.

Here's some glorious verses on assurance of salvation.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4- He that saith , I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:5- But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected : hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:29- If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:14- We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him

1 John 3:24- And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 4:13- Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Do these verses teach salvation by works? No, but they do teach an effectual salvation. We are not saved because we do good works, love the brothers, etc. but if we are truly saved and if we truly have a relation ship with Jesus we will do these things. If we are not living and walking in the Light, I don't think we have a real basis for assurance, but if we have a living relationship with Jesus and are walking in Him the Light of Life, we can have full assurance. Mere intellectual assent to the teachings of the Bible do not give true and accurate assurance, neither does going through the motions of religion. The only basis for assurance is union of Christ, and if we are in union with Him, there will be evidence.

[Gadgeteer]

Hello Eyelog,

That last line is fundamental to the OSAS postion: "Can't lose salvation, just some rewards here or there." That is a dangerous position to hold, and one that does not jibe with the full revelation of scripture. I would prefer to believe I could lose it all, and live carefully, rather than to believe I could only lose some rewards, and live loose and lose it all. The warning passages are directed at far more than just "rewards."

Hi, "Bandit". I've always wandered about this; exactly what would one have to do, to lose a reward or two (but not lose salvation)? It seems that what could possibly lose rewards, would be conspicuous sins. So are there some sins allowable (and therefore some measure of "unrepentance" that God overlooks)?

I really suspect that one who says, "Lose rewards but not salvation", has not thought things out far enough.

Being saved, that is "IN CHRIST", is in Scripture an all-or-nothing proposition. Jesus and the Spirit truly indwell the believer. As such, Jesus and the Spirit participate in our actions; and they will not participate in sins.

So then what is it (which by definition cannot be a "sin") that can lose us rewards, but still permits the saved indwelling presence of Jesus and the Spirit???

[episkopos]

Hi, "Bandit". I've always wandered about this; exactly what would one have to do, to lose a reward or two (but not lose salvation)? It seems that what could possibly lose rewards, would be conspicuous sins. So are there some sins allowable (and therefore some measure of "unrepentance" that God overlooks)?

I really suspect that one who says, "Lose rewards but not salvation", has not thought things out far enough.

Being saved, that is "IN CHRIST", is in Scripture an all-or-nothing proposition. Jesus and the Spirit truly indwell the believer. As such, Jesus and the Spirit participate in our actions; and they will not participate in sins.

So then what is it (which by definition cannot be a "sin") that can lose us rewards, but still permits the saved indwelling presence of Jesus and the Spirit???

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Bandit]

Hi, "Bandit". I've always wandered about this; exactly what would one have to do, to lose a reward or two (but not lose salvation)? It seems that what could possibly lose rewards, would be conspicuous sins. So are there some sins allowable (and therefore some measure of "unrepentance" that God overlooks)?

I really suspect that one who says, "Lose rewards but not salvation", has not thought things out far enough.

Being saved, that is "IN CHRIST", is in Scripture an all-or-nothing proposition. Jesus and the Spirit truly indwell the believer. As such, Jesus and the Spirit participate in our actions; and they will not participate in sins.

So then what is it (which by definition cannot be a "sin") that can lose us rewards, but still permits the saved indwelling presence of Jesus and the Spirit???

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And then there are those who misapply 1 Cor. 3:15. (Not necessarily wanting to start that discussion again, but that is a very popular verse for many.)

[mailmandan]

You're right. You're right again; actually, the "me-dunamai" construct is best translated
"That faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!" Okay, fine so far; but whose faith is it? Does man have anything to do with that faith? Or is man a passive recipient of gifted faith, so that Eph2:8 really reads, "By grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved, and that is NOTHING of yourselves it is the gift of God"?

Faith without works cannot save us and it's not because these works have some kind of intrinsic merit to account us as righteous before God, but because they prove or manifest the genuineness of "our faith which does save us through trusting in Christ alone for salvation." Man chooses to place his faith in Christ for salvation, but salvation is still the gift of God received by grace through faith. We either accept the free gift of eternal life through faith or else we reject it.

This is the question, who chooses the faith that saves. If MEN choose, then it's not a one-time choice, but it is as Romans 1:17 conveys, from beginning faith to ending faith.

This initial choice to place our faith in Christ for salvation has continued results. We continue to have faith in Christ for salvation. Saving faith is not just some temporary emotion. We don't just temporarily place our faith in Christ for salvation. Saving faith is rooted in Christ and we continue to trust in Him for salvation throughout our lives.

Do you really believe Judas was never saved? In Jn6:70, Jesus said He chose ALL TWELVE of the Disciples. In Jn15:16, Jesus chose them and ordained they bear fruit that remains. Now return to Jn6:67-70 --- to Peter's protest "Oh no we won't leave, we know You're the Messiah!" --- Jesus holds up Judas.

I believe that Judas was never saved. An unclean, unbelieving devil is not saved. (John 6:64,70,71; 13:10,11) Judas was hand picked like the other disciples but his position was temporary (Jesus knew what was going on all along). Jesus was not fooled. Judas was chosen as an apostle, but obviously not for salvation. He did not bear fruit and his fruit did not remain. (John 15:16) He would betray Jesus and fulfill Scripture. We see the bad fruit of Judas in (John 12:2-8) Judas was a thief in charge of the money given to the apostles. If Judas was truly one of Jesus' sheep, then he would have never perished or been snatched out of the hand of Jesus (John 10:27,28)

Why? "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So Jesus chose Judas that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Him all along. (John 6:64) If Judas was saved, then why did Jesus call him a devil?

Please tell us how Jesus is NOT saying "ANY of you CAN leave, one (Judas!) already is!"? James very much believed a truly-saved person could become unsaved; if anyone wanders from the faith, but another leads him back, then he'll be saved again! James5:19-20!

Is that what James was teaching? That's one interpretation. Two other interpretations are: The wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16) In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about his human life. The physical symptoms of this were that He sweat blood, and needed to be strengthened, Luke 22:42-44. The remedy was that an angel came down and strengthened Him. The same language is used in Revelation, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died" Revelation 16:3. Every living soul (creatures) in the sea is every whole being in its entirety that previously lived in the sea. If James is teaching that a person who is genuinely saved can lose their salvation, and then get saved a second time, then how would that be in harmony with your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31? "It's impossible to renew them," "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" if they lose their salvation? So James says it's possible to be saved again after you lose your salvation but the author of Hebrews says that it's not possible?

Also, sin can deceive to death --- James1:14-16 --- conspicuously using "thanatos death and Hell"...

While sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer (John 3:16,18, 5;24; Acts 10:43; 13:39) it can lead to physical death.

Not by good works, but by faith.

Amen! Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of our salvation.

Two things about that passage --- what does "race so as to WIN" mean?

How can you race to win the free gift of eternal life? A free gift is something that you accept, not race to win. That's not a free gift if there are strings attached. A prize is not the same thing as a free gift.

And in verse 27, what does Paul mean by saying "HE HIMSELF could be disqualified/rejected/unapproved"?

For the prize, not the free gift of eternal life, but of course Paul was not unapproved and he knew that he would not be. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8) Jesus Christ was clearly in Paul. He did not fail the test in 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Note that "adokimos" (disqualified/unapproved) appears also in 2Cor13:5, where we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in Christ that we not be disqualified...

Different passage, different context. The test is to see if Christ is in you, unless you have failed the test. The ESV reads - unless indeed you fail to meet the test, which means they did not lose their salvation but never had it.

"Loss of salvation" is very clear in 2Pet1:5-11,

2 Peter 1:10 has no mention of re-election, or losing election. It only says to make our calling and election sure. As we pursue the qualities mentioned by Peter in (vv. 5-7) we will not stumble into doubt, questioning, or backsliding, but enjoy full assurance of our salvation. A person who pursues these listed virtues will also enjoy an abundant entrance, a full rich reward in the future life. I find it interesting that the term fall away/stumble was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away" (see Matthew 26:33) but they did not lose their salvation. They may have stumbled but they did not lose their salvation. I certainly don't see the words "loss of salvation" in this passage.

and 2:2:20-22.

Peter notes that at some point in time, these false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ (on their terms, not His). But these false teachers had never genuinely been converted to Christ. "A dog returns... A sow...goes back." In both cases the nature of the animal is not changed. The sow returns to the mud because by nature it is still a sow. The change was merely cosmetic. Chapter two starts out with a warning about false teachers, with the thought continuing throughout the chapter. They are “wells without water” (17) “for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever” (17). And when we arrive at verse 20, the subject is still false teachers. Peter said they escaped the pollutions of the world. (which was only temporary) He did not say they escaped condemnation. These men may escaped from, and outwardly reformed, with respect to, the knowledge of the truth, but yet were destitute of the grace of God. Like in Hebrews 10:39, they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

And it's clear in 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and pretty much all of Hebrews (see especially 3:6-14, 4:11, and 10:26-29!).

1 John 2:26-28 mentions nothing about loss of salvation. Verse 29 clearly states that everyone who practices righteousness is born of God. Those who are not children of God do not. (1 John 3:10) 2 John 1:8 mentions receiving a full reward, not losing our salvation. In addition to receiving eternal life, we will receive rewards and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) In verse 9, He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (believers) Unbelievers do not, “And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent” (John 5:38).

It's clear in 2Cor11:3. I could go on, with literally dozens of similar verses...

No mention of loss of salvation in 2 Corinthians 11:3 either. In a large group of professing Christians, you can't always know who the unbelievers mixed in are and who will fall prey to believing in a different Jesus or a different gospel. Genuine believers neither have a different Jesus or a different gospel. Do any of your similar verses actually say that a really "saved" person can really "lose their salvation?" I'm yet to find that wording.

What did Paul mean in Col3:24, "the reward of the inheritance"?

Rewards in addition to receiving eternal life. Believers will not only receive eternal life, but will also receive eternal compensation for their efforts.

How about Philip2:16? Paul is judging his own success in terms of how his followers persevere in salvation, isn't he?

Paul mentions nothing here about believers not persevering or losing their salvation. Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13,14) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (1 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Please read 2Tim1:12-14; God guards what we entrust to Him, and by the Spirit we guard the eternal life that God entrusts to us.

Nothing is mentioned here about us guarding eternal life so that we don't lose it. We are kept by the power of God (not our power) through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

Those in Matt7:21-23 might well have "never been saved".

That is correct. I NEVER knew you.

But those in Rev3:14-22, were. Laodicea was in the same position as those in 2Pet2:20-22, who escaped the defilements through the true saved knowledge of Jesus, but are [b]worse now that they have turned away than before they were saved.

Peter never said they were "saved" in 2 Peter 2:20-22. Nothing is mentioned about "loss of salvation" in Revelation 3:14-22.

True; I'd love to hear your thoughts on the thread I started on "what is salvation".

If I ever have a chance to get to it. This thread is keeping me very busy.

[mailmandan]

It's so much more than that.

Becoming saved is not much more than that on our part. We accept Him through faith and He saves us.

In Romans6 Paul conveys that we have to DIE; united with Christ in His death, our old selves die to sin. And we are made alive --- "If anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old is passing away, behold all has become new (new things have come)". 2Cor5:17.

Do we cause this or does God? This isn't all about us.

Salvation is Jesus truly indwelling the believer, a communion, fellowship, between two sentient beings. A fellowship of love, between "Lord/Master", and "willing-slave". Romans6:22!

This is the result of having been saved through faith. Now all this becomes a reality for the believer.

And yet --- see Eph4:22-24; we are required to "lay aside the old man and put on the new man, and be renewed in the spirit of our mind", constantly!

Yes, because we are saved, not to become saved.

Would you agree that "God keeps us THROUGH our faith"?

Absolutely. Either we have faith in Christ to save us or else we don't. What are we trusting in? Jesus or Jesus plus something else?

This is Peter in 1:4-5, "Protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time"...

Amen!

No. "Obey", is synonymous with "believe".

Choosing to believe is an act of obedience, not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience which follow saving faith. (good works) If obey is simply defined as believe and we do not live sinless perfect lives by perfectly obeying Him, then are we considered not to believe? There is a distinction between believing in Christ to save us and multiple acts of obedience which are the fruit of our faith.

There are only two real-estates in the Universe --- in Christ, and in sin. Jesus said, "He who is not with Me, is against Me." That's why it's important to realize salvation is a walk.

Either we are in Christ, or else we are still in our sin. This does not mean that those who are in Christ live sinless perfect lives. If we are saved, then we are with Him and if we are lost then we are against Him. Those who are saved walk with Him, but that does not mean that we are perfectly obedient.

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him".

Receive Him first, then walk in Him. Only those who have been saved through faith can walk with Him.

I think you said it well. Recognize in that, the intent of Rom8:12-14; if WE walk in the flesh, we must die; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we live.

This fits better in context. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (BELIEVERS) Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (UNBELIEVERS) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

His power, our faith.
Right; we mostly agree.

Praise God!

Well, I don't think He meant "Last-Supper/Communion"; they had just seen Him feed the many, and wanted their bellies full. So Jesus made a mild reprimand, "don't work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life". Right. :-)

The words that Jesus spoke in John 6:53-56 are in reference to spiritual life, not cannibalism or the physical elements in the Lord's Supper. Just as we need physical food to keep our physical bodies alive, we need spiritual food to receive eternal life. (John 6:47) Jesus is that food which endures to eternal life. We receive Him through faith.

Noted Greek Scholar (graduate-level professor for years), and New Testament Commentator A.T.Robertson said on Eph2:8, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours".

Amen!

Note how an exact equality is issued in Romans5, "SO THEN / EVEN SO". In exactly the same measure as came condemnation to all men, also came justification to life to all men. But verse 17 says "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and (who receive) the gift of righteousness shall reign with Christ", shall be saved.

We receive the gift of righteousness through faith, based on Christ's finished work of redemption. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. (vs 19)

Grace is God's part, faith is ours; and from beginning faith, to ending faith.

Yes, from beginning to end we trust in Jesus Christ as the only means of our salvation. Salvation is not probation and is not based on our performance.

"Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in this; as you do you will save yourselves." 1Tim4:16.
"By your endurance, save your souls." Lk21:19.

Perseverance in believing accompanies genuine conversion. Perseverence is a proof of genuine conversion. Notice in Hebrews 3:14, For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Notice the wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." In John 2:19, we read, ..for if they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE CONTINUED with us.. Now we don't literally save ourselves, Jesus saves us, but by our faith which perseveres, we save ourselves by trusting in the One who does really save us, along with others who accept the truth of sound teaching and trust in Him for salvation as well.

[mailmandan]

The bible says that it is HOPE that is trusting Christ for salvation! (in the future tense)

This hope is certain assurance, not wishful thinking, for future tense salvation, which is glorification. How many who are justified will be glorified? (Romans 8:30)

We are saved through obedience to the gospel.

Your idea of obedience to the gospel equates to salvation by works. In Romans 10:16, we see: But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16) but you want to turn "obey the gospel" into obey a list of works and base salvation on your performance. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. It's not a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish. It simply sets forth Christ crucified and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in Him alone for salvation.

There is no salvation that does not rely on our continuing faithfulness.

Continuing faith or faithfulness? If we must be faithful "enough" in addition to having faith in Christ to save us, then just how faithful do we need to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand? So if our salvation depends on our performance, then it no longer depends on Christ's finished work of redemption. So how many good works must you accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:21)

We have a choice whether we walk in that power we have received. It is ...His grace (power) ..our faith. We must choose daily. We must take up our cross daily. As Paul said...I die daily. Your viewpoint completely negates this reality so that I wonder what you are talking about when you say "grace". Your viewpoint sounds very gnostic. Where is the reality?

We have a choice to either believe/trust in Jesus for salvation or not. (John 3:18) If we don't, then walking with Jesus, choosing to take up our cross daily, die daily is futile. This is what we are saved FOR, NOT BY. You continue to put the cart before the horse and you deny your complete need for Christ to save you. You are trying to help Him save you. Grace is God's unmerited favor and it also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age. There is power in God's grace. Your viewpoint sounds very Phariseetical, the only difference is, you have help to now work for and earn your salvation, where the Pharisees believe they did it all by themselves.

I am talking about good deeds done IN THE POWER OF CHRIST. We are not talking about boy scout deeds. As we abide in HIS power we will do the works of Christ.

I am talking about the same good deeds, not boy scout deeds. As we abide in Him, we will produce much fruit. We are doing the works of Christ because we are saved, not to become saved.

Our works in His power are works unto salvation.

Our works in His power are works done as a result of our salvation. We are saved through faith, not works, then we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Saved FIRST then unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You have it backwards. So how many works must you accomplish in order to help Jesus save you? We are saved FOR good works NOT by good works.

Our works without His power are dead works. As we DO what Christ commands, we show our faithfulness to Him. Only doers will be justified not just "believers". To have faith is to do!!!!!

We are made alive in Christ, by grace we are saved through faith, then we do what Christ commands (though not perfectly) after we have been saved through faith. Only believers are doers. To have faith results in doing. Faith is the root and doing is the fruit of our salvation. You mix these up and create works salvation. Your faith is in WHAT YOU DO to receive salvation and not solely in what Christ has already done to save you. That is not believing in Christ for salvation but is believing in yourself.

Imagine seeing a little child on the street with a bus approaching at high speed. We can think...it would be good if I or someone rescued that child. But unless we actually run and help that child the child will die! So thinking about something and doing something are 2 different things. The child cannot be saved by thinking it would be right to save him. No, the child is saved by DOING what our heart tells us. So it is with us. We receive the grace that would make us a saint IF we are faithful ONLY to Christ. But alas, the cares of this world creep in and the potential saintliness goes unrealized. This happens more often that not! and especially in this evil time of unbelief and selfish individualism.

We show our faith by our works. Show, not establish. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Being faithful, producing good works comes as a result of being saved through faith, but we are not sinless and perfect.

Those who have not yet figured out that we need to help one another EVERY DAY in order to bear a constant fruit for the Lord, have yet to experience the power of God in any depth. We must PRACTICE our faith or lose it. (use it or lose it). We must crucify the flesh or be stuck in it. That is the reality.

These are empty words for those who don't BELIEVE. A. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES (Romans 1:16) B. Bearing fruit for the Lord is what genuine believers do because they are saved, not to become saved. We don't skip A and go right to B. Believers PRACTICE righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10) Our faith is not lost in Christ. We must believe in Him for salvation or else be stuck in our sins (Acts 10:43)

[episkopos]

"Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

If even one of Jesus' chosen ones can fail....well, most of us get the point!

[mailmandan]

My response:

How can one be faithful without deeds?

How can one produce good deeds without faith?

Most (almost all) Christians spend sunday repenting of what they have been doing all week (weak).

Are you the judge? You speak for most (almost all) Christians?

What saves us is RESPONDING to the call of Christ....mental assent or holding a doctrinal position means nothing unless one MOVES and does something about the call.

Moving to do something means nothing without genuine saving faith in Christ for salvation. Trusting in Christ for salvation goes beyond mere mental assent belief to certain facts about Christ.

We are called on to repent, seek, ask, knock, be diligent, do what is right, be obedient, persevere...etc. That is something we DO. Not just agree with.

What is our motivation for what we do? To serve the Lord out of love or try to earn our salvation in unbelief? Who said that believers just agree with this and do nothing for the Lord?

If I am starving and I am given bread as a gift...that gift is useless unless I eat it. So the saving part is not just being given bread.

We accept the free gift of eternal life through faith. Doing nothing with it by refusing to believe is rejecting the gift in unbelief.

There is a story of a young boy in the Warsaw ghetto who cried with hunger all night in the street until someone threw a piece of bread to him. The next morning they found the boy dead while trying to reach for the bread. He hadn't the strength to reach it, so he died. That sums up the plight of most of us in the rich western world. But with us, it is spiritual slackness. Prov. 26:15 "The sluggard buries his hand in the dish. He is too lazy to bring it back to his mouth."

I guess that everyone is lazy except you.

[episkopos]

"Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

If even one of Jesus' chosen ones can fail....well, most of us get the point!

Judas was once clean. But his character got the best of him.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Here we see the conditional NOW together with the way we CONTINUE to be clean...by abiding in Him.

The time of salvation is always NOW...it is never a done deal that one can stray away and still be in the same condition as those who don't. The prodigal son was DEAD until he came to his senses and repented.

[mailmandan]

I would suggest that to love Christ and keep His commandments is faith!

Is done "out of faith." Our faith in Christ for salvation is established before we keep His commandments. We receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us when we were saved through faith. Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Faith is the root and loving Christ and keeping His commandments is the fruit. Faith works through love. To say this "is" faith is to say that fruit "is" the tree. A good tree produces good fruit, but the fruit is not the tree itself.

[episkopos]

A "saving faith in Christ for salvation?" as in..."See here Lord...I am placing my saving faith in You for salvation in you at this present time" "I now receive this unconditional time-limited guarantee of no-responsibility for all time and it is now mine." "I place all my failings now in your hands and declare my deficiencies as yours!" " I claim all your benefits as mine" Amen?????

The image I get of this attitude is Pilate washing his hands to absolve himself of any future responsibility.

Who decides which faith is saving faith, as compared with ordinary faith? Who determines when a momentary faith is enough to cancel out all future faithlessness and unbelief? Why doesn't the bible use the phrase..."saving faith", but rather just pistis (faith/faithfulness)?