Once saved, always saved?

[episkopos]

We who are born again in the Spirit perceive Jesus Christ by His presence. But if we stray too far away, His power goes dim in us. We are empowered by proximity to Him. (Our spirits are like solar powered devices.)

This is the best kept secret in the world. A Christian is to operate in His power (grace). So as we get closer to Jesus and learn to follow Him.....we grow in grace (power). As we get very close...we melt into Him so as to ONLY do what He does. IN this way it is no longer we but Christ doing the living.

I hear a lot about people claiming to be "saved" by something Jesus did in the past....but I hear practically no one who is walking in THAT power.

But this is how we are saved...by walking in His powerful presence and grace and remaining there by faith and faithfulness. Walk in the light...not a figurative light according to carnal reasonings...no...an actual light that penetrates the soul and illumines everything we see. He lights our path...literally! When we enter where Jesus abides we see this glorious light...always....as long as we remain close to Him. This walk is one of glory AND salvation.

[Gadgeteer]

So you agree that we are saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works and that faith is the root and good works are the fruit of our salvation. Praise the Lord!

Right. It's because of what salvation is --- "Christ in you", Him doing our good works through us.

Understanding how we are saved to begin with is more important than believing if we can or can't lose our salvation. If we are not saved in the first place, then it does not matter what else we believe.

Agreed.

If knowing the way of righteousness means they must have been converted, then that means they were justified, and in Romans 8:30, Paul said, ...and whom He justified, these He also glorified, not just some or most.

Please tell me how "escaped defilements through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" is not saved in chapter 2, while "escaped corruption through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" is saved in chapter 1 --- how do you make the same words in adjacent chapters mean opposite things?

How could they have KNOWN the way of righteousness, but TURNED AWAY FROM IT (using "epistrepho", a true spiritual turning)? And the most important question --- why are they now worse off than before?

You're proposing:
1. Not saved, destined for Hell.
2. Escaped defilements, but only superficially; not saved, destined for Hell.
3. Re-entangled in defilements and overcome; but "overcome" doesn't matter, they're STILL not saved and STILL destined for Hell.

Please tell me how #3 is worse than #1? There's only one Hell, isn't there?

...but --- if they were SAVED, then they are now worse than BEFORE they were saved! That makes sense!

but Just like these Hebrews in Hebrews 10:26 who received the knowledge of the truth, yet deliberately rejected Christ. They drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

No --- if WE continue sinning --- it's a warning for us. That man in verse 29 is US if we don't heed the warning!

I'd love to see your thoughts on post 263, the commentary on the entire letter of Hebrews...

Defilements or pollutions refers to what is on the outside. But true believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Corruption is much deeper than defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Defilements or pollutions is not the same Greek word as corruption. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires.

Here's something you miss --- if we've received a completely new nature, then why do we sin? If the "new nature" is a done deal, then can you address Eph4:22-24?

"Lay aside the old man (which is being corrupted) ...put on the new man (which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness and truth) ...be renewed in the spirit of your mind..." Eph4:22-24

Why does he tell us to do, what has already been done? It's not a "done deal", is it? It's a constant choice --- He may give us the way OUT of sin, but He still lets us choose! 1Cor10:13!

They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. In regards to this knowledge of Jesus, it is a more complete knowledge of the truth. But knowledge alone, even the more intimate knowledge of epignosis, does not automatically save a person, although it will make them more accountable at the judgment of unbelievers if they deliberately reject this knowledge after knowing it. For epignosis to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge which results in a true change of heart. In 2 Peter 1:1, we see, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. This was not said of those in 2 Peter 2:20.

But it's the same words; the only difference is "corruptions/defilements". You've made absolutely no case for those in 2:20-22 not ever having been saved.

They temporarily escaped the defilements or pollutions of the world, which is on the outside. You can have a form of godliness, yet not truly escape the corruption of the world and be converted. Bad soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People with a shallow faith that "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

You are absolutely altering Peter's words; they escaped, but were enticed back into defilements and were OVERCOME. You're changing that into "were always really overcome".

The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. None of these shallow ground hearers produce "fruit," for they soon die before growing to sufficient maturity, as a plant, to produce fruit.

What are your thoughts on what I said about "shallow ground" and "good soil"? It connects directly with Heb6:7-8, doesn't it?

Lost people live "after the flesh" and suffer spiritual death as a result. Saved people have the indwelling Holy Spirit which serves to mortify ("put to death") the "deeds of the body" and thus deliver us into spiritual life. Paul had already said, So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do they? Paul also said, "SET YOUR MINDS on the things above, not on things on the earth (fleshly things)!" Col3:2. What did he mean? Is it a choice?

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So you say Paul is telling believers they will die spiritually if they live according to the flesh, where is the dividing line for that since we are not sinless and perfect? Do we perfectly set out minds on spiritual things, or when we sin, and we do and will, is that considered setting your minds on fleshly things? In Romans 7:20-25, Paul said, Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Your interpretation of Romans 8:13 leaves the believer with uncertainty. Backslide, crossed the line, going to die now?

Romans 7 cannot be divorced from chapters 6 and 8. Chapter 6 is "born again", stop submitting yourselves to sin but submit yourselves to God as those alive from the dead. Chapter 7 is the war between the new nature and the old sinful nature; and chapter 8 is the solution. WALK in Him, using the power of the Spirit to overcome sin.

Contrast the idea of "overcoming sin", with "being overcome BY sin", as Peter said in 2:2:20-22!

Romans 8:9-10 says, But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. So where do we draw the line in the sand and say, my walk is insufficient and so I crossed back over from life into death? John 5:24 says that we have passed from death into life, but I don't see a verse in the Bible that states the reversal. John says he that believes and he that does not believe (John 3:18)

That's the point --- in no way could Eph4:22-24 admonish "lay aside the old corrupt man, put on the regenerated man, BE REGENERATED in your spirit", if it was not a constant choice! Can you argue with this?

He was speaking of repentance at conversion. We repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same experience. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.. (Acts 3:19) If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts 11:17,18)

Please recognize we do sin, we the saved. John says in 1:1:8-9 that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves; but if we CONFESS our sin He forgives and cleanses us.

"Confession" and "repentance" is not a one-time-event, not a done deal! It's a constant walk! To abide in belief, is to abide in Jesus, is to abide in repentance! Can you explain these verses with any other view?

Christians may backslide at times, but they do not live in a continuous willful habitual lifestyle of sin. (1 John 3:9,10) That's not a Christian, but that does describe the unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21) None of us are going to waltz through the gates of Heaven as sinless and perfect in of ourselves, but we don't waltz through the gates of Heaven living like the devil, that's not a Christian. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say, I walked in sin too much so now I won't get to Heaven? How high is the bar raised?

Hebrews10:26 very conspicuously uses "WE" --- if we do this, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us. It's the same "WE" in Rom8:12-14; if WE walk in the flesh we must die. It's the same warning in James1:14-16 --- "Do not be deceived, beloved brethren!" James uses "thanatos-death", fully implying Hell!

In Ephesians 4:30, notice, And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13,14) Those in Hebrews 10:29 insulted the Spirit by willfully rejecting the knowledge of the truth. They did much more than just grieve the Spirit. We can grieve the Spirit at times, yet we are still sealed in Him unto the day of redemption.

UnTO --- not unTIL --- you said that right. If we grieve the Spirit, if we insult the Spirit, if we resist the Spirit, will He remain with us? No!

Those who insult the Spirit draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39) Big difference.

Hebrews 6:9 is another "positive assurance" (like 10:39): "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way..."

Though we are speaking of falling from salvation --- yet we encourage you to maturity and perseverance. Hebrews 10 says "WE" --- it's a real warning to us.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and was beat over the head with works salvation and losing salvation. I'm not hearing you teach works salvation, just loss of salvation. I've been challenged many times with these and other Scriptures. I'm yet to find a verse in the Bible that says a really "saved" person can really "lose their salvation" although there are verses that "sound" like they teach that, though they don't actually say it.

Then tell me what James meant in 1:14-16, and about the man in Jms5:19-20. How can one of YOU wander from truth he's never had?

What about the man in 2Pet1:9? How could he have been "purified from sins", if he was never saved? And in Hebrews10:29, how could he have been "sanctified by Jesus' blood", without salvation?

Look at Romans14:15 and 1Cor8:11; how could we "DESTROY" a brother for whom Christ died, if that's not speaking salvationally?

In Matt23:13, Jesus speaks of those who ARE ENTERING God's kingdom --- has to mean "saved". But the Pharisees "stop/shut-off-Heaven" from them. Can you paint that into "can't-really-lose-salvation"?

Even if I was convinced that a genuine Christian could lose their salvation, I would continue to serve the Lord just as I have over the years. If we are saved through believing/trusting in Christ for salvation, then we would have to some how stop believing/trusting in Him for salvation, right?

Exactly that; please read Rom11:18-23 --- it is arrogant (in Paul's words!) to think we can NOT be cut off for unbelief!

My belief in His finished work of redemption as the only means of my salvation is too engrained in me and I am too convinced.

As long as that translates into a dedication for communion and intimacy between you and Jesus, filled with the Spirit, then we really have no argument; my concern is for those who become "lukewarm". Rev3:14-22!

Also flesh and blood did not reveal this saving truth to me either, God did. ...and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30) All of them. If we are not glorified one day, it's because we were never justified.

I've thrown a rather large amount of verses at you; hope you look them up (those I didn't quote directly), to see if I was right or completely off-base. I pray that if you are able to see Scripture through my eyes, such sight will only strengthen you in Christ and encourage you in faith.

And if you're inclined to answer post 263 on "All of Hebrews", I'd love to see through your eyes about what I said.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

I'm certainly not a 5 point Calvinist. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who is going to Heaven and who is going to hell. All are invited. God is not willing that any should perish.

I'm glad of that. Otherwise, "God is love" would not be true for the majority...

Take away the imputed righteousness of Christ and what does our righteousness amount to? The answer is filthy rags. We are certainly not righteous in of ourselves. Our faith is accounted for righteousness. Genuine works of righteousness that we produce is done through the Spirit, not through the flesh.

Amen. :-)

His righteousness does become ours, but it was imputed to us. God sees us as sinless and perfect "positionally" based on the righteousness of Christ, but "practically" we, in of ourselves are not sinless and perfect. I believe the soils represent their hearts and were they properly prepared to receive the seed or not. The rocky soil had no sufficient depth, so we see no root which results in no fruit. I don't believe that represents salvation.

Can you argue with "soil-label the consequence of their action" (Hebrews6:7-8)?

There are five crowns mentioned in Scripture. All of them are imperishable. How can we race to win the free gift of eternal life? Is eternal life a gift or a prize? (Romans 6:23) I find it strange that Paul would be concerned about losing his salvation, when in 2 Timothy 4:8 he said, Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. All runners run, but only one receives the prize? So just about everyone loses their salvation?

No, each runs his own personal race. RE "prize", see Col3:24, "the reward of the inheritance".

Paul runs as an Olympic runner would run to receive a gold medal in the Olympic games, but to take what he said too far, is to make eternal life something that we work for and earn. In Hebrews 12:8, But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Another translation says, you are not true sons.

But can you read Heb12:9 and not perceive a choice to live eternally?

I'm yet to hear Episkopos say that we are saved through faith in Christ and not by good works. In another thread, he said that Grace is a gift of God that leads us to do the works unto salvation. We are saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto good works, yet he sees these good works as being the basis of receiving salvation along with our faith. He denies that salvation is the gift of God. His arguments are similiar to what I was taught in Catholicism, in regards to the roles of faith and works in salvation. I am deeply concerned about him. I asked him if Christ's finished work of redemption is the basis of our salvation or our performance (good works) and he said both. I asked him what would he say to Jesus if he was at the gates of Heaven and Jesus asked him why He should let him in, and he mentioned nothing about Christ's finished work of redemption, only what he had done. In our discussions, he has insulted me and has made false accusations about me and even accused me of teaching gnosticism. He does not express the love of Christ towards me at all, as did the others. He never claims me as a brother in Christ, as did others who clearly taught that we are saved through faith and not by works, even though we disagreed about our security in Christ. I challenge him to see whether or not he really has been saved through faith to begin with. I'm not trying to sound mean spirited at all, but I am direct and I don't beat around the bush when it comes to the gospel.

I can't speak for him; I do claim you as a brother, for we claim the same Savior.

From my conversations with Epi, I hear him say that he does trust in His good works that he accomplishes for salvation. I have not heard him say that he trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Faith which produces not works is a dead bogus faith to begin with. Nothing I bring, ALL of HIM. I need to hear Epi say that.

Well, Episkopos --- you agree with us, don't you, that a saved faith produces good works, not vice-versa?

Amen! So we claim each other as saved brothers in Christ based upon our faith in Christ for salvation, yet Epi has called me a false teacher and does not claim me as a brother. There is a serious problem here. He seems to believe that those who teach OSAS must not really be saved or will all surely lose their salvation. I don't hear you saying that and I don't hear any other believers that don't agree with about OSAS saying that either. We all praise the Lord that we are brothers in Christ, yet something is missing with Epi.

There's only one of the three OSAS positions which is by definition "salvation-busting"; Antinomianism, or "Backslidden-but-saved". If one is backslidden, then he is walking in sin; and Jesus and the Spirit do not indwell a practicing sinner.

Praise God! I appreciate your kind attitude. Even though we didn't come to a complete agreement on everything, you still showed the love of Christ towards me and I certainly hope that I did the same.

You have indeed --- and you are a blessing to me. I pray that I will continue to be so to you and everyone.

[Gadgeteer]

Did he say, my son was saved, lost his salvation and then was saved all over again? No.

Yes! "Alive AGAIN"! Again, means again!

The NASB says, was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found. That's not the same.

Look at "came to his senses" (Lk15:17); that connects with 2Tim2:25-26. The son started out in his father's house, then he left, and then he returned. Hebrews3:6 says we are Christ's house [b]if we hold fast firm until the end!

The ESV does not say alive "again" simply alive. Your argument is inconclusive. We don't get saved over and over again.

The guy in James5:19-20 did!

Do you believe in multiple regenerations?

Yes! What else can Eph4:23 mean? "BE renewed in the spirit of your mind" --- be regenerated! It's not "again and again", but rather "ABIDE IN regeneration"!

What do you think Romans11:23 means, by "grafted in again"?

This post wasn't addressed to me, but I couldn't resist! :-P

[Gadgeteer]

We who are born again in the Spirit perceive Jesus Christ by His presence. But if we stray too far away, His power goes dim in us. We are empowered by proximity to Him. (Our spirits are like solar powered devices.)

Sooo --- we're powered by Sonlight????

This is the best kept secret in the world. A Christian is to operate in His power (grace). So as we get closer to Jesus and learn to follow Him.....we grow in grace (power). As we get very close...we melt into Him so as to ONLY do what He does. IN this way it is no longer we but Christ doing the living.

I hear a lot about people claiming to be "saved" by something Jesus did in the past....but I hear practically no one who is walking in THAT power.

As we have received Christ, so walk in Him, being built and established in faith, guarding ourselves against deceivers. Col2:6-8!

But this is how we are saved...by walking in His powerful presence and grace and remaining there by faith and faithfulness. Walk in the light...not a figurative light according to carnal reasonings...no...an actual light that penetrates the soul and illumines everything we see. He lights our path...literally! When we enter where Jesus abides we see this glorious light...always....as long as we remain close to Him. This walk is one of glory AND salvation.

Very good post.

:-)

[notuptome]

Yes! "Alive AGAIN"! Again, means again! Look at "came to his senses" (Lk15:17); that connects with 2Tim2:25-26. The son started out in his father's house, then he left, and then he returned. Hebrews3:6 says we are Christ's house [b]if we hold fast firm until the end! The guy in James5:19-20 did! Yes! What else can Eph4:23 mean? "BE renewed in the spirit of your mind" --- be regenerated! It's not "again and again", but rather "ABIDE IN regeneration"!

He always remained a son. He ws restored when he repented but he was not ever not a son.

What do you think Romans11:23 means, by "grafted in again"?

It is not referring to personal salvation. It is talking about Gentiles receiving the blessng promised to the Jews.

This post wasn't addressed to me, but I couldn't resist! :-P

Funny how that happens.

For the cause of Chirst
Roger

[episkopos]

Well, Episkopos --- you agree with us, don't you, that a saved faith produces good works, not vice-versa?

I disagree with the formulaic approach to salvation. It's like talking about Jesus when He's right in front of you (as if He isn't there)

A little leaven leavens the whole batch. Many people get caught up with the wording. Some understand BEYOND the wording and others don't. So to me if I use a wording that does NOT seek to tell the difference between those who understand and those who don't then I am part of the confusion.

There is no such thing as a saved faith...period. Biblical faith puts you into an immediate contact with God. But even if we walk in light that does not guarantee that we always will...

As I stated earler, even the devil started off perfect. We must be careful of pride and presumption. David said..Lord keep me from presumptuous sins...and he was a man after God's own heart.

Perfect works stem from being in the very presence of Jesus Christ. Faith is how we get to THAT place. We are being saved through abiding in His power (grace). Without Jesus we can do nothing.

[episkopos]

To mailmandan! Greetings!

It seems that you have gone from one ditch (RC doctrine) to the other (modern evangelicalism)...from one indoctrination to the next. But neither is correct. We must be set free in the Lord. There is a way that seems right to a man...

A works based salvation is a checklist salvation. I believed therefore I'm saved for all time...this is a checklist salvation.

I am espousing a constant walk salvation...never declaring WE have done enough or have yet arrived. Even Paul never claimed to have fully attained! We are called to be overcomers...how? by walking in the same power that Jesus walked in...perfectly! How do we walk this way?...by being where Jesus is...right beside Him. This is to abide in Him...in His very presence. It is impossible to sin in His presence.

But our own pre-conditioned lusts can draw us away from Him. That is, until our character with it's patient persevering and willingness to suffer help keep us from straying. We have to learn to do NOTHING but first seek His presence. FROM that presence we do the works of Christ that justify us (qualify us) to become co-reigners with Christ. We are justified to a purpose...not just justified. We were not created to be justified. But we are created to be carriers of God's glory. We are to be vessels of honour....and this takes every fiber of our being to attain to. Those who do not attain to this will become vessels of eternal dishonour.....naked and shamed. How can we escape this if we neglect so great a salvation?

Jesus doesn't say...well believed good and faithful servant...but well DONE good and faithful servant. Christianity is a means not an end. Christianity is not a destination but a WAY.

[Gadgeteer]

He always remained a son. He was restored when he repented but he was not ever not a son.

Hi, Roger. Your comments are always welcome.

So "he was always a son" --- representing someone who remained saved even when he was in the far land.

...laying with prostitutes (Lk15:30), drunk and carousing, but he was still saved. Now, Paul said in 1Cor6:9-11 that anyone who does things like the Prodigal did, "Will not inherit the kingdom of God". Said it again in Eph5:5-6, "No immoral man has ANY INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, it is on account of THESE THINGS the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Said it again in Gal5:19-21; "shall not inherit".

...but somehow you find a "waiver", a "pass" --- an exception. Can you please tell me how?

It is not referring to personal salvation. It is talking about Gentiles receiving the blessing promised to the Jews.

Based on what? It says "branch-ES", plural; can't be "Israel-as-a-PEOPLE", 'cause that's singular. It reads to me like He's speaking to individuals, about individual Gentiles ("you a wild branch") and individual Jews ("natural branches"). How do you make it not say "you a Gentile cannot be cut off for unbelief", or "the Jews will be restored if they do not continue in unbelief"?

Thanx for helping me understand how you perceive these verses.

Funny how that happens.

Heh heh --- it's a public forum, I don't mind if anything I say is answered by anyone; hope no one minded me answering.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

I disagree with the formulaic approach to salvation. It's like talking about Jesus when He's right in front of you (as if He isn't there).

Hi, "Episkopos". Not sure I understand you; there is no "formula", but Scriptures like Eph2:8 --- "by grace have you been saved through faith, not by works lest anyone boast". Similar in Titus3:5-6; "God saved us, not on the basis of deeds we did in righteousness"...

A little leaven leavens the whole batch. Many people get caught up with the wording. Some understand BEYOND the wording and others don't. So to me if I use a wording that does NOT seek to tell the difference between those who understand and those who don't then I am part of the confusion.

You seemed to be mirroring James in chapter 2, where "salvation is by grace through faith, not works; the works are the consequence of the saved union between Creator (Jesus!) and creature (you and me!)." Isn't that your perception?

There is no such thing as a saved faith...period.

How do you understand 1Jn5:11-13? "He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God has not the life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life".

What did John mean?

Biblical faith puts you into an immediate contact with God. But even if we walk in light that does not guarantee that we always will...

Perhaps; but while we walk in the light, we know we have saved faith.

As I stated earlier, even the devil started off perfect. We must be careful of pride and presumption. David said..Lord keep me from presumptuous sins...and he was a man after God's own heart.

All of that is true; but look at how Paul worded it:
"I KNOW whom I have believed, and am confident that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day. Retain the standard of sound words ...in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure entrusted to you." 2Tim1:12-14.

Perfect works stem from being in the very presence of Jesus Christ. Faith is how we get to THAT place. We are being saved through abiding in His power (grace). Without Jesus we can do nothing.

True; but it's not a tenuous thing, "you can KNOW you have eternal life", John said.

I believe John! And I know Whom I have believed, Jesus!!!

[Neanias]

And eternal life is to know the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ.

Eternal life is a type of life, it is the life of God. What we have handled, what we have seen, the word of life, we share with you that your fellowship might be with us, and our fellowship is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.

THAT is eternal life, to be in communion with God. We may remove ourselves from this communion, or passively let the world do so. Thus the necessity for abiding.

I know it wasn't directed at me... This is my understanding of it. Unless we are in communion with him, we are not walking in this eternal life.

[glad4mercy]

Hi, Roger. Your comments are always welcome.

So "he was always a son" --- representing someone who remained saved even when he was in the far land.

...laying with prostitutes (Lk15:30), drunk and carousing, but he was still saved. Now, Paul said in 1Cor6:9-11 that anyone who does things like the Prodigal did, "Will not inherit the kingdom of God". Said it again in Eph5:5-6, "No immoral man has ANY INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, it is on account of THESE THINGS the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Said it again in Gal5:19-21; "shall not inherit".

...but somehow you find a "waiver", a "pass" --- an exception. Can you please tell me how?
Based on what? It says "branch-ES", plural; can't be "Israel-as-a-PEOPLE", 'cause that's singular. It reads to me like He's speaking to individuals, about individual Gentiles ("you a wild branch") and individual Jews ("natural branches"). How do you make it not say "you a Gentile cannot be cut off for unbelief", or "the Jews will be restored if they do not continue in unbelief"?

Thanx for helping me understand how you perceive these verses. Heh heh --- it's a public forum, I don't mind if anything I say is answered by anyone; hope no one minded me answering.

:-)

It is my understanding that the prodigal son represented the publicans and sinners who were coming to Jesus and receiving His Word. They were not saved, then lost, then saved again. They were children of Abraham according to the flesh, who were being saved by hearing Jesus' Word and believing on Him.

Regarding the sonship and adoption of believers, I will agree that I don't think God is quick to cast His adopted children away. He's not sitting up there ready to kick us out of the kingdom every time we stumble. God is merciful, gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive. If we stumble God will convict, and if we do not immedietely repent, He will discipline us as children. It should be hard for a true believer to kick against the pricks of God. If it is easy for us to sin, something is definitely wrong.

Psalm 32: 3-4-When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

The danger is when we disregard, resist, or faint at His chastening hand. The danger is when a person trifles with Gods kindness, or turns the grace of God into a license to sin. God is not mocked. So there is a serenity that comes from knowing that God is longsuffering to us-ward, and it is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom and yet there is a holy reverance that knows that God will hold us all the more accountable who have received His Grace. Blessed assurance mixed with godly reverance, (holy fear) is what we need.

[glad4mercy]

To mailmandan! Greetings!

It seems that you have gone from one ditch (RC doctrine) to the other (modern evangelicalism)...from one indoctrination to the next. But neither is correct. We must be set free in the Lord. There is a way that seems right to a man...

A works based salvation is a checklist salvation. I believed therefore I'm saved for all time...this is a checklist salvation.

I am espousing a constant walk salvation...never declaring WE have done enough or have yet arrived. Even Paul never claimed to have fully attained! We are called to be overcomers...how? by walking in the same power that Jesus walked in...perfectly! How do we walk this way?...by being where Jesus is...right beside Him. This is to abide in Him...in His very presence. It is impossible to sin in His presence.

But our own pre-conditioned lusts can draw us away from Him. That is, until our character with it's patient persevering and willingness to suffer help keep us from straying. We have to learn to do NOTHING but first seek His presence. FROM that presence we do the works of Christ that justify us (qualify us) to become co-reigners with Christ. We are justified to a purpose...not just justified. We were not created to be justified. But we are created to be carriers of God's glory. We are to be vessels of honour....and this takes every fiber of our being to attain to. Those who do not attain to this will become vessels of eternal dishonour.....naked and shamed. How can we escape this if we neglect so great a salvation?

Jesus doesn't say...well believed good and faithful servant...but well DONE good and faithful servant. Christianity is a means not an end. Christianity is not a destination but a WAY.

In salvation, regeneration is a finished, ( in the past), event, we are presently being saved (kept) by the power of God through faith, and we will be glorified in the future when Christ returns. So there is a sense in which we are already saved, there is a sense in which we are being saved, and there is a future aspect of salvation, which is when we are glorified with Him, when we will see Him just as He is.

Ephesians 1: 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[glad4mercy]

Christianity is not a destination but a WAY.

I like this! Christianith is the Way!

[mailmandan]

We have this treasure in earthen vessels. It;s about being worthy to contain HIS glory. That IS our glory! God decides when the character is sufficient to inherit life. That is what the devil lacks....good character.

Are we saved by grace through faith or through character? Is it about our character being sufficient enough to save us or Christ's finished work of redemption being sufficient enough to save us?

Even the disciples said that salvation was impossible. I am echoing Jesus' answer to them. When we operate by faith we always see His miraculous power at work. That is the experience of faith. Do you think "saving faith" does LESS than that?

The disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:25,26) Saving faith trusts in Jesus for salvation, not in ourselves. We see His miraculous power at work as we operate by faith, but either we are trusting in Him for salvation or else we are not.

Until the race is finished the jury is still out, so to speak.

That's your conclusion, since you trust in your performance to save you. How much is enough??? The jury is not still out for those who truly have been saved through faith..and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, (1 John 5:13) Do you deny that we can know that we have eternal life?

We seem to agree that growth in Christ is good.

Absolutely!

I stress that it is necessary....you get riled up since you think it is NOT necessary.

I get riled up when you turn the quality of our growth into the means of our salvation, which means that Christ's finished work of redemption is the insufficient means of our salvation.

You call that works salvation. It is as if you have found a way to ignore or explain away huge tracts of the bible to keep your present understanding.

If salvation is based on our works that we accomplish and not solely on Christ's finished work of redemption, then yes, that is works salvation.

Why did Jesus issue commandments? Is He into works?

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. He is into works as the fruit, not the root of our salvation.

If faith alone is your credo why are you not put off by the works sounding enjoining of Peter to ADD to that faith our own qualities. If I say anything of the like but not use the exact biblical wording...you freak out!

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, not faith that remains alone in producing good works, which demonstrates that it's a bogus faith. I am all for adding these qualities to our faith. I'm not against salvation based performance, just performance based salvation. Your turn our best efforts to add these qualities to our faith into the means of our salvation, which turns Christ into an insufficient Savior.

You have selected a verse that contradicts your position yet you are not moved by it. Can you say immunization?

I see no contradiction. Can you say, Jesus saves?

Only God can judge a man. We cannot declare ourselves to be something before we have finished the race.

Therefore HAVING BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1) Did God say this or is this man's opinion? So God declares us justified by faith and this is before the race is finished. He also said, ..and who He justified, these He also glorified. Do you deny this? I am not declaring myself to be some special runner above everyone else before the race is finished, only justified by faith.

If a man declares that he is the best pilot in the world....before he has won the competition....the onus is not on the others to believe him or else it is THEY who think highly of themselves. You see upside down here again. I think you are an interesting person.

I certainly don't declare myself to be the best runner above everyone else in the race and that's not the issue. The competition is not about working for and winning the free gift of eternal life as if we earned it. I certainly don't think highly of myself. I don't see upside down because I am not trusting in my works for salvation. The race is not the Olympics of works salvation where only the gold-medalists receive eternal life and everyone else ends up in hell.