Re: Once saved, always saved?
Slug, you are my friend and we go back a long way. So I am glad we are having this discussion. I've been on both sides of this fence. And I really enjoy reading what you write. Having said that, I don't agree.
Originally Posted by Slug1
I see Israel as a type of a saved person. Were they lost in the wilderness when they tested God 3 times? Did God ever stop claiming them as his own? I know he got angry, frustrated, etc. At one point he even told Moses "these people whom YOU brought out of Egypt" and I laugh at that. But in the end, when did God cut off Israel? How much did he put up with them? How long did he call them his own?
I agree with this for the most part.
God will keep all who have chosen to accept Christ... all they have to do is endure and overcome during the entirety of that walk until they die. Any who stray away, Jesus will go after them but some continue to move away from Him as they choose to face death over life in Christ. God has told even the Body of Christ to CHASE those runners down and face them back to Him so their souls will be saved.
If chasing them didn't need to be done, then the Bible would NEVER explain to us that Jesus has to CHASE them down and bring them back to the flock, or that the Body of Christ has to chase after them and turn them back to the flock. If OSAS was even slightly true, then any of that chasing would NOT have to be done AT ALL.
Yet Jesus does go after those who have strayed away, the Bible tells the Body of Christ that they need to chase them down and face them back to the truth (flock)... the OSAS is SO false that it makes people believe that Jesus DON'T HAVE to chase down people who have gone astray.
Most that I know would say no one who continually strays has any assurance of salvation. Most would say if you leave and never repent, then you were never saved to begin with. So I don't know any who teach the doctrine as a license to sin.
That is what the OSAS teaches... stray all you want, it don't matter because salvation is secure.
Is straying and falling away the same thing? Look at what Psalms 73 says. It is interesting to me when I think about this debate.
If that had any ounce of truth... then Jesus wouldn't need to chase after those who stray and we as the Body of Christ wouldn't be told to turn people who have strayed away, to turn back. We can only turn them back, Jesus takes the time to BRING them back. Once we turn them back, then Jesus does the rest of the work and lead them through repentance and they are "RESTORED" and this is the Bible analogy of Jesus carrying a stray BACK to the flock.
73 Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2 But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
He said he almost slipped. What did he do? He didn't slip, but almost and let's look at what happened.
3 For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
He envied. Then he thought he kept himself pure in vain.
13 Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14 For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
He got bitter against God (next verses) and had been chastised (prior verses) every day.
21 When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22 Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
He was to the point that he was senseless and like a beast (demonic)! He had been turned over to Satan for whipping! Yet, through it all, what did he say next?
23 Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24 With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
God held him. He didn't slip. But he almost did. We see the same pattern in Hebrews 12 when God warns us about bitterness while being disciplined.
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Then immediately following the discipline paragraph, God says this.
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
And then gives a strong warning.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
Don't get bitter at the discipline nor at the one being disciplined. Because this is a path of slipping! Bitterness will defile you and others. Then it will lead to immorality because you see your purity as vanity. Finally, it will lead to godlessness like Esau. Then, there is no hope for you. While you may desire the blessing, you won't find it in your heart to say you did wrong. instead, you will say you were treated wrongly. That's not repentance. Esau found no room in his heart for repentance. But he still wanted the blessings.
There is also lack of growth in believers because they believe they fall away after sinning or don't understand repentance, or believe they have to keep themselves. It is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Fear of the Lord keeps us from evil.
If OSAS was true... there would be now NEED for any of this action by the Body of Chist or Jesus concerning those who have turned away.
OSAS is false and there will be people eternally separated from God, due to what that false doctrine teaches.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.