Once saved, always saved?

[Colight]

That's a "charge" that you've leveled more than once; it's baseless --- I give you precise and thorough Scriptural support, and you levy the charge to avoid engaging the verses. No disrespect meant. Throw away the blanks, and grab some real bullets (interact with Scripture verses). :-)

Satan is really good at pulling this verse or that verse
The Catholic Church based their entire position of the pope on one verse on Peter having the Keys to heaven.
Many other false teaching occur from the twisting of one verse or another.

There fore it is about SOUND DOCTRINE.
Not this verse or that verse.
This is why I revert back to what is the doctrine.
Doctrine is something that false teaching has a hard time dealing with.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This is why I really am not going to engage in a verse hunt, or engage in what does this word means or that word.
That will lead to endless posts in which nothing is learned, and it becomes a battle of wits rather than seeking a sound mind..

Your position is we can "Go too far" and lose salvation.

1* How can one go to far on a living God who loves his own attribute of faithfulness? Not possible.

You can post this passage or that..
The FACT remains GOD IS FAITHFUL, that is what he is...He will never be anything BUT faithful and he will be that way FOREVER..
So Now I have a eternally faithful God telling me.

I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb 13:5)

God is faithful, and he does not lie.
God never said:
I will never leave you as long as you are faithful and follow this check list.
For that would put glory on me to keep faithful to God.

So Because God is ETERNALLY faithful, and told me he will never leave me.
My salvation is secure and it will never be anything BUT secure, because God will forever be with me.
( Even if it is to watch me happily sin while he sharpens the barbs on his scourge for that discipline he is about to do.)

2* We can deny Christ in sin, but he an not deny us salvation.

2TIM 2:13 if we are not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.

Christ made a PROMISE, and he keeps his word.

John 3 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Christ stated Believe on the Son and we will not perish and have eternal life.
Christ stated it, he does not lie.
There was no statement in John 3 about how you have to not sin and follow some "world council of churches " Checklist. Instead it is how one must be Born of the Spirit ( one time event ) and that Spiritual birth occurs thru a one time Choice to believe on Christ.. Even if it is just his NAME {vs18}!!.

*3 We are Sealed with a down payment, that payment is the Spirit of God it self... That means the contract is written and our eternal status is secure.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

We are sealed with the spirit, therefore we are counted as +Righteous with God. This spirit will never leave us. One that is going to damnation will never have the spirit. The very existence of the spirit in our soul is proof of the guarantee of our eternal security. Now we can grieve or quench the spirit, but we can not unseal what God has sealed. To think we can is arrogance.

*4 The genetics of the Birth

When we are born again we are born of good stock. as when we are born of our parents their genes determine how we will look, act, our health, etc..
The Birth of the spirit it would be fair to look at the "gentics" of the parent of that birth. That being God.
1 pet 1

23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

The glory or none glory of man withers and fades away,
What we do on earth, good or bad is gone over time..
Yet this spirit of the word will endure FOREVER.
That is the STOCK our spiritual birth comes from.
There is nothing we can do as a flower or as a weed that will affect the genetics of this eternal birth.
Flower or weed, thru the birth of the word, we will endure forever.

* Sin is not a factor, therefore it can not be used to lose Salvation

Ps.103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Sins was judged at the Cross, they are totally removed from us.

If sins are used to judge us, then it is a lie to state they was removed from us.
God does not lie, there fore the one who says they are used to cause loss of salvation is the one in untruth.
Satan is consistently standing in heaven accusing the believer based on their sin.
Col3

1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

We are to focus on Christ, not our sins, not on making up for sins.
If we are focused on insecure salvation we are focused on our self, not Christ.
Satan as nullified us as any form of witness against him, for even we would not trust Christ with our salvation.
How can we trust Christ for any thing else.

Again I am not looking for you to go line by line and post some random verse that you think refutes each line.

I want sound doctrine from you, not random out of context verses.

[Gadgeteer]

satan is really good at pulling this verse or that verse
The Catholic Church based their entire position of the pope on one verse on Peter having the Keys to heaven.

Not if you read Greek --- "Peter" is little-stone, but upon JESUS-the-ROCK (bedrock!) He would build His church. He never built His church on anyone else.

Many other false teaching occur from the twisting of one verse or another.

I exposed your "rewrites", and you say it's me that is twisting verses???

Therefore it is about SOUND DOCTRINE.

Defined as "Whatever aligns with YOUR (Colight's) beliefs".

Not this verse or that verse.

With respect --- in other words "sound doctrine, regardless if it lines up with verses!

This is why I revert back to what is the doctrine.
Doctrine is something that false teaching has a hard time dealing with.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This is why I really am not going to engage in a verse hunt, or engage in what does this word means or that word.
That will lead to endless posts in which nothing is learned, and it becomes a battle of wits rather than seeking a sound mind..

Your position is we can "Go too far" and lose salvation.

No, NOT "my position" --- JOHN'S --- 2:1:7-9. You can't engage the verses, so you won't.

1* How can one go to far on a living God who loves his own attribute of faithfulness? Not possible.
You can post this passage or that..
The FACT remains GOD IS FAITHFUL, that is what he is...He will never be anything BUT faithful and he will be that way FOREVER..
So Now I have a eternally faithful God telling me.

And Bible verses will not dissuade you.

I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb 13:5)

God is faithful, and he does not lie.
God never said:
I will never leave you as long as you are faithful and follow this check list.
For that would put glory on me to keep faithful to God.

Yes, and "His gifts and calling are irrevocable". Rom11:29. This is all from God's side. But from our side, Scripture is replete with us becoming faithful and leaving HIM.

So Because God is ETERNALLY faithful, and told me he will never leave me.

Even in the FACE of unrepentant sin.

Just mark out Lk13:3, 1Jn1:8-9, and all the "will-not-inherit" verses (1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21).

My salvation is secure and it will never be anything BUT secure, because God will forever be with me.

It's not me you're arguing with, but Scripture.

( Even if it is to watch me happily sin while he sharpens the barbs on his scourge for that discipline he is about to do.)

This is a total misunderstanding about the essence of salvation; "Christ in you". What other verses can I show you that would convince you? None --- you're not open.

2* We can deny Christ in sin, but he an not deny us salvation.

Okay, then scratch out Matt10:33.

2TIM 2:13 if we are not steadfast, he remaineth steadfast; to deny himself he is not able.

But HE denies US --- where? Not before God (Matt10:33)? Or have you already scratched that verse out in your copy?

Christ made a PROMISE, and he keeps his word.

I'd re-post Romasn11:18-23, but I'm sure you've scratched that passage out already.

John 3 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Whoever IS BELIEVING will not perish. Present active participle; see for yourself (click on "tense").

Christ stated Believe on the Son and we will not perish and have eternal life.
Christ stated it, he does not lie.

Romans11:18-23 --- if we CEASE believing, we will be CUT OFF.

There was no statement in John 3 about how you have to not sin and follow some "world council of churches " Checklist. Instead it is how one must be Born of the Spirit ( one time event ) and that Spiritual birth occurs thru a one time Choice to believe on Christ.. Even if it is just his NAME {vs18}!!.

What happens to the guy in James5:20 who is led back to the faith? Or the ones in Rom11:23? They are born-again, AGAIN.

*3 We are Sealed with a down payment, that payment is the Spirit of God it self... That means the contract is written and our eternal status is secure.

Nope --- the SEAL, is affixed to our BELIEF --- Eph1:13. If we cease to believe (see Heb3:12-14), we cease to be sealed.

Do I need to quote Heb3:12-14, where one can be deceived by sin into unbelief and falling away from God? Or have you scratched that verse out too?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

We are sealed with the spirit, therefore we are counted as +Righteous with God. This spirit will never leave us. One that is going to damnation will never have the spirit. The very existence of the spirit in our soul is proof of the guarantee of our eternal security. Now we can grieve or quench the spirit, but we can not unseal what God has sealed. To think we can is arrogance.

What do you think Paul meant in Col2:6-8?

Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

You read that and perceive "We cannot be deceived away from Jesus and our faith" (no wait, we CAN be deceived away from faith but remain SAVED). I don't know how to convince you that we're not saved by "incantation salvation" (believe ONCE, say the "sinner's prayer" ONCE, and be covered no matter what you do from then on...)

*4 The genetics of the Birth
[When we are born again we are born of good stock. as when we are born of our parents their genes determine how we will look, act, our health, etc..
The Birth of the spirit it would be fair to look at the "gentics" of the parent of that birth. That being God.
1 pet 1
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

The glory or none glory of man withers and fades away,
What we do on earth, good or bad is gone over time..
Yet this spirit of the word will endure FOREVER.
That is the STOCK our spiritual birth comes from.
There is nothing we can do as a flower or as a weed that will affect the genetics of this eternal birth.
Flower or weed, thru the birth of the word, we will endure forever.

Are you ever going to be in my town? I'm really curious to actually look at your copy of Scripture, to see how much you've marked out.

* Sin is not a factor, therefore it can not be used to lose Salvation

Ps.103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Sins was judged at the Cross, they are totally removed from us.

Obviously you've marked out 1Jn3:5-10 --- "He who practices sin is not of God, ....is of the devil."

That one's gone from your copy, isn't it?

If sins are used to judge us, then it is a lie to state they was removed from us.

They are removed from us IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus.

God does not lie, therefore the one who says they are used to cause loss of salvation is the one in untruth.

Col21:2-23 is not a lie; neither is Col2:6-8, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Gal5:4, James5:19-20, 1Tim6:10 & 20-21, 2Pet1:5-11 (especially 10!), 2Pet2:20-22, and literally dozens of others.

satan is consistently standing in heaven accusing the believer based on their sin.
Col3
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

We are to focus on Christ, not our sins, not on making up for sins.

Why bother? There is no danger --- right???

If we are focused on insecure salvation we are focused on our self, not Christ.
satan as nullified us as any form of witness against him, for even we would not trust Christ with our salvation.
How can we trust Christ for any thing else.[

Again I am not looking for you to go line by line and post some random verse that you think refutes each line.

I've given you very precise Scriptures, which you will not answer.

I've said that the only way your doctrine can persist is if you've scratched/marked out great quantities of passages. Either they're scratched out, or you can engage them.

Do you see blacked-out-blocks in your copy? Then please engage the verses.

I want sound doctrine from you, not random out of context verses.

Not possible; you've redefined "sound doctrine" to not be based on Scripture, but rather whatever aligns with your prior doctrine.

I can give you HUNDREDS of verses, but you would have to be open to Scripture first; I perceive you're not.

Not meaning to offend you; if I'm wrong, I look forward to your thoughts on how I'm wrong.

[Colight]

Do you see blacked-out-blocks in your copy? Then please engage the verses.
Not possible; you've redefined "sound doctrine" to not be based on Scripture, but rather whatever aligns with your prior doctrine.

I can give you HUNDREDS of verses, but you would have to be open to Scripture first; I perceive you're not.

Not meaning to offend you; if I'm wrong, I look forward to your thoughts on how I'm wrong.

If you would return to Post 921, I Posted Why I reject any scripture linking you can possibly do .

You started out grossly out of context manipulating the word to fit your thunder ( I guess you have to lie to tell the truth?) . Therefore I can not trust you when it comes to scripture and it would be fruitless to go verse by verse with you, because most of it would be a argument over the fact you are out of context.

Now I have tried to engage you on more of the teaching behind the verses, yet you seem incapable of engaging there, for you need the twists you have done in scripture to fire the thunder that we can not trust our very own God to keep us.

Now In context the scripture states..

^{Romans 11:29} for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

How many times have the Jews over history rejected the truth of God... they even had his own son crucified..
Yet even today they are still Gods Chosen people.
There will NEVER be a time when they are NOT Gods chosen people.
Why? Because it is not up to them to KEEP the status of Chosen people, it is what God has given them.
God made a promise and he intends to keep it, and in future he will.

Now we of the Church have way more given to us than the Nation of Israel ever has.
We have been given more promises than any of ancient Israel.
God has shown he can keep his word to Israel.
Therefore when he states...
Believe ONCE upon my son you will be saved, with the result that you will keep on being saved... FOREVER!!!
We can Believe him on that.

You are acting as the accuser of man, Lucifer if you will... pointing out this sin and that sin.
However we Have Christ himself in heaven in mediation with God the father for every accusation of sin Lucifer brings against man.

Heb 9:24

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;....²⁶ ...... but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Christ has put away sin, with or with out our belief it has been done..So now if Christ work on sin is acceptable to the father, in the very presence of Lucifer himself listing the sins of believers to their face..

Why do you reject it?

When we are saved we become the Sheep of Christ, we followed him into salvation..


John 10

²⁷ My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; ²⁸ and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

Do you know what the word never means?

There really is nothing on this earth more dumb than sheep... they will run straight into danger.
They will stray from the flock regularly..
To Believe insecure salvation is to believe that Christ can not control his flock.
To think they can get away from him if they "stop believing", or stray into some juicy sin that will take them from the flock... is ARROGANCE!
For one to think they can get away from a all knowing all present God is ARROGANCE .
No one will snatch them away, that means the believer himself can not snatch himself.. it is ARROGANCE to think other wise.

A sheep thinks it will go off on its own too, it will think it knows better where the greener grass is that the shepherd.
That is why Christ has that ROD and staff.
To thump them back into the Flock or Hook them thru the briars when they get caught up in the thorns.

Psalm 23:4

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

We know that rod and staff will eventually get us when we stray.. that is comfort.


Yeah, dumb sheep... that is a perfect icon for what Christians are.
Even though we are dumb sheep, we are CHRISTS sheep.. FOREVER... he is stuck with us.

[BrianW]

Mod Note:

Enough with the accusations, mud slinging and insults guy's. Thread closed.