Why many premils might be wrong about the new heavens and a new earth.

[divaD]

If this is true, which I will try and show as the thread progresses, assuming that it does, the conclusion will be that it occurs at the beginning of the millennium, IOW both are one and the same. The premil view is still the correct view, only IMO of course. But unfortunately many premils seem to error when they conclude the new heavens and new earth follow the millennium. So, then of course, I will be coming from a premil perspective.


The first thing that has to be determined is the timing of the day of the Lord and if there are more than one, one at the beginning of the millenium, one at the end.

The day of the Lord according to the NT.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Let's first go to 1 Thessalonians 5:2. It speaks about it as occuring as a thief in the night. This is further verified in Revelation ch 16.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is stated between the 6th and 7th vial. This tells us that the Lord has not yet physically returned at this point. So far then, we can conclude the day of the Lord occurs when Christ returns.

So now let's look at 2 Peter 3...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Notice the part...wherein dwelleth righteousness. This is being associated with the new heavens and a new earth. So then, when Christ physically returns, will there or will there not dwell righteousness in the earth? If the answer is the former, then one must conclude that the new new heavens and a new earth occur when the millenium begins, Keep in mind everyone, I'm coming from a premil perspective. I fully realize amils, etc are going to agree but disagree. By that I mean, they too believe the new heavens and a new earth begin upon Christ's return. The only difference, the millenium would now be past, not just beginning.

If the premil agrees that righteousness will dwell in the earth upon Christ's return, they then have to agree that the new heavens and a new earth would be the millennium, since 2 Peter 3:13 clearly links the new heavens and a new earth with the dwelling of righteousness in the earth. You can't have one without the other..that's the point. Nowhere in 2 Peter 3 does it imply that when Christ returns there will dwell righteousness, except it won't be the new heavens and new earth just yet. Why wouldn't it be? Surely righteousness doesn't dwell in this earth presently, does it? Surely righteousness will dwell in the earth once Christ returns, right? It's a no brainer then, or at least it seems that way to me. The new heavens and a new earth must occur when Christ returns, and not some 1000 years and a little season later.


I've got a lot more to add, depending on whether this thread elicits discussion. But I'll stop here for now. But I will say this. Revelation ch 20 is very brief about this 1000 years. It is then only logical that ch 21 and 22 are homing in on some of the details surrounding this 1000 years. Not to mention, plenty of places in the OT that can't be speaking of anything but this same period of time. For example, some of Isaiah 65 parallels Revelation 21 and 22. But we'll get to that later, depending on how this thread goes.

So basically I tend to believe that when Christ returns, this begins the new heavens and a new earth. After a period of time satan will be loosed. Then eventually the great white throne judgment. So why might the great white throne judgment occur after the new heavens and a new earth? Perhaps to show that some are not worthy of it, or that they don't want any part of it after experiencing it for the past 1000 years. Perhaps similar to what satan did. he experienced God first hand. Dwelled right that among Him. Yet he still rebelled. It looks like man will do the same thing if the premil view is correct. Keep in mind, man indeed rebelled in the beginning, so to speak. But satan was clearly the one to blame for that. And ironically, satan will be the cause yet again, since it is he that will deceive them to go up against the new Jerusalem. But there is another perspective to ponder. In order for satan to so easily deceive them, rebellion must have been in their hearts all along. That part they can't blame on satan, since he was locked away at the time, IOW during the 1000 years. Keep in mind, a lot of what I said here at the end, it's based upon my opinion and probably isn't something I could easily prove with Scriptures. Just think of it as something that is deduced.

[quiet dove]

Interesting, ponder upon, post. I copied it and want to respond but with some thought, so for me, could take awhile, you know, having to think and all....

[JLM-223]

So basically I tend to believe that when Christ returns, this begins the new heavens and a new earth. After a period of time satan will be loosed. Then eventually the great white throne judgment. So why might the great white throne judgment occur after the new heavens and a new earth? Perhaps to show that some are not worthy of it, or that they don't want any part of it after experiencing it for the past 1000 years. Perhaps similar to what satan did. he experienced God first hand. Dwelled right that among Him. Yet he still rebelled. It looks like man will do the same thing if the premil view is correct. Keep in mind, man indeed rebelled in the beginning, so to speak. But satan was clearly the one to blame for that. And ironically, satan will be the cause yet again, since it is he that will deceive them to go up against the new Jerusalem. But there is another perspective to ponder. In order for satan to so easily deceive them, rebellion must have been in their hearts all along. That part they can't blame on satan, since he was locked away at the time, IOW during the 1000 years. Keep in mind, a lot of what I said here at the end, it's based upon my opinion and probably isn't something I could easily prove with Scriptures. Just think of it as something that is deduced.

I agree with what you are saying here. You mentioned Is. 65 (which I’m sure you’ll get to in a later post), but this is the main reason I believe that the NH/NE will begin when the Millennium begins, and not when it ends.

We read in the latter half of this chapter:

17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “ It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

So we see that the NH/NE are already in place at this time, even though many people will still eventually grow old and die. It is only after the Millennium has ended that the New Jerusalem will descend and death will no longer exist.

[divaD]

I agree with what you are saying here. You mentioned Is. 65 (which I’m sure you’ll get to in a later post), but this is the main reason I believe that the NH/NE will begin when the Millennium begins, and not when it ends.

We read in the latter half of this chapter:

So we see that the NH/NE are already in place at this time, even though many people will still eventually grow old and die. It is only after the Millennium has ended that the New Jerusalem will descend and death will no longer exist.

Since you tend to agree with me, I'm puzzled as to how there can be a new heavens and a new earth without there also being the new Jerusalem descending from heaven.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I tend to think these are the same event.

[JLM-223]

Since you tend to agree with me, I'm puzzled as to how there can be a new heavens and a new earth without there also being the new Jerusalem descending from heaven.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I tend to think these are the same event.

At first, I found these verses puzzling, as well. At first, it would seem to make sense to group the NH/NE along with the NJ, as if they were a package deal. But then I noticed Is. 65 describing the NH/NE so that it sounded more like the Millennial Kingdom instead of eternity. That’s when I concluded they were likely separated in time by 1000 years. JMO, though.

[Cyberseeker]

...The premil view is still the correct view, only IMO of course. But unfortunately many premils seem to error when they conclude the new heavens and new earth follow the millennium. So, then of course, I will be coming from a premil perspective.

Hmmm So a 50% amill - premiller eh? You're a bit of a worry Diva.

[quiet dove]

Hmmm So a 50% amill - premiller eh? You're a bit of a worry Diva.

I think he's cheating.

[divaD]

Hmmm So a 50% amill - premiller eh? You're a bit of a worry Diva.

I've pointed this out in the past. I'm simply not the typical premil, yet I believe premil is the correct view, even tho this view is becoming less and less popular as time goes on. So how could I be 50% premil, 50% amil? What do these have in common?
They both have 'mil' in them. But we only need one mil. So if I were to take the 'a' from amil and place it like this by itself..a. Then, since both already have mil in them, and the fact I'm pre, I could then structure it to say... a premil. Yep, that's me, a premil...50% each. lol. BTW, I bet you can't make that work the other way around. pre amil...nope, doesn't quite sound right.

[Cyberseeker]

... how could I be 50% premil, 50% amil? What do these have in common?
They both have 'mil' in them. But we only need one mil. So if I were to take the 'a' from amil and place it like this by itself..a. Then, since both already have mil in them, and the fact I'm pre, I could then structure it to say... a premil. Yep, that's me, a premil...50% each. lol. BTW, I bet you can't make that work the other way around. pre amil...nope, doesn't quite sound right.

Sometimes I need 5 mil of a good strong medicine to settle me down after reading Endtime Forum.

Bless ya bro.

[Diggindeeper]

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

First of all, the new Jerusalem does not encompass the entire earth. Pretty much like the garden of Eden didn't. What's the point of having gates and an entrance into something, if you're not trying to keep some out? Or how about..if there's an inside..there must also be an outside. what's the point of saying.."And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie"...if all the wicked are already in the LOF at this point?

The point I think folks are missing, it is inside the city that there is no longer death, etc. But what about outside of the city? I've brought this point up before. But when Adam and Eve were in the garden, they could basically live forever. But once they were put on the outside of the garden, they could no longer live forever. Keeping in mind..if there's an inside, there must be an outside. So what about all those on the outside? How do they live forever, especially since the tree of life is in the midst, inside of the city, and not outside of it?

DivaD, do you honestly believe that all the saints, all the martyrs, all the Christians of all ages COULD fit into one puny city?? If so, the gates would HAVE to be closed tight, because no one else can enter in. There would be absolutely no more room. And that city, it seems to me, would have to be completely self-sufficient because ALL those people would be shut in by closed gates! The city would have to contain all the food and things needed for survival and the factories to keep them self-sufficient! Things to make light bulbs, enough trees to make toilet paper, etc.

You do see this as a literal city? Right?

[divaD]

You do see this as a literal city? Right?

Why not? What about the garden of Eden? Do you see that as a real place that had the tree of life in the midst? Or do you think the garden of Eden was a metaphor of some kind? If you'll notice, the tree of life is also in the midst of the paradise of God in Revelation ch 22. Ironically, the garden of Eden was also described as a paradise, which likeI pointed out, the tree of life was in the midst of it. Now as far as every single saint fitting into one city..who knows..perhaps things might be a little different then. with it being the beginning of eternity and all. Perhaps it will be a dimension that we can't comprehend in this age, but a dimension where 1,000,000 folks could fit on the end of a matchstick if it were necessary. Who's to say how many different dimensions we might have access to. And my guess would be that those dimensions wouldn't be restrictive like the dimension we're currently living in. Just don't take none of this stuff as being fact on my part tho. I absolutely have no clue. Just thinking outside of the box again.

[John146]

Why not? What about the garden of Eden? Do you see that as a real place that had the tree of life in the midst? Or do you think the garden of Eden was a metaphor of some kind? If you'll notice, the tree of life is also in the midst of the paradise of God in Revelation ch 22. Ironically, the garden of Eden was also described as a paradise, which likeI pointed out, the tree of life was in the midst of it. Now as far as every single saint fitting into one city..who knows..perhaps things might be a little different then. with it being the beginning of eternity and all. Perhaps it will be a dimension that we can't comprehend in this age, but a dimension where 1,000,000 folks could fit on the end of a matchstick if it were necessary. Who's to say how many different dimensions we might have access to. And my guess would be that those dimensions wouldn't be restrictive like the dimension we're currently living in. Just don't take none of this stuff as being fact on my part tho. I absolutely have no clue. Just thinking outside of the box again.

Please explain how a literal, physical city could be called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9).

[divaD]

Please explain how a literal, physical city could be called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9).

I'll tell you what, I'll have to do some digging in the Scriptures, but I'm certain there's a few places where this same sense is used, but it's talking about Jerusalem, which is a literal city. If I can find those passages, you then tell me how such and such can be the literal city Jerusalem, and I'll try and tell you how such and such can also be a literal city, even if it's called the bride. The point being, both answers are probably going to be the same. But I have to do some digging first.
It might take me a bit, so you'll have to be patient.

[John146]

I'll tell you what, I'll have to do some digging in the Scriptures, but I'm certain there's a few places where this same sense is used, but it's talking about Jerusalem, which is a literal city. If I can find those passages, you then tell me how such and such can be the literal city Jerusalem, and I'll try and tell you how such and such can also be a literal city, even if it's called the bride. The point being, both answers are probably going to be the same. But I have to do some digging first.
It might take me a bit, so you'll have to be patient.

I highly doubt there's anywhere where the city itself (not the people, but the city itself) is referred to as the bride. But I won't say any more until you get back to me on what you found.

[Diggindeeper]

I gotta agree with Scott Johnson who said this:

2) The text in the 21st chapter offers a description of what the New Jerusalem actually is;

Rev 21:9-10 And one of the seven angels came to me, he having the seven bowls being filled with the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. (10) And he carried me in spirit onto a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, holy Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God,

The New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. Those who overcome.


It cannot possibly be one literal city floating down from the sky.