Why many premils might be wrong about the new heavens and a new earth.

[mattlad22]

You must have missed the theme of this thread. What you're asking doesn't present a problem for me, since I don't see the day of the Lord occurring 1000 years and a little season later post Christ's return. I see the day of the Lord happening upon Christ's return..meaning the one and only one second coming.

Yes but 2 Peter 3:10 isnt about Christ.

The Son of Man day will come as a thief signifying wicked presence at His coming, which He slays with the sword of His mouth.
God the Father will come as a theif in the night signifying wicked presence at His coming, which the earth and the heavens are burnt up and the works that are within, having already been made immortal through Christ's return the saints will then recieve the new heaven and earth, be presented New Jerusalem as a bride adorned for her husband and God the Father will dwell also among them and Christ, where Christ will subject Himself back to the Father, that God may be all in all and te former things will have passed away.

Coming as a thief in the night isnt for His, its for the wicked, because they are decieved, not knowing God the Father through the Son.

[mattlad22]

He comes 'as a thief' to everyone. Believers don't get 'caught' because they live in the light, not in darkness.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words, but of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(1Th 4:16-5:4)

Raybob you just proved my point further while trying not to.

[Raybob]

Raybob you just proved my point further while trying not to.

That day comes as a thief but Christians aren't overtaken because they walk in the light. That was your point? You should have stated it that way.

[mattlad22]

That day comes as a thief but Christians aren't overtaken because they walk in the light. That was your point? You should have stated it that way.

The point is it doesnt overcome them as a theif.

Only the wicked can be overcome as a theif.

I did.

I said the Coming of the Son of man will come as a theif, why? because wicked will be present.
The day of God will come as a theif when the heaven and earth pass away from the wrath of His fire.

Both days come as a theif, why? because of the presence of deception, wickedness.

[DurbanDude]

Only believers survived the flood yet you believe that unbelievers will survive Christ's return. Why would both Jesus and Peter compare the destruction that will occur at Christ's return directly to the destruction that occurred with the flood without mentioning that there would be one major difference (no unbelievers survived the flood, but some would survive Christ's return)? Jesus described the destruction of the flood and specifically pointed out that no unbelievers survived the flood and then He said "so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be". Well, not exactly according to you. According to your understanding it seems He should have said "so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be except that some unbelievers will survive My coming, unlike the flood".

I prefer not to speculate, but keep to what the bible actually says. The flood was compared to the second coming in 2 ways:

1) Both are unexpected:
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2) Both involve a bad destiny for those left behind:
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


There were those left outside the ark, and they perished, there will be those who are left behind at the second coming who won't receive the resurrection. this is what the bible is comparing. To assume universal death is just that, an assumption.

[Raybob]

The point is it doesnt overcome them as a theif.

Only the wicked can be overcome as a theif.

I did.

I said the Coming of the Son of man will come as a theif, why? because wicked will be present.
The day of God will come as a theif when the heaven and earth pass away from the wrath of His fire.

Both days come as a theif, why? because of the presence of deception, wickedness.

You seem to be implying that the chapter number "5" in 1 Thes. separates the thought of the day of the rapture. You need to look at that without the chapter number added. Chapter 5 starts with the word "But". That word came from the Greek word "G1161
de". Every place in the bible that word is used, it is expounding on the statement that was just stated before that word. It's the same event, the same day, the rapture and the coming as a thief.

[mattlad22]

You seem to be implying that the chapter number "5" in 1 Thes. separates the thought of the day of the rapture. You need to look at that without the chapter number added. Chapter 5 starts with the word "But". That word came from the Greek word "G1161
de". Every place in the bible that word is used, it is expounding on the statement that was just stated before that word. It's the same event, the same day, the rapture and the coming as a thief.

Where are you getting "5" in 1 thess from?

I didnt even say anything about Thess

Ah nice, But means exactly what it means take the but out and it still has the exact same meaning.

" (But) You, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a theif."

If Paul wouldnt have said brethren, which is meaning to the body, the church, the saints then you might have a case but Paul specifically says His are not in darkness to be taken in theft.

Quite simple, we are not taken in theft, the wicked are.

Which signifys that wicked have to be present in order for the event to come as a theif, in both cases.

(P.S Raybob i do not do word studies regarding the bible, i dont condone it but i also do not regard it, knowledge and understanding is given from God not by mans ability to study words.)

[Raybob]

Where are you getting "5" in 1 thess from?

I didnt even say anything about Thess

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words, but of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(1Th 4:16-5:4)

I erased the numbers but it's in there.

[Raybob]

Yes but 2 Peter 3:10 isnt about Christ.

The Son of Man day will come as a thief signifying wicked presence at His coming, which He slays with the sword of His mouth...

Just who is "Lord" if it isn't Jesus?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

[divaD]

You seem to be implying that the chapter number "5" in 1 Thes. separates the thought of the day of the rapture. You need to look at that without the chapter number added. Chapter 5 starts with the word "But". That word came from the Greek word "G1161
de". Every place in the bible that word is used, it is expounding on the statement that was just stated before that word. It's the same event, the same day, the rapture and the coming as a thief.

But for some reason, some folks simply disregard that and think because it's now ch 5, the speaker is now changing the subject. Notice how I started my reply to you...with a 'but'. Was I changing the subject, or was I further expounding on what you just said in post #81? I know you and I know the answer, but what about some of these others? If at least one person can show at least one Scripture where a sentence begins with a 'but', but has absolutely nothing to do with any context that preceded that sentence, then I might think the pretribbers could have a point in this regard.

[mattlad22]

Just who is "Lord" if it isn't Jesus?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

The Father Raybob, they are One.

"looking for and hastening the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervrent heat?"

"And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them"

"Now i saw a new heavn and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, preparedas a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God himself will be with them and be thier God. And God will wipe away every tear from thier eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

"Then comes the end, when He (Christ) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He (Father) puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He (Christ) must reign till He (Father) has put all enemies under His (Christ) feet. The last enemy destroyed is death."

Which takes place in the judgement of Rev 20:11-15 when the dead are judged which just followed the day of the Lord where earth and heaven were burned up with fire and the works whithin which coincides with 2 Peter 3 10-13 and Rev 20:7-10

Lets us continue with 1 Corinthians 15 though

"For "He (Father) has put all things under His (Christ) feet." But when He (Father) says "all things are put under Him (Christ)" it is evident that He (Father) who put all things under Him (Christ) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (Father) who put all things under Him (Christ), that God may be all in all"

Which the last enemy being destroyed in Rev 20:11-15, being death takes place we are then shown when the Son subjects Himself to the Father, earth and heaven have passed away, new earth and heaven are created, New Jerusalem is presented as a wife adorned for her husband (Christ and the saints) and God the Father dwells among men with all former things having passed away, which is Rev 21

[mattlad22]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words, but of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(1Th 4:16-5:4)

I erased the numbers but it's in there.

I dont know why you did, do you think i am saying that those scriptures regard the Coming of the Son of man as a thief for the wicked just because there is a chapter seperation?
I have not.

Im also saying there is no "rapture", the collection of the saints occurs at once, at His return, the coming of the Son of Man, not in seperate timeframes.

I am saying 2 Peter 3:10-13 isnt this same event.

[divaD]

Maybe 2 Peter 3 is symbolic of the literal 1000 year reign of Rev 20 (the other way around to your view). This is hinted at in 2 Peter 3:
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The fire represents the burning hearts of those who are being judged:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day (this means 1000 years as per verse 8) of judgment and perdition of ungodly

The elements melting could be symbolic of the ungodly works of man being burnt, in other words the end and the renewing of the systems of this world for 1000 years:
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I do not seriously believe the above because I tend towards literalism, but do you see how easy it is to justify the parts of the bible that would seem to contradict my position by regarding those parts as symbols? Its very easy to establish your position that way and difficult to argue against, but not necessarily correct. But even in my example above I've given more detail of what the symbolism represents than you have regarding Rev 19. What are the birds? Why do the nations get ruled by an iron rod AFTER they are destroyed, what does that symbolise? What do the specific kings and captains and horses and mighty men represent? And the beast and the false prophet? And Jesus sword must be a symbol if they are actually destroyed by fire and not by His sword.

DD, let me show you what you just did here. As I was reading your post, and before I got to the punchline, I was thinking..hey this sounds kind of reasonable..maybe it could mean this. Then of course, when I got to the punchline I then knew you were being non serious.


For the sake of argument, let's pretend you were being serious, and you tended to think this is what it all represented. Who knows, but in no time, you might have other folks agreeing with you, and the ironic thing, you didn't conclude none of this from the Scriptures themselves, you invented it all in your mind. I firmly believe the Bible speaks in symbols much of the time. But when it does, somewhere in Scripture those symbols are going to be defined. It's when folks define alleged symbols without Scriptural proof, that's when I have a hard time agreeing with their conclusions, since they could have done the very same thing you did in this post..and that is..define alleged symbols from a mind full of imagination, instead of from the Scriptures themseves which somewhere should define the symbols if that's what they really are.

[Raybob]

The Father Raybob, they are One.

"looking for and hastening the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervrent heat?"

I don't know where you get such a twisted idea. Certainly NOT from the bible. The bible tells us Jesus IS Lord and was Lord since before the world was formed. Nowhere in scripture will you ever see that the father is Lord.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

[mattlad22]

I don't know where you get such a twisted idea. Certainly NOT from the bible. The bible tells us Jesus IS Lord and was Lord since before the world was formed. Nowhere in scripture will you ever see that the father is Lord.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

Raybob.

‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 clarifies this even further regarding your issue with this as what i qouted Jesus used because in the hearts of the men they were thinking the Christ was the son of David, but He rebukes them by saying what David spoke through the Spirit.
In Corinthians verses the Holy Spirit is showing us that the Lord God Almighty will not be excepted until He has put all enemies under the Sons feet, who sits at the right hand, the last enemy destroyed is death and what happens when the Lord puts all enemies beneath the Lords feet? "then the Son will subject Himself to the Father, that God may be all in all."

The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet"