See. It doesn't say "father".Originally Posted by mattlad22
What, me worry?
See. It doesn't say "father".
guest
Thats what you asked first.
This is what you then say next:
I don't know where you get such a twisted idea. Certainly NOT from the bible. The bible tells us Jesus IS Lord and was Lord since before the world was formed. Nowhere in scripture will you ever see that the father is Lord.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)
I just answered your question with this:
Raybob.
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 clarifies this even further regarding your issue with this as what i qouted Jesus used because in the hearts of the men they were thinking the Christ was the son of David, but He rebukes them by saying what David spoke through the Spirit.
In Corinthians verses the Holy Spirit is showing us that the Lord God Almighty will not be excepted until He has put all enemies under the Sons feet, who sits at the right hand, the last enemy destroyed is death and what happens when the Lord puts all enemies beneath the Lords feet? "then the Son will subject Himself to the Father, that God may be all in all."
The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet"
And you reply with this? read this Raybob, read everything in this post, all of it.:
See. It doesn't say "father".
Who is the Lord who says to Davids Lord "Sit at My right hand" It is the Father who is called Lord.
What, me worry?
If you put those two scriptures together, you can get that idea but the bible doesn't say it. The point is the "Day of the Lord" is no different than the "Day of Christ" Christ IS LORD. Are you implying that the Father has different ideas than the Son, of what to do with the unfaithful at the time of the return of the Lord?
guest
The Holy Spirit just said it through the bible, which is of the Holy Spirit.
The point is 2 Peter 3 isnt the return of Christ because scripture confirms scripture and on that day of the Lord, the day of God as its also referred in those verses, heaven and earth pass away and the works in it are burnt up, Christ coming doesnt dissovle the heavens and burn up the earth, God, the Lords does.
"Now when the thousand years have expired (the same thousand years they lived and reigned with Christ in, but the rest of the dead at Christ's coming did not live again untill it was finished Rev 20:4) Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:4-15 to 21
No im not, im implying the Son does the will of the Father and the Father has given the prophecy of that account of His will, what will happen to the unfaithful in 2 Peter 3:10-13 they will be devoured with fire from God out of heaven and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are and the judgement of the dead will take place and death being the last enemy will be put under His feet, destroyed in the lake of fire and a new heaven and a new earth will be created because the old heaven and the old earth has passed away. Also there is no more sea and the Son will now subject Himself to the Father that God may be all in all and God the Lord our Father will dwell among us forever and ever in New Jerusalem, the new heaven and the new earth, where the former things have passed away and He has ended all rule, power and authority.
Game set match -Jesus
Jesus said
Matt 24
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
What promise is Peter refering to?But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
What, me worry?
So, according to you, we have the "Day of God" and the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" but they are all different days. Oy Vey. I'm done here. There is one God, one Lord. His name is Jesus.
guest
Parable of the fig tree.
"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is nar. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
So what is it your saying jeffweeder?
guest
No we have the return of Christ, the gathering of the saints on that day the destruction of the wicked on earth.
Then we have Rev 7-10 following the thousand years to occur after the day of the Son of Man, when Gods wrath does exactly what 2 Peter 3 says it will.
Ok, Raybob, your call, i actually didnt know you didnt seperate the Son and the Father. If the Son is God who sits on the throne then who is the Son who God sits at His right hand?
Why does He put His enemies under His feet?
Game set match -Jesus
Im saying Peter got all his ideas about the heaven and the earth passing, and him coming like a thief from Jesus. Peter also mentions how Paul speaks of this day in all his letters..., and Pauls teaching is according to the Lords own word..;
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
guest
Peter is speaking by the Holy Spirit which is the word of the Lord.
That still doesnt claryfy what your trying to say regarding what you qouted from me.
Game set match -Jesus
Your saying 2pet 3 isnt about the 2nd coming, and im trying to show that it is.
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?
guest
No im am saying 2 Peter 3:10-13 is not. i havent even spoken about anything prior to that, but i will now.
"For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by he same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.
So we see here that "heaven and earth are reserved for fire UNTIL the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men" (which coincides with the events of the end of Rev 20:7-10 and then depicts the very judgement occuring from that as spoken of here in 2 Peter 3:5-7 in Rev 20:11-15)
Then after being told not to faulter on waiting we are shown 2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervrent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervrent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."
So now compare that to what takes place at Christ's coming in Revelation:
Rev 19:21
"And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with thier flesh"
That alone should convince you both accounts are not the same, as it would actually take time and the ability for birds to be alive after all these men were killed if what occurs in 2 Peter 3:10-13 occured at Chist coming, but nevertheless, lets continue.
Rev 20:1-3
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a geat chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should decieve the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."
So this is the first depiction of the thousand years given and it is what John sees after watching Christ return and capture the beast and false prophet and cast them into the lake of fire and kill the rest with the word of His mouth.
Yet if all things are destroyed at Christ's coming, why is satan now being inprisoned and why are we told he will be released for a short while at the end of it? Christ just came back and burnt up the world and nevertheless we according to His promise look for new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells?
Because He didnt destroy earth and heaven at His coming because 2 Peter 3:10-13 isnt about His return, but still let us continue, we must show when this event takes place still.
Rev 20:4-6
"And i saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was commited to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for thier witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not recieved his mark on thier foreheads or on thier hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest's of God and of Christ, and shall live and reign with Him a 1000 years."
Theres the thousand years again, satan inprisoned a 1000 years at the coming of Christ, the saints live a thousand years at the coming of Christ, but the rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years are finished.
Key part right at the end there as ill post 2 Peter 3:7 again
"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved for fire until the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men"
So if 2 Peter 3 10:13 was Christ coming then why are the rest of the dead awaiting a thousand years? 2 Peter 3:7 just told us heaven and earth are reserved for fire UNTIL the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men, some of the rest of the dead are those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him and his image and this is what happens to all who take the mark or worship the beast:
Rev 14:9-10
"Then a third angel followed them, sayig with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and recieves his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he hiself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup ofHis idignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presene of the Lamb."
We know Christ kills them with the sword of His mouth at His return, but if it is His coming 2 Peter 3:10-13 i talking about then they would be judged and sent into perdition at His return because the heaven and earth would be dissolved and 2 Peter 3:7 would occur, but it isnt so, they are shown as "the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished"
So lets continue further, we are now at 2 Peter 3:10-13 in the prophecy of Revelation.
Rev 20:7-10
"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
that is 2 Peter 3:10-13 which leads us to the judgement and perdition of ungodly men as told in 2 Peter 3:7 where we are also told heaven and earth are reserved for fire until thier judgement, so now we are shown the very judgement and perdition of ungodly men in Rev 20:11-15, earth and heaven have been destroyed and i will cover the showing of that after these scriptures and that which follows Rev 20:11-15.
Rev 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whos face the earth and heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to thier works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
So there we have the fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:7 ""But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved for fire until the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men" as it is done and the last enemy has been destroyed, Death as it is cast into the lake of fire, perdition, the second death.
So lets move on to the verses that follow it as it also adresses 2 Peter 3
Rev 21
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for he first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, God Himself will be with them and be thier God. And God will wipe away every tear from thier eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away"
2 Peter 3 completely fullfilled.
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 for further confirmation of all of this.
"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are His at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The Last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
<--Bluebird of Happiness
Well, we do have differing opinions. NONE of us have all the answers.
That's why we discuss all these things.
So this means none of us are experts and have it all figured out. Many have changed their minds as they study more and more and more.
My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16
"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)
What, me worry?
Ain't that the truth!
Road less travelled
Exactly , its easy to make up symbols, so hard to argue against that view, when someone just "imagines" that certain objects are symbols of other things.
I am a strict literalist unless the context is pretty obvious,and then normally as you say, the bible has already set a precedent of those symbols being specifically defined elsewhere.
For example, armies represented by locusts, empires represented by beasts, churches represented by candlesticks, countries represented by horns.
As for Rev 19, I still wonder what the birds are supposed to represent? And I always wonder how amills interpret verse 15 about the nations that are struck and are then ruled over (this greek word means to shepherd and to nourish). Amills tend to believe the nations are nourished with immediate death - this sounds funny, I wonder what this shepherding/nourishing means in their eyes.
Last edited by DurbanDude; Jun 17th 2011 at 12:01 PM.
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