A 7 year pre-trib problem.

[DurbanDude]

How will you be able to distinguish this person from the real Jesus, who does exactly the same thing.

The difference is that when Jesus arrives we will all rise to meet him in the clouds with our resurrection bodies, so it is impossible to misunderstand the second coming. The man of sin, we are well warned about, and scripture is clear the rest of the world will be deceived because it will be convincing, referred to as a "strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians 2.

[Faithful One]

If not the rapture, then is there any clearly recognizable event that will mark the beginning of the GT?

Of course there is Rev.
Jesus himself gave the SIGN of the beginning of the "great tribulation" as he called it.
He was the One who coined the phrase "great Tribulation" and he also gave the sign that led up to it in Matt. 24:

" When you shall therefore see the abomination of desolation ....standing in the Holy place, .....THEN let them that are in Judea flee.....for then shall be "Great Tribulation" such as was not since the beginning of the world..." (Matt 24: 15-21)

According to Jesus it is the Anti-Christ that causes the great tribulation. He plunders both Jews and Believers worldwide....According to Scripture that IS the great tribulation.

Faithful

[Cyberseeker]

Thanks for explaining, I agree with you about 2 abominations, but not 3, I believe Daniel 8 and Daniel 11:31 are referring to Antiochus, and Daniel 9:27b and Daniel 12 are referring to the "man of sin".

Daniel contains a series of visions which step through several antichrist/abominations (more than two) which are precursors to the final abomination. The best known AoD in the book of Daniel is that of Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the Jewish temple in 167 BC. This is the subject of chapter eight as you point out.

But the chapter nine case speaks of an 'over-spreading' abomination. The abomination which occurred in the middle of the ‘week’ was the continuation of animal sacrifice after God had declared it complete! This abomination 'over-spread' from its initial blasphemy (performed in the temple at the same time as the cross) through until AD70 when God put a stop to it.

And yes, a final abomination will occur again. The earlier cases are precursors of the abomination to come. The one to come is what Jesus alludes to in Matt 24:15.

[ross3421]

The tribulation or better the AC's reign of power is 3.5 years.

The "great" tribulation is God's plagues which happens after the tribulation above.

There is no 7 year period which is primarily assumed from Dan 9 that a week is 7 years.......last I looked a week is 7 days. (the feast of tabernacles).

[DurbanDude]

Daniel contains a series of visions which step through several antichrist/abominations (more than two) which are precursors to the final abomination. The best known AoD in the book of Daniel is that of Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the Jewish temple in 167 BC. This is the subject of chapter eight as you point out.

But the chapter nine case speaks of an 'over-spreading' abomination. The abomination which occurred in the middle of the ‘week’ was the continuation of animal sacrifice after God had declared it complete! This abomination 'over-spread' from its initial blasphemy (performed in the temple at the same time as the cross) through until AD70 when God put a stop to it.

And yes, a final abomination will occur again. The earlier cases are precursors of the abomination to come. The one to come is what Jesus alludes to in Matt 24:15.

We have discussed this before, the main problem I have with the historical view of Daniel 9:27b is that there should have been a great ending to the 490 year Jewish period, 3.5 years after the crucifixion.This would mean that the fulfilment of all these events was completed by the Jewish autumn of 33AD:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All I see happening is that the Jewish leaders were told around about 34 AD that the Gentiles are included in the gospel. This had been the case since the crucifixion, they were just clearly informed about it around about 34 AD , that Gentiles could be included in this "Jewish" religion of christianity, grafted into the Jewish vine. But as per the Ethiopian, they could receive salvation right from the crucifixion, its just the leaders had not yet caught on about the Gentiles, and God therefore informed them.

So I do not see this "ending" for the great Jewish 490 year period at 33AD, merely a confirmation that Gentiles should be included in Christianity. Adding in the fact that this 3.5 year period is so similar to the end-times 3.5 year period starting with an abomination and ending with the end of the abominator and a literal fulfilling of all those events of verse 24 at the end of the 3.5 year period (literally no sin in Jerusalem). And also taking into account the fact that the crucifixion and not the Cornelius event brought in salvation to the Gentiles, and therefore the Jewish focussed period ended in the 486.5 year of the 490 year period, leaving 3.5 years to come of Jewish focus.

Also (I never stop do I..haha) the fact that Daniel 12:11 is very difficult to understand from a 100% historical perspective of daniel 9, and yet fits easily into my view of the reference to a "Gentile age" seperating the ending of sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination, and also fits into the dispensational view of re-introduced sacrifices (a view I do not hold).
¹¹And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[Cyberseeker]

I cannot find enough info to pin Cornelius' conversion to 1260 days after the cross unfortunately. I can get to within 6 or 7 months tho. Plus I can remind you of the high importance the early church put on this event. Apart from that, we will just have to beg to differ.

[Amos_with_goats]

If not the rapture, then is there any clearly recognizable event that will mark the beginning of the GT?

You know,

If the pre-trib position were correct, and the 'rapture' were such an event, then EVERYONE with a bible would know the date of His return huh?

Not all who hold pre-trib believe that the 'know the day' problem applied to post trib, however if anyone were to argue pre-trib using this then the OP would hold against their argument the same way...

Yet another problem for pre-trib....

[Saved7]

EvThe 7 year pre-trib problem is the idea that; "The tribulation is 7 years" and therefore, the time of the Lord's return would be known. Neither of these is 'charges' are correct...

(having trouble with this computer, will restart and edit).

Here is an example, (from this site) of some of the conclusions... (these are not mine, only posted to show some of the 'proof' for this supposed problem with the non-pre-trib view.

Pre-trib proponents often say the date of Christ's return would be clearly known since all one would have to do is count '7 years' from the date of the signing of the peace treaty....

It is a rather weak (week?) argument.... it assumes;

- an easily known time period of 7 years.... (see quote above)
- That the start will be absolutely known to all.... (not all world events are so public, or obvious)
- That the days would not be 'shortened for the sake of the elect' as the Lord says in Matt 24.

To say that this might somehow support pre-trib is a stretch at best... .

Yeah, I don't get with the pre-trib view, but I do subscribe to the pre-wrath view...at least in part. Pretty much have my own views here....The way I see things is there is an unknown amount of time of great persecution that leads up to the official institution of the false religion at the end...and at that time is when the Great Tribulation will begin for the saints, as stated in Rev 7 about the multitude who came out of the GT. That period of time could be 3 1/2 years and the "judgement" period on the world where they endure the "wrath of the Lamb" spoken of in the 6th seal could last 3 1/2 years. OOOR, it could be that the wrath of the Lamb lasts only about 2 years and the GT for the saints lasts about 1 1/2 years..But we know this much, that there is a 3 1/2 year period marked out by the preaching of the 2 witnesses and by the period marked out in Chapter 13 of Rev about the beast continuing for 3 1/2 years.

So how long the whole thing goes on for, I am not firm on, but there is a definite 3 1/2 year period marked out in Revelation for "the final showing". Just my way of expressing the last years leading up to the return of Christ.

[vinsight4u8]

Hi Amos,

What scriptural support is there for a signing of a peace treaty marking the beginning of the Great Trib? Is this the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks, or is there something else?

Daniel 9 links to Daniel 8 - as to consider the vision.
In Daniel 8 was a part as to by peace /shall destroy many.
Daniel 9 seems to refer to this covenant.
Daniel 11 -after verse 14 is also all for the latter days and has both a covenant and a league.

[vinsight4u8]

The great tribulation has to be over in the 6th seal as God's face shows up to bring mercy to Israel.

The time of fleeing Satan's face is over.

[thedee]

You know,

If the pre-trib position were correct, and the 'rapture' were such an event, then EVERYONE with a bible would know the date of His return huh?

Not all who hold pre-trib believe that the 'know the day' problem applied to post trib, however if anyone were to argue pre-trib using this then the OP would hold against their argument the same way...

Yet another problem for pre-trib....

2Thes2 says they will believe a "lie" because they didn't not accept the truth. After the Rapture the AntiChrist I believe will come up with some lie on what happened to those taken by the Lord. That does not mean all will accept the lie being we see a great multitude during the tribulation period saved.

[Visions]

The "lie" in this passage of scripture is Satan's presentation of his beast in the little horn as a "god" whose false prophet will be able to display signs and "lying" wonders [Revelation 13:12-13] thereby misleading those who refuse to believe the truth about Jesus Christ .... there is nothing about a "rapture" in this passage of scripture, or in any scripture, telling that the beast will come up with what happened to those taken by the Lord

2Thessalonians
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The preceding verses do present the "rapture" [the gathering] which will take place just before the day of the Lord [the beginning of His hour of trial and judgment of an unbelieving lost world of humanity] [Revelation 3:10]

The Thessalonians were concerned that they had missed the gathering because of the false teaching that the day of the Lord had come

Paul sets them straight and tells them why the day of the Lord had not come and was still a future event .... because the wicked one and his following [falling away] was not present

2Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Here is what the beast will say regarding those immortal humans who dwell in heaven with the Lord during the period of His judgment upon the earth [Revelation 13:6]

Those who have a problem with the Lord's intent to immortalize His church of today before He brings His judgment [Revelation 6:12-17] ..... have a problem ..... and they need to re-evaluate their position on this matter .... not a good idea to be refuting His obvious intent

1Thessalonians
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The following verses give proof of the pre-tribulation "rapture":

[Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 14:17; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]

There will be no believers on the earth just after this event [1Corinthians 15:51-52; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18]

However, there will be some who will become believers during the period of His judgment [Revelation 3:19-22; 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded] .... these must wait for their resurrection until the end of the tribulation, and then they will be added to the pre-tribulation church

These are the mortal survivors of the tribulation of those days [2550 days]

[Isaiah 11; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... believing mortals gathered of Israel

[ 25:31-46] .... believing mortals gathered of the nations .... the sheep

[thedee]

The "lie" in this passage of scripture is Satan's presentation of his beast in the little horn as a "god" whose false prophet will be able to display signs and "lying" wonders [Revelation 13:12-13] thereby misleading those who refuse to believe the truth about Jesus Christ .... there is nothing about a "rapture" in this passage of scripture, or in any scripture, telling that the beast will come up with what happened to those taken by the Lord

Yup and I agree with this (Jon 5:43). My point was someone will probably come up with a reason for the disappearance of many people from the earth due to the Rapture. I highly doubt they are going to say "Christ took the believers". Even tho it doesn't say but I would guess that the AntiChrist will have some sort of reason. The context of 2Thes2:11 is the AntiChrist claiming to be God.

[Visions]

You could certainly be correct about an explanation .... the scriptures really don't tell

What the beast will do is rail at the Lord and those immortal humans who dwell in heaven with Him during the coming judgment [Revelation 13:6] .... so he will admit to the Lord's existence and those who dwell with Him in heaven, but he will claim greater authority for himself and his "god" who is Satan [Revelation 12:12]

I would suggest the when the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon the earth begins immediately after the Lord descends and snatches the living believers away, the balance of humanity will not even be concerned about a few missing christians [however some who were professing only may discover that they missed His call] .... because they will all be thrown into this condition [Luke 21:25-26; 21:35; Revelation 6:12-17]

There is abounding false teaching among the professing church today that believers should expect to enter the coming judgment and those who are not really saved will if they are living at the time ..... so these will think that they are experiencing exactly what they have been led to believe and they will be of extreme vulnerability to the deceptions that will exist along with facing their own death .... this false teaching is an exact and opposite rebuttal of the truth which should be recognized as coming from satanic influences [2Thessalonians 2:7-12]

The Lord's coming judgment of unprecedented upheaval on the earth will produce conditions in which billions will end up missing or dead and it may very well be that the disapperance any living believers will not be noticed as being any different than those missing for other reasons .... this confusion, vexation, and destruction will go on for 2550 days as the Lord pounds the earth with His punishment of an intransigent and unbelieving humanity [Psalms 2] .... He will not be visible to the earth dwellers, but they will know that they are under judgment [Revelation 6:15-17]..... and when it is over, He will appear visibly to the balance of the mortal survivors and separate them [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

There is ample evidence that true belief in the professing church is dwindling today with many who profess only who are following false doctrines of many origins .... this trend of apostasy will only increase to the extent that the numbers of true believers will be few when the Lord intervenes to keep them from His wrath and judgment, and their departure will most likely go unnoticed

[quiet dove]

You could certainly be correct about an explanation .... the scriptures really don't tell

What the beast will do is rail at the Lord and those immortal humans who dwell in heaven with Him during the coming judgment [Revelation 13:6] .... so he will admit to the Lord's existence and those who dwell with Him in heaven, but he will claim greater authority for himself and his "god" who is Satan [Revelation 12:12]

I would suggest the when the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon the earth begins immediately after the Lord descends and snatches the living believers away, the balance of humanity will not even be concerned about a few missing christians [however some who were professing only may discover that they missed His call] .... because they will all be thrown into this condition [Luke 21:25-26; 21:35; Revelation 6:12-17]

There is abounding false teaching among the professing church today that believers should expect to enter the coming judgment and those who are not really saved will if they are living at the time ..... so these will think that they are experiencing exactly what they have been led to believe and they will be of extreme vulnerability to the deceptions that will exist along with facing their own death .... this false teaching is an exact and opposite rebuttal of the truth which should be recognized as coming from satanic influences [2Thessalonians 2:7-12]

The Lord's coming judgment of unprecedented upheaval on the earth will produce conditions in which billions will end up missing or dead and it may very well be that the disapperance any living believers will not be noticed as being any different than those missing for other reasons .... this confusion, vexation, and destruction will go on for 2550 days as the Lord pounds the earth with His punishment of an intransigent and unbelieving humanity [Psalms 2] .... He will not be visible to the earth dwellers, but they will know that they are under judgment [Revelation 6:15-17]..... and when it is over, He will appear visibly to the balance of the mortal survivors and separate them [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

There is ample evidence that true belief in the professing church is dwindling today with many who profess only who are following false doctrines of many origins .... this trend of apostasy will only increase to the extent that the numbers of true believers will be few when the Lord intervenes to keep them from His wrath and judgment, and their departure will most likely go unnoticed

An attempt at words of wisdom in regards to the culture on the board here...

While I am pre trib, so thus disagree with the other camps on the end times scenario, it is also true that there are things pre tribbers say that I would also disagree with. And I am sure that all works in reverse.

The thing is, all believers are indwelt with the Spirit and , being mistaken about interpretation, and flat following Satanic teachings is two different things. With all the different views discussed here in ETC, it is important to approach disagreement carefully and "say unto others as we would prefer them to say unto us", when it comes to putting forth our disagreements...It is also important not to lump all in a pile and remember we are talking to individuals at the other end of our computer screens, not the entire www.