Daniel 9

[vinsight4u8]

The prophecy is about Israel.
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city..." 9:24
But this is not the only part determined in this prophecy. v26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." =7 weeks + the 62 makes 69/
So here ends the 69th week of the determined 70 weeks. Now, instead of telling about the final week, Gabriel begins to tell things as to determined desolations. These desolations are not determined to happen durng the 70 weeks. "...shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....desolations are determined."

Then later comes the final week. This week is what Daniel supplicated about at the start of chapter 9. It is when the he, that has more time left to desolate Jerusalem, finishes it, so as to come to the end of a prophecy that was foretold in Jeremiah.

Daniel 9:3 "...set my face unto the Lord God, to seek...by supplications..."
v23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth...understand..."

v2 "...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
Verse 3 shows that Daniel was confused so he began -- to seek by prayer and supplicatons, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:" some help to understand the words written by Jeremiah the prophet.
Gabriel didn't say the commandment came at the time he prayed -but at the begnning of his suppications. When Daniel began to supplicate the commandment came forth to send Gabriel to him with the answer to the Jeremiah prophecy.

[vinsight4u8]

Everlasting righteousness has not come on Israel's land nor to her people yet. This is what happens at the end of the 70 weeks.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city...to bring in everlasting righteousness."

Daniel 9:24

thy people
thy holy city
Jerusalem can never again be made desolate by the Gentiles. The people of Titus destroyed both the city and the sanctuary after Jesus Christ was here.

70 weeks ----------of determined time
But there are two sections of determined time.
v27 "...he shall make ...desolate...that determined..."

v26 "...desolations are determined." This is for after the 69th week has ended.
The time of Titus ended one determined section of desolations.
The time of the beast will end the determined time of weeks at verse 27.
Israel and her people will get righteousness.

Jer. 51:10 "The LORD hath brought forth our rghteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God."
v8
"Babylon is suddenly fallen..."
v6
"Flee out of the midst of Babylon..."
v4 "...the land of the Chaldeans..."
Israel must go back into captivity in Babylon, and at the end of the 70 weeks get her righteousness.The 7th trumpet will sound, and the saints (church) will put on righteousness.
KJV

[vinsight4u8]

This part was given, even though it came after the first 69 weeks of determined time.

The people under Titus (not being the ruler yet) destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

desolations - determined - but not still on the 69th week

The last section- the final week is linked up with one of Jeremiah's 70-yr prophecies.

This prophecy was read by Daniel (see verse 2/Daniel 9), and Gabriel was sent to help Daniel understand the matter (words) written by Jeremiah.



9:2"...word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet...he...desolations..."

v27"...he shall..desolate...tlll the consummation..."

consummation- end of the time that Daniel had suppllcated about



Jer. 25:11 "...these nations...serve the king of Babylon seventy years."



v12 "And it shall come to pass, when seventy years..."

This prophecy caused Daniel to supplicate as Daniel realized the Babylonian king time was not yet over, even though their kingdom had fallen to the Persians/Medes.

[vinsight4u8]

Daniel's 70th week is yet ahead of us. Babylon /Iraq has yet to fall in the day of the Lord.
See Isaiah 13-14.

[ScottJohnson]

The prophecy is about Israel.
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city..." 9:24
But this is not the only part determined in this prophecy. v26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." =7 weeks + the 62 makes 69/
So here ends the 69th week of the determined 70 weeks. Now, instead of telling about the final week, Gabriel begins to tell things as to determined desolations. These desolations are not determined to happen durng the 70 weeks. "...shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....desolations are determined."

Then later comes the final week. This week is what Daniel supplicated about at the start of chapter 9. It is when the he, that has more time left to desolate Jerusalem, finishes it, so as to come to the end of a prophecy that was foretold in Jeremiah.

Daniel 9:3 "...set my face unto the Lord God, to seek...by supplications..."
v23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth...understand..."

v2 "...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
Verse 3 shows that Daniel was confused so he began -- to seek by prayer and supplicatons, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:" some help to understand the words written by Jeremiah the prophet.
Gabriel didn't say the commandment came at the time he prayed -but at the begnning of his suppications. When Daniel began to supplicate the commandment came forth to send Gabriel to him with the answer to the Jeremiah prophecy.

The prophecy claims that between the command to rebuild the city and Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks or sixty nine weeks total. It goes on to say that after sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off. Your interpretation places Christ's death before the sixty nine weeks are complete which is in stark contrast to the actual prophecy.

Dan 9:25-26
(25) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
(26) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

[ScottJohnson]

Everlasting righteousness has not come on Israel's land nor to her people yet. This is what happens at the end of the 70 weeks.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city...to bring in everlasting righteousness."

Daniel 9:24

thy people
thy holy city
Jerusalem can never again be made desolate by the Gentiles. The people of Titus destroyed both the city and the sanctuary after Jesus Christ was here.

70 weeks ----------of determined time
But there are two sections of determined time.
v27 "...he shall make ...desolate...that determined..."

v26 "...desolations are determined." This is for after the 69th week has ended.
The time of Titus ended one determined section of desolations.
The time of the beast will end the determined time of weeks at verse 27.
Israel and her people will get righteousness.

Jer. 51:10 "The LORD hath brought forth our rghteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God."
v8
"Babylon is suddenly fallen..."
v6
"Flee out of the midst of Babylon..."
v4 "...the land of the Chaldeans..."
Israel must go back into captivity in Babylon, and at the end of the 70 weeks get her righteousness.The 7th trumpet will sound, and the saints (church) will put on righteousness.
KJV

The New Testament testifies to the fulfillment of this prophecy. There is absolutely no reason based on the prophecy for Israel to be carried into exile in our future.

Mat 3:14-15
(14) But John restrained Him, saying, I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?
(15) But answering, Jesus said to him, Allow it now, for it is becoming to us this way to fulfill all righteousness. Then he allows Him.

Rom 5:19-21
(19) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.
(20) But Law came in besides, that the deviation might abound. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded,
(21) that as sin ruled in death, so also grace might rule through righteousness to everlasting life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 1:8-9
(8) but as to the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;
(9) You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows."

[ScottJohnson]

Daniel's 70th week is yet ahead of us. Babylon /Iraq has yet to fall in the day of the Lord.
See Isaiah 13-14.

There's a general consensus among most biblical scholars that the term "sevens" or "weeks" in Daniel's prophecy in chap 9 speaks of a period of seven years. I accept this and you as well seem to accept this. If this is indeed the correct interpretation then seventy sevens or seventy weeks would be 490 years. There is absolutely no biblical demand to stop the prophecy at the end of 483 years and start it back up at a more doctrinally convenient time in the future.

[jeffweeder]

The prophecy claims that between the command to rebuild the city and Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks or sixty nine weeks total. It goes on to say that after sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off. Your interpretation places Christ's death before the sixty nine weeks are complete which is in stark contrast to the actual prophecy.

Dan 9:25-26
(25) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
(26) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

If Christ did his work in the 69th week and then was cut off, then he didnt atone for sin and we dont have a Gospel.
Christs work was done in the 70th week and we do have a Gospel.

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Did Jesus atone for sin at his first coming?
Yes he did, and therefore all those points were fulfilled in the 70th week.

[ScottJohnson]

If Christ did his work in the 69th week and then was cut off, then he didnt atone for sin and we dont have a Gospel.
Christs work was done in the 70th week and we do have a Gospel.



Did Jesus atone for sin at his first coming?
Yes he did, and therefore all those points were fulfilled in the 70th week.

I think I agree with you Jeff. I am of the opinion that the works of Christ did take place following the 69th week during the 70th week.

I'm not really sure why though, if Christ's was sacrificed before the seventieth week began that would negate the atonement of sin and the advancement of the gospel.

[DurbanDude]

There's a general consensus among most biblical scholars that the term "sevens" or "weeks" in Daniel's prophecy in chap 9 speaks of a period of seven years. I accept this and you as well seem to accept this. If this is indeed the correct interpretation then seventy sevens or seventy weeks would be 490 years. There is absolutely no biblical demand to stop the prophecy at the end of 483 years and start it back up at a more doctrinally convenient time in the future.

There is a simple law of logic, that if a prophecy has not been fulfilled, it will still be fulfilled. Now Daniel 9 is concerning a special 490 year period for the Jews, however at the crucifixion any specialness for the Jews completely ceased, because the crucifixion opened the way for all. Thus only 486.5 years of the 490 year period has been fulfilled, 3.5 years are left.

Confirming this, is that nothing signicant occurred in the Jewish Autumn of 33AD to complete the 490 year period. It appears that Cornelius conversion occurred in 34AD, by approximate dating, which did not even end the Jewish period, because it was merely confirmation of what happened at the crucifixion and an including of Gentiles, definitely not an ending for the Jewish period.

Also confirming this, is that Daniel's abomination that Jesus refers to , is preceding the second coming/resurrection event, according to both Jesus and Daniel 12, both explain this short period before the second coming/resurrection thatbegins with an abomination. Thus this end-times 3.5 year period for the Jews as per Daneil 12, also starts with an abomination as per Daniel 9:27b, and is also 3.5 years long as per Daniel 9:27b, and also ends with the death of an abominator as per Daniel 9:27b. I see a perfectly matching sequence of events.

Also confirming what I am saying is that Daniel 12:11 is very difficult to explain from a purely historical view of the 490 year period, because here it mentions both the taking away of sacrifice and the abomination in a chapter concerning a future resurrection context.

¹¹And from the time (AGE) that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The way I have explained it simplifies this mysterious verse:
From the Gentile age starting with the crucifixion, and ending with the abomination, there will be a further Jewish period of 3.5 years long until the resurrection.

Also confirming what I am saying, is that we know from Daniel 7 and Rev 13 that the beast or little horn will rule for 3.5 years of persecution of the saints. However Daniel 12 is clear that during the 3.5 years of persecution the woman with the 12 stars thatgave birth to Jesus is being kept safe, this is a confirmation for a special 3.5 years for Jews.

Also confirming what I am saying , is that Romans 11:25 can be seen as referring to a gentile period of openness to the gospel , followed by a Jewish period of openness to the gospel.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It appears that the current age ends with a Jewish openness to the gospel. Confirming this is the sealing of the 144000 Jews during that last period , mentioned in Revelation, sealing is a phrase used often in the NT to indicate the receiving of the holy Spirit, which is also confirmed in Joel when that attack from the northern army stirs up a spiritual outpouring on Jews.

[jeffweeder]

I think I agree with you Jeff. I am of the opinion that the works of Christ did take place following the 69th week during the 70th week.

I'm not really sure why though, if Christ's was sacrificed before the seventieth week began that would negate the atonement of sin and the advancement of the gospel.

Hi Scott
The whole point of "until Messiah" was that he would go on and fulfill those points and bring the Gospel....in 70 weeks. If he was cut off before the 70th week then his ministry meant nothing. Fact is we preach forgiveness of sins to the world, being made righteous, and Christ ascended to the most Holy place there is.

[petepet]

There's a general consensus among most biblical scholars that the term "sevens" or "weeks" in Daniel's prophecy in chap 9 speaks of a period of seven years. I accept this and you as well seem to accept this. If this is indeed the correct interpretation then seventy sevens or seventy weeks would be 490 years. There is absolutely no biblical demand to stop the prophecy at the end of 483 years and start it back up at a more doctrinally convenient time in the future.

I would very much question your statement that there is a general concensus among scholars that the prophecy refers to seventy sevens of years. There are at least equal numbers, if not more, who see it as referring to 'sevens' (divine periods).

Indeed the way the prophecy is presented suggests this for in it is a deliberate contrast between seventy years and seventy 'sevens'. 'Sevens' are contrasted with years. Its seems strange then to see them as indicating the very thing they are contrasted with. Where the Bible means 'years' it says so.

I do, however, agree with you that there are no good grounds for suggesting an unmentioned gap between the 69 sevens and the seventieth one.

No one would dream of taking Jeremiah's seventy years and saying 'oh there is a gap between the sixty ninth year and the seventieth one'.

In interpreting this prophecy we should also note certain features which are fixed. Thus 'the time of the going forth of the word' (verse 23, 25) is fixed as the time when Daniel commenced praying i.e. 538 BC. Thus sound exegesis indicates that the time of the going forth of the word (from God) to build Jerusalem is 538 BC not 445 BC.

We cannot just pick and choose historical events so as to fit into our theories.

There are also other expressions which are fixed. Thus nowhere in Daniel is the word 'covenant' used of treaties and alliances with kings. It is used only of the covenant with God.

Nowhere in Daniel is the word used for 'prince' (nagid) used of non-Israelite kings and leaders. They are described as 'sar' or 'melech'. Indeed nagid was the favourite title for kings of Israel/Judah throughout Scripture, and it is regularly connected with their anointing. Saul was a nagid. David was a nagid. And so on.
Thus 'the nagid who will come' surely looks back to the coming of the anointed nagid in verse 25.

I would go further and point out that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is mentioned followed immediately by a reference to sacrifices ceasing. Sound exegesis would indicate that both are referring to the same event.

If we would observe these simple facts it would save a lot of misinterpretation of this chapter.

[DurbanDude]

In interpreting this prophecy we should also note certain features which are fixed. Thus 'the time of the going forth of the word' (verse 23, 25) is fixed as the time when Daniel commenced praying i.e. 538 BC. Thus sound exegesis indicates that the time of the going forth of the word (from God) to build Jerusalem is 538 BC not 445 BC.

.

Your "sound exegesis" is based on the Hebrew word "dabar" which means "word". This going forth of the word to restore Jerusalem could easily be referring to a king's decree and certainly is not exclusive to Daniel's prayer. I prefer the decree of Artaxerxes in 458BC, which means that the "coming of the anointed one" occurred when Jesus was anointed in the Jordan in the autumn of 26 AD, and his crucifixion was 3.5 years later in spring of 30 AD as history can confirm.

There are also other expressions which are fixed. Thus nowhere in Daniel is the word 'covenant' used of treaties and alliances with kings. It is used only of the covenant with God.

Nowhere in Daniel is the word used for 'prince' (nagid) used of non-Israelite kings and leaders. They are described as 'sar' or 'melech'. Indeed nagid was the favourite title for kings of Israel/Judah throughout Scripture, and it is regularly connected with their anointing. Saul was a nagid. David was a nagid. And so on.
Thus 'the nagid who will come' surely looks back to the coming of the anointed nagid in verse 25.

No problem with this.

I would go further and point out that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is mentioned followed immediately by a reference to sacrifices ceasing. Sound exegesis would indicate that both are referring to the same event.

Not really, prophecies often go back and forth between events, and often include parenthical passages referring to similar or additional events. Look at Ezekiel 39 for example, it refers to the bird's feast in verse 4 then events following the feast, then back to the bird's feast in verse 17 then events following the feast. Sound exegesis should be highly sensitive to context.

[petepet]

There is a simple law of logic, that if a prophecy has not been fulfilled, it will still be fulfilled. Now Daniel 9 is concerning a special 490 year period for the Jews, however at the crucifixion any specialness for the Jews completely ceased, because the crucifixion opened the way for all. Thus only 486.5 years of the 490 year period has been fulfilled, 3.5 years are left.

Confirming this, is that nothing signicant occurred in the Jewish Autumn of 33AD to complete the 490 year period. It appears that Cornelius conversion occurred in 34AD, by approximate dating, which did not even end the Jewish period, because it was merely confirmation of what happened at the crucifixion and an including of Gentiles, definitely not an ending for the Jewish period.

There was in fact no specialness of the Jews in God's eyes. What was special was to be in obedience to His covenant. Any Gentile who wished to be saved could unite himself with the covenant people (Exodus 12.48). And throughout history large numbers did. God's promises applied to all His covenant people including converted Gentiles. Meanwhile Jews who broke the covenant were cast off (as they were after the exile) just as the branches of the true vine and the branches of the olive tree (John 15.1-6; Romans 11.16-24) were cast off.

Thus in spite of the fact that the disciples did not realise it Gentiles were always to be welcomed into the covenant. What was new was that the same requirements should not be applied to them.

Thus for a considerable period the Apostles did see the Gospel as limited to Jews and proselytes until the Cornelius' incident opened their eyes. So why should not that specific revelation from God of a new situation be seen as culminating the seventy sevens? The fact that we do not know the exact dates is irrelevant. God knew the exact dates. So how do you know that the prophecy was not fulfilled?

Your argument just does not hold. The cross did not open the way to Gentiles. That way had been opened since the time of Abraham (his family tribe included Gentiles, and all were accepted wihin the covenant). It rather opened the way for all to God without Old Testament ritual. And that was what the Cornelius incident established.

[DurbanDude]

There was in fact no specialness of the Jews in God's eyes. What was special was to be in obedience to His covenant. Any Gentile who wished to be saved could unite himself with the covenant people (Exodus 12.48). And throughout history large numbers did. God's promises applied to all His covenant people including converted Gentiles. Meanwhile Jews who broke the covenant were cast off (as they were after the exile) just as the branches of the true vine and the branches of the olive tree (John 15.1-6; Romans 11.16-24) were cast off.

Thus in spite of the fact that the disciples did not realise it Gentiles were always to be welcomed into the covenant. What was new was that the same requirements should not be applied to them.

Thus for a considerable period the Apostles did see the Gospel as limited to Jews and proselytes until the Cornelius' incident opened their eyes. So why should not that specific revelation from God of a new situation be seen as culminating the seventy sevens? The fact that we do not know the exact dates is irrelevant. God knew the exact dates. So how do you know that the prophecy was not fulfilled?

Your argument just does not hold. The cross did not open the way to Gentiles. That way had been opened since the time of Abraham (his family tribe included Gentiles, and all were accepted wihin the covenant). It rather opened the way for all to God without Old Testament ritual. And that was what the Cornelius incident established.

Remember this a prophecy that concerns the coming of the Messiah and the crucifixion, great prophesied Jewish events. And so what was great about the Cornelius event if you say that the Gentiles were always included? I just don't see the cornelius event as ending any period in any manner, the way you describe it, God was just telling them about a new situation that already existed.
And how can you date that event? It seems a bit arbitrary to assign that particular event to the great ending of the 490 year period without even confirmation of a date.