Daniel 9

[vinsight4u8]

The prophecy is about Israel.
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city..." 9:24
But this is not the only part determined in this prophecy. v26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." =7 weeks + the 62 makes 69/
So here ends the 69th week of the determined 70 weeks. Now, instead of telling about the final week, Gabriel begins to tell things as to determined desolations. These desolations are not determined to happen durng the 70 weeks. "...shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....desolations are determined."

Then later comes the final week. This week is what Daniel supplicated about at the start of chapter 9. It is when the he, that has more time left to desolate Jerusalem, finishes it, so as to come to the end of a prophecy that was foretold in Jeremiah.

Daniel 9:3 "...set my face unto the Lord God, to seek...by supplications..."
v23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth...understand..."

v2 "...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
Verse 3 shows that Daniel was confused so he began -- to seek by prayer and supplicatons, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:" some help to understand the words written by Jeremiah the prophet.
Gabriel didn't say the commandment came at the time he prayed -but at the begnning of his suppications. When Daniel began to supplicate the commandment came forth to send Gabriel to him with the answer to the Jeremiah prophecy.

[vinsight4u8]

Everlasting righteousness has not come on Israel's land nor to her people yet. This is what happens at the end of the 70 weeks.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city...to bring in everlasting righteousness."

Daniel 9:24

thy people
thy holy city
Jerusalem can never again be made desolate by the Gentiles. The people of Titus destroyed both the city and the sanctuary after Jesus Christ was here.

70 weeks ----------of determined time
But there are two sections of determined time.
v27 "...he shall make ...desolate...that determined..."

v26 "...desolations are determined." This is for after the 69th week has ended.
The time of Titus ended one determined section of desolations.
The time of the beast will end the determined time of weeks at verse 27.
Israel and her people will get righteousness.

Jer. 51:10 "The LORD hath brought forth our rghteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God."
v8
"Babylon is suddenly fallen..."
v6
"Flee out of the midst of Babylon..."
v4 "...the land of the Chaldeans..."
Israel must go back into captivity in Babylon, and at the end of the 70 weeks get her righteousness.The 7th trumpet will sound, and the saints (church) will put on righteousness.
KJV

[vinsight4u8]

This part was given, even though it came after the first 69 weeks of determined time.

The people under Titus (not being the ruler yet) destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

desolations - determined - but not still on the 69th week

The last section- the final week is linked up with one of Jeremiah's 70-yr prophecies.

This prophecy was read by Daniel (see verse 2/Daniel 9), and Gabriel was sent to help Daniel understand the matter (words) written by Jeremiah.



9:2"...word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet...he...desolations..."

v27"...he shall..desolate...tlll the consummation..."

consummation- end of the time that Daniel had suppllcated about



Jer. 25:11 "...these nations...serve the king of Babylon seventy years."



v12 "And it shall come to pass, when seventy years..."

This prophecy caused Daniel to supplicate as Daniel realized the Babylonian king time was not yet over, even though their kingdom had fallen to the Persians/Medes.

[vinsight4u8]

Daniel's 70th week is yet ahead of us. Babylon /Iraq has yet to fall in the day of the Lord.
See Isaiah 13-14.

[ScottJohnson]

The prophecy is about Israel.
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city..." 9:24
But this is not the only part determined in this prophecy. v26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." =7 weeks + the 62 makes 69/
So here ends the 69th week of the determined 70 weeks. Now, instead of telling about the final week, Gabriel begins to tell things as to determined desolations. These desolations are not determined to happen durng the 70 weeks. "...shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....desolations are determined."

Then later comes the final week. This week is what Daniel supplicated about at the start of chapter 9. It is when the he, that has more time left to desolate Jerusalem, finishes it, so as to come to the end of a prophecy that was foretold in Jeremiah.

Daniel 9:3 "...set my face unto the Lord God, to seek...by supplications..."
v23 "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth...understand..."

v2 "...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
Verse 3 shows that Daniel was confused so he began -- to seek by prayer and supplicatons, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:" some help to understand the words written by Jeremiah the prophet.
Gabriel didn't say the commandment came at the time he prayed -but at the begnning of his suppications. When Daniel began to supplicate the commandment came forth to send Gabriel to him with the answer to the Jeremiah prophecy.

The prophecy claims that between the command to rebuild the city and Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks or sixty nine weeks total. It goes on to say that after sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off. Your interpretation places Christ's death before the sixty nine weeks are complete which is in stark contrast to the actual prophecy.

Dan 9:25-26
(25) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
(26) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

[jeffweeder]

The prophecy claims that between the command to rebuild the city and Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks or sixty nine weeks total. It goes on to say that after sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off. Your interpretation places Christ's death before the sixty nine weeks are complete which is in stark contrast to the actual prophecy.

Dan 9:25-26
(25) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
(26) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

If Christ did his work in the 69th week and then was cut off, then he didnt atone for sin and we dont have a Gospel.
Christs work was done in the 70th week and we do have a Gospel.

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Did Jesus atone for sin at his first coming?
Yes he did, and therefore all those points were fulfilled in the 70th week.

[ScottJohnson]

If Christ did his work in the 69th week and then was cut off, then he didnt atone for sin and we dont have a Gospel.
Christs work was done in the 70th week and we do have a Gospel.



Did Jesus atone for sin at his first coming?
Yes he did, and therefore all those points were fulfilled in the 70th week.

I think I agree with you Jeff. I am of the opinion that the works of Christ did take place following the 69th week during the 70th week.

I'm not really sure why though, if Christ's was sacrificed before the seventieth week began that would negate the atonement of sin and the advancement of the gospel.

[jeffweeder]

I think I agree with you Jeff. I am of the opinion that the works of Christ did take place following the 69th week during the 70th week.

I'm not really sure why though, if Christ's was sacrificed before the seventieth week began that would negate the atonement of sin and the advancement of the gospel.

Hi Scott
The whole point of "until Messiah" was that he would go on and fulfill those points and bring the Gospel....in 70 weeks. If he was cut off before the 70th week then his ministry meant nothing. Fact is we preach forgiveness of sins to the world, being made righteous, and Christ ascended to the most Holy place there is.

[ScottJohnson]

Hi Scott
The whole point of "until Messiah" was that he would go on and fulfill those points and bring the Gospel....in 70 weeks. If he was cut off before the 70th week then his ministry meant nothing. Fact is we preach forgiveness of sins to the world, being made righteous, and Christ ascended to the most Holy place there is.

Okay, I think I understand.

[vinsight4u8]

The prophecy claims that between the command to rebuild the city and Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks or sixty nine weeks total. It goes on to say that after sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off. Your interpretation places Christ's death before the sixty nine weeks are complete which is in stark contrast to the actual prophecy.

Dan 9:25-26
(25) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
(26) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

I see Daniel as being told by Gabriel that it would take 70 determined weeks to finish the transgression. That would seem to show that in Daniel's day the trans- gression started but was not finished. Of those 70 weeks - 7 would be used to rebuild the city - then after that would come 62 more weeks - taking the world to the time of the Messiah as Prince...then time would pass, and even see the destruction of that city that was built in those 7 weeks of years.
Then later - after those determined desolations and war would come what it will take to finish the last week of the determined seventy weeks, so as to finish the transgression, that was started back in Daniel's day.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year...Darius...word of the LORD...to Jeremiah...
v3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications...
v23 At the beginning of thy supplications...understand the matter...

Gabriel was sent to Daniel so he would understand the timing for the rest of Jeremiah's prophecy as to a Babylonian king must be punished and his land, at the end of seventy years of Babylonian kings.

[petepet]

I see Daniel as being told by Gabriel that it would take 70 determined weeks to finish the transgression. That would seem to show that in Daniel's day the trans- gression started but was not finished. Of those 70 weeks - 7 would be used to rebuild the city - then after that would come 62 more weeks - taking the world to the time of the Messiah as Prince...then time would pass, and even see the destruction of that city that was built in those 7 weeks of years.
Then later - after those determined desolations and war would come what it will take to finish the last week of the determined seventy weeks, so as to finish the transgression, that was started back in Daniel's day.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year...Darius...word of the LORD...to Jeremiah...
v3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications...
v23 At the beginning of thy supplications...understand the matter...

Gabriel was sent to Daniel so he would understand the timing for the rest of Jeremiah's prophecy as to a Babylonian king must be punished and his land, at the end of seventy years of Babylonian kings.

I have searched my Bible but i have been unable to find anywhere in Daniel 9 where it says 'time will pass between the sixty ninth and the seventieth seven. There are no grounds at all foir seeing such a gap in the seventy seven except as a consequence of the demands of a theory. Do you also see gaps in Jeremiah's seventy years? Why not?

Babylonian kings do not enter into Daniel 9. Indeed NO KINGS DO.

[vinsight4u8]

[QUOTE

=petepet;2712940]I have searched my Bible but i have been unable to find anywhere in Daniel 9 where it says 'time will pass between the sixty ninth and the seventieth seven. There are no grounds at all foir seeing such a gap in the seventy seven except as a consequence of the demands of a theory. Do you also see gaps in Jeremiah's seventy years? Why not?
[/quote]

Why do you think Daniel prayed as to a he that had 70 years, and then Gabriel ends up with the final week being about a he that desolates - and this he will desolate till the consummation?

v 27 And he shall....make...desolate, even until the consummation...that determined...

<a gap in Jeremiah 25:11?
Absolutely!


Do you agree that Daniel supplicated at the first part of Daniel 9?
If you do, then what had he been doing just a bit ahead of that time of seeking God? Have you looked closely at the first three verses of the chapter?

What year was it?
What had Daniel been doing?
Is the act of finding a prophecy in Jeremiah what caused him to seek God?

Okay, then why at verse 19 did Daniel seem to believe that God had the right to defer the Jews from going back to Jerusalem?

"defer not"
It seems to me that the words in Jeremiah had shown Daniel that something had gone wrong as to fulfilling that Jeremiah 70-yr prophecy - where a he desolates.

Daniel also supplicated ovr the city and the sanctuary - in verses 16-19.
Gabriel comes to explain things, his commandment to go to Daniel was given when Daniel began to supplicate over that Jeremiah prophecy.
So what Gabriel tells Daniel will be involving the city, the sanctuary, and the bringing in of the last part of Jeremiah's prophecy about a he that desolates.

Daiel 9:2 In the first year of Darius...books the number of years...

<Gabriel explains that 70 weeks in this message will be for the rebuilding of the city, wall, street, then add 62 more weeks of the city remains and the sanctuary-till the Messiah the Prince comes and dies for others after the 69th week.
Now, leaving that 70 weeks of determined time that will finish the transgression - Gabriel heads into a story as to how that rebuilt city will go down, even the sanctuary. There will be war.
So the time of Titus was foretold, and he was not in the section of determined seventy weeks.
Titus was in this section of the prophecy - "unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Gabriel has set- 70 determind weeks - and the time of desolations and war/determined.
This alone shows the weeks do not run one right after the other for the entire prophecy.
Then comes later -the final week. This is the week that will finish the Daniel's day started transgression and end the Jeremiah 25:11-12 prophecy.

Jer. 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation...these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
v12 And it shall come to pass when seventy years...I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD,...and the land of the Chaldeans...desolations.

< The last time Babylon fell, she was not yet in power for seventy years, nor was her land desolated.

Babylonian kings do not enter into Daniel 9. Indeed NO KINGS DO.

They entered into the prophecy given by Gabriel because a Babylonian king prophecy was what caused Daniel to supplicate over the words of Jeremiah.

[petepet]

[QUOTE=vinsight4u8;2713008]

=petepet;2712940 - I have searched my Bible but i have been unable to find anywhere in Daniel 9 where it says 'time will pass between the sixty ninth and the seventieth seven. There are no grounds at all foir seeing such a gap in the seventy seven except as a consequence of the demands of a theory. Do you also see gaps in Jeremiah's seventy years? Why not?

Why do you think Daniel prayed as to a he that had 70 years, and then Gabriel ends up with the final week being about a he that desolates - and this he will desolate till the consummation?

v 27 And he shall....make...desolate, even until the consummation...that determined...

<a gap in Jeremiah 25:11?
Absolutely!

But Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy still stood. It was not being abrogated. It was simply that Daniel had a further revelation. After '70 years' Judah was restored. There was no gap.

The desolation was to be until the consummation not until some fictitious 'seventieth seven'.

Do you agree that Daniel supplicated at the first part of Daniel 9?
If you do, then what had he been doing just a bit ahead of that time of seeking God? Have you looked closely at the first three verses of the chapter?

What year was it?

It was 538 BC.

What had Daniel been doing?

Helping to run the Persian empire.

Is the act of finding a prophecy in Jeremiah what caused him to seek God?

Well he was initially concerned about when Jeremiah's seventy years were coming to an end. As he had been taken to Babylon in c. 605 BC the end of the 70 years was approaching. He did not realise that that very year Cyrus would allow the exiles to return.

Okay, then why at verse 19 did Daniel seem to believe that God had the right to defer the Jews from going back to Jerusalem? "defer not"

Up to this point Daniel still has in mind the seventy year return which would shortly take place.

It seems to me that the words in Jeremiah had shown Daniel that something had gone wrong as to fulfilling that Jeremiah 70-yr prophecy - where a he desolates.

Danile never remotely suggest such an idea.

Daniel also supplicated ovr the city and the sanctuary - in verses 16-19.

Yes and shortly God would answerr his prayer. The exiles would return to Judah and Jerusalem, and shortly the rebuilding of the Temple would commence.

Gabriel comes to explain things, his commandment to go to Daniel was given when Daniel began to supplicate over that Jeremiah prophecy.
So what Gabriel tells Daniel will be involving the city, the sanctuary, and the bringing in of the last part of Jeremiah's prophecy about a he that desolates.

Buit this is a new revelatiomn. It is not what Jeremiah was talking about.

Daiel 9:2 In the first year of Darius...books the number of years...

<Gabriel explains that 70 weeks in this message will be for the rebuilding of the city, wall, street, then add 62 more weeks of the city remains and the sanctuary-till the Messiah the Prince comes and dies for others after the 69th week.

But what Daniel refers to in verse 2 was Jeremiah's prophecy which was about to be fulfilled. God decided to also give Daniel a further revelation.

The seventy sevens is not a fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy.

Now, leaving that 70 weeks of determined time that will finish the transgression - Gabriel heads into a story as to how that rebuilt city will go down, even the sanctuary. There will be war.
So the time of Titus was foretold, and he was not in the section of determined seventy weeks.

Now if we assume for a moment that Titus was in mind (although I do not think Titus is referred to, the coming prince (nagid ) is the anointed prince who was coming, the Messiah, and He had already come) there is absolutely no reason for excluding him from being in the seventy sevens. Indeed good exegesis suggests that the destruction of the Temple should be related to the cessation of sacrifice in the midst of the seventieth seven.

Titus was in this section of the prophecy - "unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Gabriel has set- 70 determind weeks - and the time of desolations and war/determined.
This alone shows the weeks do not run one right after the other for the entire prophecy.

I fail to see how this indicates any gap. The gap is put in by you to substantiate your interpretation. But Daniel knew of no gap. All it demonstrates is that the 'sevens' were not sevens of years.

Then comes later -the final week. This is the week that will finish the Daniel's day started transgression and end the Jeremiah 25:11-12 prophecy.

The seventy sevens have nothing directly to do with Jeremiah's prophecy which was of 70 years, and was fulfilled.

Jer. 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation...these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Which they did. Then Cyrus allowed the exiles to return and Jerusalem to be inhabited.

v12 And it shall come to pass when seventy years...I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD,...and the land of the Chaldeans...desolations.

which occurred in 539 BC.

< The last time Babylon fell, she was not yet in power for seventy years, nor was her land desolated.

You cannot be serious. Babylonia was devastated, it was only Babylon itself that was not because it was captured by a ruse. And as we have seen above from the time of Daniel's deportation to the return of the exiles was 67 years, near enough to the round number of 70 years.

They entered into the prophecy given by Gabriel because a Babylonian king prophecy was what caused Daniel to supplicate over the words of Jeremiah.

But the seventy sevens began in 538 BC. They did not therefore include the Babylonian empire.

[vinsight4u8]

[QUOTE=petepet;2713660]

But Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy still stood. It was not being abrogated. It was simply that Daniel had a further revelation. After '70 years' Judah was restored. There was no gap.

Jeremiah gave more than one type of 70-yr prophecy. Both of them began at the same time but they have different requirements in order to be fulfilled.

Jer. 29:10 -------and ---------Jeremiah 25:11-12

For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation...and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
% This prophecy has the Babylonian king to be over the nations for a total of seventy years. 605 to 539 BC will not yet allow this prophecy to pass. Cyrus took down Belshazzar in 539 BC. So the Babylonian kings will yet see themselves over Israel /other nations too for another almost four years.

After the time of the great tribulation -will be this part<

v 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished...

% not just in captivity- but 70 years of Babylon in power

...I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation...the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

When will Babylon take her final fall from power?

Isaiah 13:1 ...burden of Babylon...
v6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD...
v 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, anad the earth shall remove out of her place...
v 19 And Babylon, the glory of the kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees', excellency shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gommorah.
v 20 It shall never be inhabited...neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
v10
The sun shall be darkened...
%What happens to Israel?

chaper 14 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob...set them in their own land...

The desolation was to be until the consummation not until some fictitious 'seventieth seven'.

Daniel 9:2 ...that he would acccomplish seventy years in the desolations...

%only Jer. 25 is about how long he would desolate

9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God to seek by prayer, and supplications,with fastng...

%Do you think Daniel would do all of that over a simple Jer. 29:10 prophecy?
He was wanting to know how the rest of the Babylonian king time would come to pass.
v 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew...understand the matter...

%Daniel had been supplicating over a matter.

The final week brings in the desolating tiime left of the Babylonian kings - till the consummation - to finish the transgression.

It was 538 BC.

Helping to run the Persian empire.

He told us that he had been reading a prophecy as to a he and 70 years.

Well he was initially concerned about when Jeremiah's seventy years were coming to an end. As he had been taken to Babylon in c. 605 BC the end of the 70 years was approaching. He did not realise that that very year Cyrus would allow the exiles to return.

Daniel was in the first year of Darius, it seems this came after Cyrus reigned over Babylon for three years, then after Darius -he took it over again and released what Jews wanted to leave.

But one day will come to pass this<

Jer. 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon...every man...


Gabriel came to show Daniel things as to what he had been supplicating over.

9:2
9:17-18
9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying...
v 21 Yea, while I was speaking, even the man Gabriel...caused to fly swiftly...
v22 ...I am come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

v 24 Seventy weks are determined...to finish the transgression...

But the time of determined destroying of the city and the sanctuary by Titus was not part of the events that will finish the transgressions. Daniel was just being shown what would happen to the city and the sanctuary that the exiles returned had built.
He was then shown that the city would have to come back again in the end days and the "he" would desolate, till the consummation.
<till the end of the transgression
that had been started in Daniel's day-- but was left with some time yet to come

[vinsight4u8]

From Holman Bible Dictionary
pages 142-143

"Nebuchadnezzar II (605 -562 B.C.)
"His successors "his son Awel-marduk (561-560 B.C.)"
"Neriglissar (560 -558 B.C)"
Labashi-Marduk (557 B.C.), murdered as a mere child"
Nabonidus (556-539 B.C.) joint under Belshazzar at the end
"In 539 B.C., The Persian Cyrus II (the Great) entered Babylon
without a fight. Thus ended Babylon's dominant role in Near
Eastern politics."

//
me

Babylon last time - Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon - to the time of Cyrus did not complete what Jeremiah 25:11 has, so that makes verse 12 in the future.

Jer. 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation...and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

///So -----------------this part (25:11) has more of its action time left to come!