Have they been awakened ?
Does anyone here believe to be one of them?
Have they been awakened ?
Does anyone here believe to be one of them?
I also often wear the mantle of one of the 2 witnesses, and am an occassional 24 elder as well.
My advice is to not focus on people groups, heavenly host beings, or any of the like; and rather, do as they do, and worship God and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost of the world, for the salvation of the souls of every human being who is lost.
We as human beings who follow the King have the greatest responsiblity; and that is the one He gave us as He ascended to Heaven...go into all nations, sharing the gospel, reaping the fields white for harvest, knowing He will be with us always; even unto the end of the world.
The 144,000 are not Christians, not even during the trib time. Rev. 7:1 begins a new vision being shown to John. It doesn't require that the things in it take place after the 6th seal.
Rev. 7:1__ "And after these things I saw..."
So between the sixth and seventh seal opening actions -John saw visions.
"And after these things I saw four angels..."
15:5 "And after that I looked..."
18:1 "And after these things..."
Rev. 19:1 "And after these things..."
John saw things in pieces, and we have to let each section start at the point that John was then on in the overall timeline of history, or of the future.
Look at Rev. 7:14___ "...These are they which came out of great
Okay, so where in Rev. 7 is the great tribulation story?
Rev. 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..."
v2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east..."
If this was the first angel to do that - John would have written - I saw an angel ascending from the east. Now we know where the missing great tribulation story goes. Other angels from the east were seen in this time in Rev. 7.
This angel, that is in a set of angels ascending from the east, also has something else.
He has the seal of the living God. The other from the east angel(s) should have that too, so now we know enough clues to understand that the seven angels that leave the temple in heaven - in Rev. 15 -fit in as the others that can seal people and came from the east.
"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God..."
Now we need those Rev 15 seven angels that left the temple in heaven and had certain attire on, and were carrying plagues.
15:6___"And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen...golden girdles.'
girdles - means pockets - This set of seven angels has pockets
has plagues /a way to destroy
wear clean and white line outfits with pockets
Compare these to the time in Ezekiei 7.
"...the vision..." v13
v24 "I will bring the worst of the heathen..."
9:2_"And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate...a slaughter weapon; and one man among them...clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side..."
v4 "...set mark upon the foreheads...Jerusalem..."
Using the pattern set forth in Ezekiel chapters 7 and 9, we can know that the 144,000 were sealed in Rev. 7 by those that came out of the temple in Rev. 15 with plagues and dressed in linen.
Also, per the chapter 9 Ezekiel pattern -the one that did the sealing would then go back to God, and give the report as to what was accomplished.
Ezekiel 9:11_"And..the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter..."
Rev. 7-John tells us that he heard the numbers that were sealed.
/Okay, so ths is when those seven chapter 15 angels stood before God and gave their report.
Notice that verse 1 speaks of "a Lamb". This means this section is not part of the "a Lamb as it had been slain" story back in chapter 5.
5:6_"...stood a Lamb as it had been slain..."
"I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD."
v13__"The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their their mouths..."
Rev. 14:5_"And in their mouths was found no guile..."
You said that Rev. 8 declares the trib begins with the first trumpet. But do the trumpets actually sound in Rev. 8? I say, no they did not. Rev. 8 requires a seven angel set to have already made their change from being seven angels to "the seven angels". That change takes place in Rev. 15. Rev. 8 and its use of giving out trumpets would be harmless, unless the seven angel set had picked up already the plagues they need from chapter 15.
"And the seven angels...having the seven plagues..."
"And I saw the seven angels..."
In Rev. 15 is where that angel set story begins, and where they become "the seven angels", as in already shown to John before this time. So Rev. 8 uses the Rev. 15 angel set that had plagues. This means the Rev. 15 prophecy had to actually be viewed by John in Rev. 7.
Rev. 7 ----a seven angel story begins
/They become "the seven angels".
They have seven plagues.
They seal the 144,000 of the tribes/ done by the "we" angels
that came from the east.
In Rev.15 - one of the four beasts would be in the east and gave the seven golden vials to the seven angels. He is in the east, as it does not say he is among the elders or such, and the cup that Babyln had (per Rev.18) will be used against her.
The sealing job is done/but John never saw any of it happen.
The seven angels - the "we" angels return to stand beore God.
They stand there with their plagues that need done. This will require the seven trumpets.
During the 6th trumpet, the two witnesses are slain, and by 7:14, we find this >"...These are they which came out of great tribulation."
The trumpets actually sound in Rev. 7, and Rev. 8 is just the way that John lets us know that the already sounded the trumpet angels have shown up after the seventh seal -for a new job. the vials
It's 10+ pages on a HTML page. So it would be easier for me to link directly. Here is the source:
Last edited by amazzin; Jun 24th 2011 at 07:39 PM. Reason: link removed. Cult site
The fact that they are identified with the 12 tribes in Rev 7 indicates that they are most certainly Hebrews. I don't believe that the numbers 144,000 as a whole or the divisions of 12,000 from each tribe is intended to be literal.
Once the kingdom divided after Solomon's reign, the tribes of Judah, and Benjamen including Levi made up the southern kingdom while the other ten tribes made up the northern kingdom. The northern kingdom was eventually conquered by the Assyrians and carried into exile where they intermixed with the nations diluting or contaminating their blood line. The posterity of this group made up the people known as the Samaritans at the time of Christ's ministry on Earth. With the exceptions of Judah, Benjamen and Levi, I find it difficult that Jews of that time or even now can trace their lineage directly and purely back to the sons of Jacob without it branching out into different directions.
In Rev 14:4 we're told that these people did not defile themselves with women, I believe that this does not indicate that they were lifelong celibates but rather they had always maintained a true devotion to God even before their conversion to Christianity. The old testament repeatedly equates sexual immorality with religious apostasy. I believe that this is further substantiated by the fact that the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are omitted from the list probably due to their immense propensity for idolatry.
This group is also labeled as the "first fruit" to God and to the Lamb. Paul had repeatedly stated that blessings through Christ are to the Jew first then to the gentile. Likewise condemnation is to the Jew first then to the gentile. Paul also makes mention of an order of salvation in 1 Cor 15:23 but I'm unsure if the first fruit here is indicative of Jewish converts.
The gospel had clearly been given to the Jews first. In Acts 13:46 Paul tells the Jews that it was necessary that the word of God be spoken to them first, but since they thrust it away, they would now take it to the nations. It was also about this time that Peter received his dream of the unclean animals and was led to take the gospel to the Roman centurion, Cornelius and his family in Acts 10 beginning the movement of the gospel into the nations.
I figure that I'll also take some slack from my Pre-mill/futurist brothers and sisters as well my A-mill/posttrib/idealist brothers and sisters, but I also believe based on Rev 7:3 that this group, apostles included, came to Christ and were called between the time of Christ's earthly ministry and the attack on Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. From this point, the gospel has been spreading into the world for the last almost 2000 years.
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
Leave the rest to the Lord.
Did you read the whole thing that I was led to?
Fascinating... everyone who is "Sealed" w/ the Holy Spirit prior to the Tribulation or 7th Seal, which is right around the corner. Much sooner than people think.
Then all those who are Sealed w/ God's Mark will have the ability to yearn to become one of the 144,000 to rule w/ Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior here on Earth for his 1,000 year reign.
That is something that all Christians should strive for I think. It's a beautiful thing doing God's work.
It's going to be a rough and long journey for us all Brothers & Sisters.
Stay Strong. I love you each very much.
- Holy Kiss to you all. and Remember, like Paul said, all the Saints before us, salute us.
The 144,000 are 12 x 12000 emphasising that the reference is emphatically to the twelve tribes of Israel.
But it also emphasises a connection with the new Jerusalem with its twelve gates and twelve foundations, and thus made up of the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles
Who then are the twelve tribes of Israel depicted here? It will be noted that one tribe is omitted. Do we really think that God would exclude the tribe of Dan? This suggests that we are to take it as representing the twelve tribes, not as literally referring to the individuals who would be sealed.
The numbering rather indicates that God's people are numbered. This is in deliberate contrast with those who cannot be numbered. God's people are numbered, because God knows them each one, and yet they are innumerable becaus of the large number that there will be.
Who then are the twelve tribes. James 1.1 indicates that he is writing to 'the twelve tribes'. But in studying the letter we discover that he is writing to the whole Christian church. He could not be writing to just Christian Jews, as he nowhere deals with what their attitude should be towards Gentile Christians. It would have been impossible for him to write ethical instructions at a time when the relationship between Jewish and Gentile Christians was so important (consider Romans 11) without referring to them if he was writing simply to Christian Jews. Thus the letter is to the church as a whole.
This ties in with the view of the Christian church that it WAS Israel. See Galatians 3.29; 6.16; Ephesians 2.11-22; Romans 11.16-24; 1 Peter 2.10; 1 Peter 1.1. Jesus made clear that He was 'the true vine' (the true Israel) in contrast with the degeneerate vine. He indicated that Peter's statement of his Messiahship would be the foundation of the new 'congregation' (ekklesia in the Old Testament indicated the assembly of Israel).
This is not the ides of a replacement, but of a continuation. The coming of the Messiah divided Israel between those who accepted God's Messiah, the true Israel, the true remnant, and those who rejected God's Messiah, the cast off Israel (see Romans 11.16-24).
Thus in the first years of the Apostles' ministry who were Israel? Were they the wholly Jewish church or were they the Messiah rejecters?
Just as after the Exile the syncretistic Jews were rejected by 'the remnant who returned' as not being true Israel so Jesus saw the Messiah rejecters as not being true Israel (John 15.1-6; Matthew 21.43).
Thus for the first few years of the church's history the church which was totally Jewish, and a sizable remnant, was the true Israel.
If we call the rejected Israel the true Israel then we excommunicate the Christian Jews (as shortly Judaism would).
Israel had always been open to welcome proselytes. Thus the true Israel, the Jewish church, opened its arms to Gentile proselytes, and they came in huge numbers to become a part of Israel. That was why the question of circumcision became such an issue. No one would have suggested circumcision for Gentiles. The question arose because these converted Gentiles were becoming a part of Israel. And Paul's answer was not to point out that the church was not Israel. He clearly shows that it was. His answer was that they were circumcised through participation in Christ's death. They were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ (Colossian 2.11).
Thus the church really IS Israel. It is not a replacement of it. The early Jewish church did not replace Israel, they were believing Israel. The people who were rejected from Israel were the unbelieving Jews (Romans 11.16-24).
People have the mistaken idea that the Jews are direct descendants of Jacob. But of course they are not. Righ from the beginning Israel included the children of the servants in the Patriarchal 'household' and as we know Abraham had 318 youing men 'born in his house' (Genesis 14,14). His family tribe must have numbered well over 1000.
The same was true of Jacob. It is probable that the number who went down into Egypt, including households, were a few thousand. And they wwere all part of 'Israel' even though they were not born of Jacob. They were adopted by him
At the Exodus a 'mixed multitude' (Exodus 12.38) left Egypt with Moses and thery all became children of Israel at Sinai and were circumcised on entering the land thus fulfilling the requirement of Exodus 12.48
And so we could go on through Israel's history. Israel was a conglomeration of people. The Edomites were forcibly made Israelites, as were the majority Gentiloe poulation of Galilee in the days of John Hyrcanus and Aristobulus. And they all thereafter claimed to be Israelites, and were accepted as such.
So Israel constantly absorbed large numbers of non- Israelites.
The 144,000 therefore represent the true church as numbered and sealed by God made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. (which is why the omission of Dan does not matter).
Let's refer to the Scriptures, and what the say about the 144K.
1) The 144K are given the seal of the Living God. (Rev 7:2) Christians are sealed. (Matt 6:27, 2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30). Nowhere are unbelievers and rejectors of Christ sealed of God.
2) The 144K are called the servants of God. (Rev 7:3) Christians are the servants of God. (Luke 12:7, Rom 6:18, 2 Cor 4:5). Nowhere do we find unbelievers and rejectors of Christ to be God's servants.
3) The 144K have the name of the Father. (Rev 14:1) Christians alone bear God's name. (Rev 22:4). Nowhere do we find unbelievers and rejectors of Christ bearing God's name.
4) The 144K are in Heaven around God's throne. (Rev 14:3). Christians alone have entrance to Heaven. (John 14:6) Nowhere do we find unbelieving human rejectors of Christ in Heaven.
5) The 144K worship God by singing praises to Him. (Rev 14:3) Christians alone worship God and praise Him. (Acts 2:12, Acts 16:25) Nowhere do we find unbelievers and rejectors of Christ singing praises to God.
6) The 144K follow the Lamb whereever He goes. (Rev 14:4) Christians alone belong to the Lamb. (Matt 4:19, Luke 9:23, John 10:27) Nowhere do we find unbelievers and rejectors of Christ following Jesus wherever He goes.
7) The 144K are the redeemed of the Lamb. (Rev 14:4) Christians are redeemed. (Gal 3:13, Titus 2:14) Nowhere do we find unbelievers or Christ rejectors being counted among the redeemed of the Lamb.
8) The 144K are the firstfruits of the Lamb. (Rev 14:4) Christians are the firstfruits of Christ. (James 1:18) Nowhere do we find unbelievers and Christ rejectors as being firstfruits of the Lamb.
9) The 144K are in without fault and without guile. (Rev 14:5) Christians alone are faultless, washed clean by Christ (Romans 3:25) Nowhere do we find unbelievers and Christ rejectors as being found without fault or guile.
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