144,000 / 12 Tribes of Israel

[petepet]

I also don't see that Jesus went to Tyre and Sidon to escape hostility. It seems that He was seeking a place to rest. Jesus seemed to know that He would be protected from harm until His arrest in Gethsemane. And yes, I am aware that part of that protection could have been that he was lead to Phonecia.

Jesus was man but also God. He was fully endowed by the Holy Spirit. Yes, I believe that the interaction he had with various people did affect his ministry but I can't accept that these interactions played a part in the direction of his ministry. I have to believe that was exclusively divinely directed.

'After this Jesus went about in Galilee, He would not go about in Judea because the Jews sought to kill Him.' (John 7.1).Thus He clearly took into account hostility in determining where He travelled. But I have no desire to be dogmatic about what was in His mind when it is not stated. We can each form our own views about that base on the evidence.

Of course His ministry was divinely directed. And exclusively if you mean by that that He did nothing unless He knew it to be the Fathe's will. But that does not exclude that will being made known to Him by events and what people said.

At least we are both being made to think, which can only be good :-)

[quiet dove]

Well you are perfectly entitled to disagree with my viewpoint. That is your privilege. My view is that through prejudice resulting from Jesus' deity you are failing to recognise His true humanity.

I have no problem or prejudice with the humanity of Jesus, none. However, I also have no prejudice in believing that just because He came in human flesh that He ever ceased to be God the Son. He came in human flesh but He never ceased to be Diety. God's plan of salvation was established long before men needed the salvation, God certainly did not need the 'suggestion' of any man to give Him the idea of also bringing salvation to all men, Jew, Gentile, or whoever. This purpose was established long before and we are told so in the OT
Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Your quote from Luke 2 is irrelevant if you do not explain your case. I notice you have ignored the fact that He grew in wisdom. I wonder why? Why was Jesus listening to the great teachers and asking them questions? Was it just so as to show how clever He was? What a sad picture you draw of Jesus. He listened to them and asked questions because He was learning. Yes His grasp was remarkable, and He was able to add His own contribution. But He was not trying to show them up. He was increasing in knowledge and wisdom.

I did not ignore anything. However, I will then explain the verses in Luke:

Luke 2:46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

It says Jesus was sitting in the temple, those who heard Him were astonished at His ANSWERS, it says nothing about Jesus asking them questions and Him learning much less being astonished at their answers.

I am perfectly well aware of Who and What Jesus was while He was on earth. He was the One Who had emptied Himself and taken on Himself the constraints of mankind. One Who had to grow in knowledge. One Who could be tempted in all points like us. One Who did not know certain things such as the time of His second coming. One Who subjected Himself to the influence and guidance of His father and mother 'He was subject unto them'.

Actually I think you have it backwards. You are reading back into the child Jesus the Jesus of the resurrection and of eternity. Do you really think that Jesus was born with a full knowledge of the Scriptures and total understanding of their meaning? He was born as man. He had to grow into that knowledge. True He was guided by His Father and was therefore not subject to error or sin, but He was certainly not born with perfect knowledge. If He was then there was no true incarnation. If He was He could not suffer true temptation. If He was He could not be tempted like we are.

Jesus suffered just being man. He came from heaven into a body of flesh, that in and of itself would be suffering. And just because He in human flesh was tempted as we are tempted, does not change that fact that He never stopped being Diety. What knowledge Jesus was born with or without has no bearing on the fact that He never ceased to be Diety, nor did He need mans input in terms of His pupose in coming. His purpose in coming having been established long ago, by God, without any need of mans input or help

If we take the account of the Syro-phoenician woman as it is presented Jesus refused to act on her behalf, because He was 'sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel'. And then He altered His position as a result of her reply. And for the next few months He ministered in Gentile territory. You can try to explain that away as you like, but to me the implication is clear. He recognised in her words guidance from His Father which caused Him to expamd His ministry.

And please don't come up with the old chestnut, 'He was only testing her'. His statement was specific and clear. Up to that point He had seen His ministry as to Israel. That was His viewpoint. Now He recognised that He had a ministry to the Gentiles. It was a turning point in His ministry.

Do you really honestly believe that Jesus neededt the input of men in order to think about bringing salvation beyond the Jews to all others? It is clearly stated in the OT prophets, unless you also believe that Jesus had a lack of understanding regarding the very prophecies He came to fulfill? Jesus coming in flesh does not equate to Him forgetting who He was/is. The whole point of this woman was her faith in who He was, has nothing to do with her enlightening Him with an idea concerning His purpose in being here.

We no doubt both believe that Jesus was infallible. What in my view you fail to recognise is that when He emptied Himself He subjected Himself to being a true human being Who had to grow and learn. And Who listened to people and with the guidance of His Father formed His own views accordingly. That does not demean Him. It demonstrates that He had become truly man, and yet was in such close touch with the Father that He was kept from error.

So I do disagree with your view point, but it is not prejudice, Jesus was God, period. His coming in human flesh did not mean He stopped being Diety. Yes, He submitted Himself to the God the Father and God the Spirit, willingly. He ask no more of us than He was willing to give Himself, and we are to follow in His steps submitting ourselves to God, but He still never ceased to know who He was, what He was, or ceased to be God. I agree, He became fully man, but that still does not equate to Him no longer being God the Son-Diety-Divine-Eternal-non created.

[petepet]

I have no problem or prejudice with the humanity of Jesus, none. However, I also have no prejudice in believing that just because He came in human flesh that He ever ceased to be God the Son. He came in human flesh but He never ceased to be Diety. God's plan of salvation was established long before men needed the salvation, God certainly did not need the 'suggestion' of any man to give Him the idea of also bringing salvation to all men, Jew, Gentile, or whoever. This purpose was established long before and we are told so in the OT
Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' "



I did not ignore anything. However, I will then explain the verses in Luke:

Luke 2:46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

It says Jesus was sitting in the temple, those who heard Him were astonished at His ANSWERS, it says nothing about Jesus asking them questions and Him learning much less being astonished at their answers.


Jesus suffered just being man. He came from heaven into a body of flesh, that in and of itself would be suffering. And just because He in human flesh was tempted as we are tempted, does not change that fact that He never stopped being Diety. What knowledge Jesus was born with or without has no bearing on the fact that He never ceased to be Diety, nor did He need mans input in terms of His pupose in coming. His purpose in coming having been established long ago, by God, without any need of mans input or help


Do you really honestly believe that Jesus neededt the input of men in order to think about bringing salvation beyond the Jews to all others? It is clearly stated in the OT prophets, unless you also believe that Jesus had a lack of understanding regarding the very prophecies He came to fulfill? Jesus coming in flesh does not equate to Him forgetting who He was/is. The whole point of this woman was her faith in who He was, has nothing to do with her enlightening Him with an idea concerning His purpose in being here.



So I do disagree with your view point, but it is not prejudice, Jesus was God, period. His coming in human flesh did not mean He stopped being Diety. Yes, He submitted Himself to the God the Father and God the Spirit, willingly. He ask no more of us than He was willing to give Himself, and we are to follow in His steps submitting ourselves to God, but He still never ceased to know who He was, what He was, or ceased to be God. I agree, He became fully man, but that still does not equate to Him no longer being God the Son-Diety-Divine-Eternal-non created.

No one ever suggested that He ceased to be deity, only that He refused to call on His Godhood attributes when living as man

How then do you explain the fact that He did not know the time of His second coming? Did God not know that? If He was using the full attributes of His Godhood He would have known.

The suggestion was not that He had not thought of reaching Gentiles before, but that the woman's reply made Him realise that the time had come when He was to do so. I can assure you I am as fully aware of what the Old Testament says as you are.

Tell me, do your believe that Jesus deceived the woman by telling her that He had come only to the lost tribes of Israel? That was what He said, and if He didn't believe it then it was deceit. So at that point He clearly believed that His mission was only to Israel. And He equally clearly changed His stance as a result of His conversation with the woman.

But what knowledge He was born with makes a great deal of difference to the question of whether He had to learn. You talk as though I have questioned His deity. You really must read what your opponent does say before you criticise. That has been the problem through the ages, that people did not bother to discover what their opponents really did say.

Lol you say that it says nothing about Jesus asking the teachers questions. Read it again. THATS WHAT IT SAYS. And if He was asking them questions He was seeking to learn. QED I said NOTHING about Him being astonished. Please reread what I DID say.

The question is not whether Jesus suffered. The question is as to whether He was tempted in all points like as we are. If He walked on earth in omniscience it is quite clear that He could not have been so tempted. Half of temptation lies in lack of knowledge. If I know what the consequences of my temptation are going to be, there is no temptation.

What is your take on Jesus' prayers in Gethsemane? There He was certainly not sure as to what was fully required from Him, at least for a while.

Personally i think you need to take a deep look at your belief in the true manhood of Christ. It is at the least muddled.

Best wishes.

[Beckrl]

As what time frame do we conclude the northern tribes of Israel losted? It's odd that James would write his letter and address it to the twelve tribes of Israel which are scattered aboard. While we fine in Luke 2:26 a woman named Anna a daughter of Phanuel of the tribe Aser.

It would also seem like a fulfillment of Isaiah 11 as described as a second exodus of those out cast [lost] children of Israel. When we look at the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-11) as those Jews from every nation under heaven. Isaiah prophesied of this day when salvation would come upon the remnant of the children of Israel that was left from Assyria, Egypt, Elam, and the islands from the four corners of the earth. Sound similar doesn't it...

[T W Taylor]

This topic started with the 144,000, - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and it says of all the tribes of the children of Israel. So why do some think Dan and Ephraim are two sons that are left out?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Ephraim is not left out, Joseph had only two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Ephraim is found under the name of his father Joseph, Ephraim being the firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Rev 7:6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

There is a little clue about why Dan did not get the seal, and is left out, in Gen 49. Dan will judge his people AS one of the tribes of Israel. Dan’s mother was Bilhah, the same Bilhah that Reuben went and lay with. (The reason Reuben lost firstborn birth rightes.) Could it be why Dan is not counted as a son of Israel, and AS a tribe of Israel?

Gen 49:16 "Dan shall judge his people As one of the tribes of Israel.

Gen 35:22 And it happened, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine; and Israel heard about it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

Have they been awakened ?

The 144,000 started being sealed right after the six seal started being opened, there may be only two things left to be fulfilled of the six seal.

Does anyone here believe to be one of them?

One said he was one, - I know of another that has the Seal.

[quiet dove]

No one ever suggested that He ceased to be deity, only that He refused to call on His Godhood attributes when living as man

Thats good then, and I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying

How then do you explain the fact that He did not know the time of His second coming? Did God not know that? If He was using the full attributes of His Godhood He would have known.

The thing is, whether or not we can fully explain what He said with the statement, does not change what I was saying in my last post, in that God did not need, nor did Jesus need, the suggestions of men in regards to an already established Divine purpose to redeem men.

The suggestion was not that He had not thought of reaching Gentiles before, but that the woman's reply made Him realise that the time had come when He was to do so. I can assure you I am as fully aware of what the Old Testament says as you are.

My point is that nothing was taking Jesus by surprise or was He in any way having His decisions and the timing of His actions determined or otherwise being directed by men. In other words, the woman, just like the blind man, was always a part of God's plan. As were all that Jesus healed and had any type interactions with.

Tell me, do your believe that Jesus deceived the woman by telling her that He had come only to the lost tribes of Israel? That was what He said, and if He didn't believe it then it was deceit. So at that point He clearly believed that His mission was only to Israel. And He equally clearly changed His stance as a result of His conversation with the woman.

It was not deception, it was timing. The prophecies regarding the Messiah were given to Israel right, not Gentiles. We are just told that the Gentiles would be included and thus know it was always God's intent. But the thing is, to me anyway, since the prophecies were actually given to Israel, Jesus was sent to Israel. I look at it as God giving Israel the opportunity to choose, while He knew what their reaction and choice would be, He still allowed them to make it, just like He does with all of us. While He has His purpose and plan to accomplish and He will see it done, He still never takes our free will away, He gave it to us and He does not take it away, so Israel had to choose
But we can see that Jesus was compassionate and the faith of this woman was responded to as God responds to faith and does love all men, Jew and Gentile.

But what knowledge He was born with makes a great deal of difference to the question of whether He had to learn. You talk as though I have questioned His deity. You really must read what your opponent does say before you criticise. That has been the problem through the ages, that people did not bother to discover what their opponents really did say.

I did read your post, not all of them but the one I responded to, and again, I do apologize for misunderstanding what you said. You kinda pretty much accused me of have prejudice in regards to His humanity and thus seemed to lean hard in the direction of His humanity. Christ Deity is very important, as I am sure you agree, I just wanted to stress that, not to criticize, but because it is so very important, I mean, He is our God and to me it is very important that others understand His Deity and thus that benefits them in their understanding of the Gospel.

Lol you say that it says nothing about Jesus asking the teachers questions. Read it again. THATS WHAT IT SAYS. And if He was asking them questions He was seeking to learn. QED I said NOTHING about Him being astonished. Please reread what I DID say.

Luke 2:46Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

It says both, and while He was asking questions, THEY, were astonished with His answers. We have other examples, ones that are more clear, in that Jesus ask questions, not because He did not know the answers, but because He wanted to test those He ask.

The question is not whether Jesus suffered. The question is as to whether He was tempted in all points like as we are. If He walked on earth in omniscience it is quite clear that He could not have been so tempted. Half of temptation lies in lack of knowledge. If I know what the consequences of my temptation are going to be, there is no temptation.

I agree that Jesus was tempted, He could have changed His mind, could He not? He chose to come of willingly, submitting entirely to His Father and the Spirit, I think we agree on that. My point is that His obedience was more than just not "sinning", He fully gave all, as you said, emptied Himself, for us. Fully submitting to His Fathers will, something He was not forced to do, as He said, myriads of angels would come to Him if He commanded them to do so. But I do agree, He was tempted. That does not equate to Him not knowing who He was though. That is just it, and the reason for us to know He remained God in that only God could accomplish our redemption.

What is your take on Jesus' prayers in Gethsemane? There He was certainly not sure as to what was fully required from Him, at least for a while.

I think He fully knew what was to come, and what was required of Him, thus the reason for His prayer. I do believe He had submitted, as a man, to His Father. As He prayed "not my will but yours be done". But this does not mean He didn't know what was coming, after all, He was fully aware His betrayer was coming, right? He knew.

Personally i think you need to take a deep look at your belief in the true manhood of Christ. It is at the least muddled.

Best wishes.

Which would be harder, knowing what you left to come here and accomplish redemption, or not knowing what you left and just trying to figure out what you were to do moment by moment.

Think about it, I mean, if I never experienced "good", and lived in the 'bad', versus, having experienced 'good' and being thrown into the 'bad'. He left heaven, to become man, I understand that, that's just it. As Creator, He submitted as the created, but that does not mean He became created. It means that He gave all for us in terms of accomplishing God the Fathers purpose.

You know, I don't pretend to understand it all, I think anyone who does would be kidding themselves. I just know that He never stopped being Deity, which we agree on. And that God didn't need mens help in regards to His plan of redemption. He will accomplish His purposes with our without us. As Jesus said, the rocks would cry out. Jesus wasn't fumbling through His earthly life, He knew exactly who He was and what He was doing, every detail already according to His Fathers will, and the two are as one. right?

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Ok, I have read this over but I have to go finish supper, so if there are any half sentences ....sorry....

[petepet]

As what time frame do we conclude the northern tribes of Israel losted? It's odd that James would write his letter and address it to the twelve tribes of Israel which are scattered aboard. While we fine in Luke 2:26 a woman named Anna a daughter of Phanuel of the tribe Aser.

It would also seem like a fulfillment of Isaiah 11 as described as a second exodus of those out cast [lost] children of Israel. When we look at the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-11) as those Jews from every nation under heaven. Isaiah prophesied of this day when salvation would come upon the remnant of the children of Israel that was left from Assyria, Egypt, Elam, and the islands from the four corners of the earth. Sound similar doesn't it...

There was never a time when when the whole of any tribe was lost. The faithful in Northern Israel had transferred to Judah long before northern Israel's devastation. They wanted to continue worshipping in God's Temple. Thus Judah becamer a mixture of the twelve tribes.

[ScottJohnson]

'After this Jesus went about in Galilee, He would not go about in Judea because the Jews sought to kill Him.' (John 7.1).Thus He clearly took into account hostility in determining where He travelled. But I have no desire to be dogmatic about what was in His mind when it is not stated. We can each form our own views about that base on the evidence.

I stand corrected Again. I'm obviously loosing it. I know I've read this very passage many times before.

Of course His ministry was divinely directed. And exclusively if you mean by that that He did nothing unless He knew it to be the Fathe's will. But that does not exclude that will being made known to Him by events and what people said.

I agree with that. Of course at the same time, I tend to have a long running bias that the thoughts of the Father telepathically lead the Son. But as you've pointed out, Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane didn't sound like the prayer of one that knew the precise outcome of the events that were to make up the final day of His natural life.

At least we are both being made to think, which can only be good :-)

All and all, it's been a pretty fruitful discussion. I think I've come out a little bit more informed. Although my opinion of the 144,000 remains as it was, even stronger now, you've helped to open my eyes in other areas and for that I thank you.

[petepet]

I stand corrected Again. I'm obviously loosing it. I know I've read this very passage many times before.


I agree with that. Of course at the same time, I tend to have a long running bias that the thoughts of the Father telepathically lead the Son. But as you've pointed out, Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane didn't sound like the prayer of one that knew the precise outcome of the events that were to make up the final day of His natural life.


All and all, it's been a pretty fruitful discussion. I think I've come out a little bit more informed. Although my opinion of the 144,000 remains as it was, even stronger now, you've helped to open my eyes in other areas and for that I thank you.

Thank you also, and we can both retire in the confidence that what conclusion we come to will not alter God's ways one little bit :-))

[The Mighty Sword]

This is what the book of Matthew has to say:

Matthew 10

5These twelve Yeshua sent and he commanded them and he said, “You shall not go by a road of the heathen and you shall not enter a city of the Samaritans.” 6“But go especially to the sheep that have been lost of the house of Israel.”

23“But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another, for truly I say to you, you will not have finished all the cities of the house of Israel until The Son of Man come.” (His return because Jesus is already with them).

Re: The 144K.

DigitalNinja Have they been awakened ?

Does anyone here believe to be one of them?

Personally I don't know if I am because I am not a descendant of the 12 tribes, but GOD knows.

I also believe the 144K will not be dispatched until after the rapture but during the great tribulation.
So until all of the house of Israel has heard the the gospel and believe Yeshua is the Messiah it won't happen until then, unless there is scripture stating otherwise, and there very well might be.

[Beckrl]

There was never a time when when the whole of any tribe was lost. The faithful in Northern Israel had transferred to Judah long before northern Israel's devastation. They wanted to continue worshipping in God's Temple. Thus Judah becamer a mixture of the twelve tribes.

I agree, I believe even the tribe of Benjamin that Paul stated that he was from were once among the northern tribes. But what I was pointing out was how Isaiah propheised the return of the remnant of those left from Assyria and aboard. These would return as an anti-type of the children of Israel in the wilderness during the exodus from Egypt. We can see them among those Jews on the day of Pentecost of which came from every nation under heaven. If one liked they could compare the nations that Isaiah listed to what is listed in Acts.

Isaiah 11:11-1211And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush,[Ethiopia]and from Elam,[Persia] and from Shinar,[Babylonia] and from Hamath,[Syria] and from the islands of the sea[Mediterranean]. 12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Acts 2:9-119 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

In other words from the four corners of the earth as described by both Isaiah and Revelation. This same image is given by John in Revelation of the 144,000 Jews from the tribes of Israel. In which the seal of God or should we say the Holy Spirit was given to them that the wrath of God would not come upon them. That given of the seal of God begun on the day of Pentecost to as many as would believe of them and their children and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. How should we understand by this that Peter was ascribing the promise of the Holy Spirit unto Gentiles? No! I believe not at this time, but shows us that the so called lost children of Israel those that where left among those nations/Gentiles.

[T W Taylor]

I agree, I believe even the tribe of Benjamin that Paul stated that he was from were once among the northern tribes.

Hey Beckrl, Judah and Benjamin were the southern kingdom. Benjamin stayed with Judah and they became the kingdom of Judah. ( Known as the Jews)

1Kings 12:21 And when Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah with the tribe of Benjamin, one hundred and eighty thousand chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, that he might restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

1Kings 12:22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

1Kings 12:23 "Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, to all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people, saying,

1Kings 12:24 'Thus says the Lord: "You shall not go up nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel. Let every man return to his house, for this thing is from Me." ' " Therefore they obeyed the word of the Lord, and turned back, according to the word of the Lord.

144,000 Jews from the tribes of Israel. In which the seal of God or should we say the Holy Spirit was given to them

The Elect, or Chosen are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise of redemption. The 144,000 Servants are Redeemed, and sealed with the Name of the Father.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

[petepet]

The Elect, or Chosen are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise of redemption. The 144,000 Servants are Redeemed, and sealed with the Name of the Father.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

That both the elect and the 144,000 were redeemed is of course true, in my view because both represent the church of the Messiah, the true Israel.

But you will note that the 144,000 were the servants of God and were sealed on their forehead. It does not say at that stage that the Father's name was written on their foreheads. This last occurred later because they had proved to be overcomers. As Jesus had promised them:

"He who overcomes --- I will write upon him the Name of My God --- and My own new Name' (Revelation 3.12). So having the Father's Name written on their foreheads was the reward for overcoming. This of course demonstrates that all this referred to the church was on earth, and then subsequently. But their initial sealing was with the Holy Spirit because they were God's servants, that is, the elect.

[Beckrl]

Hey Beckrl, Judah and Benjamin were the southern kingdom. Benjamin stayed with Judah and they became the kingdom of Judah. ( Known as the Jews)

The tribe of Benjamin was at one time part of the Northern kingdom. Notice I said 'once was among the northren tribes'

After the death of Saul, all the tribes other than Judah remained loyal to the House of Saul, but after the death of Ish-bosheth, Saul's son and successor to the throne of Israel, the Tribe of Benjamin joined the northern Israelite tribes in making David, who was then the king of Judah, king of a re-united Kingdom of Israel. However, on the accession of Rehoboam, David's grandson, in c. 930 BCE the northern tribes split from the House of David to reform a Kingdom of Israel as the Northern Kingdom. However, this time the Tribe of Benjamin remained loyal to the House of David, and remained a part of the Kingdom of Judah, in which it remained until Judah was conquered by Babylon in c. 586 BCE and the population deported. (Wikipedia)

I look at Benjamin as the younger brother that at one time agreed with his ten older brother's but when Judah spoke against the ten Benjamin then run to Judah's side. To me as the younger brother not really knowing which way to go for himself. He finally makes the better decision to go with Judah, but even so all the children of Israel would be taken captive to foreign land including the tribes of Benjamin and Judah. Some say the ten northren tribes were forever losted, but scripture tells a much different story. They were never losted only they remained in that foreign land. See Acts 2 of the many Jews from those foreign lands that knew how to return to Jerusalem for the feast. These are the same children of Israel that where scattered aboard that James wrote to in his letter to the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul said to the Roman's christain's that God has not casted away his people which he foreknew...Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Roman 11)

The Elect, or Chosen are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise of redemption. The 144,000 Servants are Redeemed, and sealed with the Name of the Father.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

I'm not sure you what your point is here, but I agree that those that received the promise of the Holy Spirit was the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. According to the acts of the apostles many received with gladness on Pentecost.

[T W Taylor]

Hey Beckrl, good to talk to you again. I think we agree here, before they split all 13 were tribes were together and called Israel.

The tribe of Benjamin was at one time part of the Northern kingdom. Notice I said 'once was among the northren tribes'

See Acts 2 of the many Jews from those foreign lands that knew how to return to Jerusalem for the feast. These are the same children of Israel that where scattered aboard that James wrote to in his letter to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

These were Jews, (Judah). All Jews did not return from the captives that went to Babylon.

My point is that the 144,000 were not all Jews, only 12,000 were Jews. The other tribes of Israel never returned. The last tribe of Israel (Ephraim) was taken captive about 200 years before the Jews were taken to Babylon in 722BC, Israel was never called Jews.

Even Jeremiah knew where Israel was. (Ephraim)

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:10 "Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, And declare it in the isles afar off, and say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.'