Marvel not at this

[forum lurker]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn. 5:28-29)

What could have been the reason for the Jews' marveling? Did they believe there would be separate resurrections for the righteous & wicked?

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep .For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul must have known what Jesus had said, but yet he holds on to the belief of separate resurrections.

[vinsight4u8]

There would be a resurrection of a small number of saints after Jesus arose. But only Jesus put on eternal life at that time.
They were not to marvel at the small amount of saints that awoke, because later would come the hour when all in the grave will hear.

an hour for those getting life
and an hour for those that will rise to be lost forever

[vinsight4u8]

Look at the time of the 7th trumpet -where the trumpet story is laid out in detail for us. It is time to judge the dead - but only the saints type of people are rewarded then, those that fear His name, prophets. It is because only the righteous have risen and been changed. (see Rev. 11)
This is when Jesus will appear/the day that Paul waits for to get his laid up for him crown.

2Timothy 4:1 I charge...the Lord Jesus Christ , who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.
v 8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown...shall give me at that day...that love his appearing.

[Amos_with_goats]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn. 5:28-29)

What could have been the reason for the Jews' marveling? Did they believe there would be separate resurrections for the righteous & wicked?

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep .For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul must have known what Jesus had said, but yet he holds on to the belief of separate resurrections.

Is the intent of your post to attempt to establish the 'multi-phase' resurrection that would be required by a pre-trib belief?

If so, you will find that approach is neither in scripture nor does it make sense as a matter of 'justice' or the character of the Lord. That 1 Thes 4 would state that "The dead in Christ shall rise first" does not in any way translate to "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then the dead not in Christ, and then the dead in Christ who die during the tribulation... and then the dead in Christ who die during the tribulation... and then left handed believers, and then those with last names beginning with letters A-N... etc."

This has been discussed at length as one of the (many) significant problems for the pre-trib position in this thread.

[forum lurker]

Look at the time of the 7th trumpet -where the trumpet story is laid out in detail for us. It is time to judge the dead - but only the saints type of people are rewarded then, those that fear His name, prophets. It is because only the righteous have risen and been changed. (see Rev. 11)
This is when Jesus will appear/the day that Paul waits for to get his laid up for him crown.

So, this isn't the event mentioned in 1 Thess. 4.

[forum lurker]

This has been discussed at length as one of the (many) significant problems for the pre-trib position in this thread.

Ok, mods can close the thread, if so.

[Amos_with_goats]

Ok, mods can close the thread, if so.

Oh not discussing closing it, just seems to me that the point of this thread is the same as the one already in progress.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place first.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Before the 'gathering together'

1 Thessalonians 4:17

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

No mention of yet another resurrection of those saints we DO see being killed in the midst of the tribulation.

If pre-trib were true, there would have to be a 'pre-trib resurrection' and a 'post trib' ressurection for those who are 'dead in Christ'....[

No such mention of any such thing in scripture...

[vinsight4u8]

So, this isn't the event mentioned in 1 Thess. 4.

Yes, the 7th trumpet time set within Rev. 7 is when Jesus will bring the sleeping saints, and resurrect them to life. John 5, as to the hour of the resurrection to life is the same hour as the two witnesses will rise also in Rev. 7 at the resurrrection of the just. Then - at the end of Rev. 7's story are seen men in the temple that came out of great tribulation.
The saints are changed in Rev. 19, after the time of the fall of mystery, Babylon (that great city). The saints all put on righteousness in Rev. 19, then come back as armies out of heaven ahead of events leading to Armageddon.

[forum lurker]

If pre-trib were true, there would have to be a 'pre-trib resurrection' and a 'post trib' ressurection for those who are 'dead in Christ'....[

I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, I'm not sure whether it's closer to a pre- or post-trib resurrection..

However, I don't think even the pre-trib view would require multiple resurrections for Christians, if the tribulation saints are those who miss the rapture and join the body of Christ afterwards.

[quiet dove]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn. 5:28-29)

What could have been the reason for the Jews' marveling? Did they believe there would be separate resurrections for the righteous & wicked?

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep .For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul must have known what Jesus had said, but yet he holds on to the belief of separate resurrections.

OMHO,--It needs to be taken in full context(vv21-40). Jesus, I believe, speaks not only of 'being raised' but in verse 24 begins speaking of the Gospel and that therefore, through Christ is life. All judgement has been given to Christ, so in Him in is hands are the determination of life or death over all men, when they are fianlly 'raised' from mortal death(v21)

Jesus was also making very clear and strong claims of His deity, claiming Himself equal with God the Father, which of course enraged many and thus they sought to kill Him. They knew His claims of being the Son of God were a claim of equality with God and also of Deity. And they did not take that well at all.

But I believe He begins by speaking of life and death in terms of the Gospel, speaking of men believing Him and thus going from being dead to being given life in Him, the Gospel. Moving on in verse 29, He is saying that all men, every one of us/them-every man ever born, will be raised and either face eternal condemnation or be given life through Christ Jesus, and this judgment has been given to Christ, but as verse 30 clearly indicates, Christ is always in perfect harmony with the Father in terms of His judgments.

The biggest focus with the bit of scripture to me seems that when a man is resurrected, Jesus is the one who has been given authority over the judgment of each and every person. It is a claim of His deity, His equality with God the Father. It is claims of who and what He is....God the Son, Divine, Eternal, Deity....God.

And He then sums it up
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

[forum lurker]

"The dead in Christ shall rise first" does not in any way translate to "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then the dead not in Christ, and then the dead in Christ who die during the tribulation... and then the dead in Christ who die during the tribulation... and then left handed believers, and then those with last names beginning with letters A-N... etc." [/URL].

Well, a small number of saints rose with Christ, so there are at least two phases in the resurrections already.

Hmm, could they have been those with names beginning with letters A-N..?

[petepet]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn. 5:28-29)

What could have been the reason for the Jews' marveling? Did they believe there would be separate resurrections for the righteous & wicked?

What they were not to marvel at was verse 27, that the Son of Man had been given authority to execute judgment
by the Father.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep .For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul must have known what Jesus had said, but yet he holds on to the belief of separate resurrections.

I see nowhere a mention of separate resurrections, the dead in Christ rise prior to the transformation of the living saints which occurs 'in the twinkling of an eye, followed immediastely by the resurrection of the unrighteous. All occur at the same time.

No one as far as i know demands that they all occur at the same split second.

[John146]

Oh not discussing closing it, just seems to me that the point of this thread is the same as the one already in progress.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place first.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Before the 'gathering together'

1 Thessalonians 4:17

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

No mention of yet another resurrection of those saints we DO see being killed in the midst of the tribulation.

If pre-trib were true, there would have to be a 'pre-trib resurrection' and a 'post trib' ressurection for those who are 'dead in Christ'....[

No such mention of any such thing in scripture...

Exactly. The context of that passage is not to say the dead in Christ rise first and then some time later (such as a thousand years according to premil) the dead not in Christ are raised. The context is that the dead in Christ rise first before those who are still alive are caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The timing of the resurrection of unbelievers is not in view in that passage at all. Paul was only talking about the timing of things as it relates to the dead in Christ and those who are still alive at His coming.

[John146]

Well, a small number of saints rose with Christ, so there are at least two phases in the resurrections already.

Hmm, could they have been those with names beginning with letters A-N..?

The context of 1 Thess 4 is the dead in Christ being raised unto bodily immortality. No one besides Christ has yet been raised unto bodily immortality.