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Thread: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

  1. #16
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Folks struggle to say this because of the term "angel". Angels are spirit beings in which like mankind the Son is the chief. So in the heavens the son is the chief of the angels being spirit likewise himself. He is the chief angel, the lord of all the host (of heaven). Upon earth this chief angel (Son of God, word of God) of the Lord became flesh in the person of Jesus.

    God's Angel?

    Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

    First God's angel can only be God himself. The Greek indicates "his" is his own of the same, his personal angel.

    The individual which is speaking is the angel and he says he comes quickly which is the reference to the second coming.

    Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    John falls down to worship this angel, why? Was John confused to whom this person was? I think not, rather he equated this being to the Lord.

    Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

    Why does the angel tell John not to worship him? Is it because he is not whom he states? No rather rightly he points the worship to the father being in submission. Note also the angel did not say worship the son but God. Knowing however the son is also God there is nothing in error.

    Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    The angel verifies whom he is. Comes quickly with rewards, alpha omega,

    Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


    Again we have a personal pronoun "mine" indicating it is Jesus's own angel.

    Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    John has been talking with the angel of the Lord whom was Jesus in the flesh upon the earth and whom sits upon the right hand in heaven as the son of God.
    If you are trying to prove your case per the OP, might not be a good idea to include a verse that completely contradicts what you are trying to prove.

    Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


    Let's look at this a little closer.

    Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    Compare that to the times when Jesus was alive 2000 years ago and that some worshiped Him at the time. Not one single time did He ever tell any of them not to do that, such as this angel in Rev 22 does. The reason why Jesus never told them to not do that, the answer is found in Revelation 22:9 for one, that being this....worship God. And since Jesus is indeed God, and that this angel in Rev 22 isn't, Jesus had no reason to ever rebuke anyone trying to worship Him, but this angel does since this angel is not God. Because if this angel were indeed God, he would have never told John to not fall down and worship him.

  2. #17
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    The bible never refers to Jesus as an created Angel, but the son of God and God.
    Again. I am saying a non created angel. The angel of the Lord

    The bible already mentions arch angels ... Michael being one of them.
    Well you will need to get your thinking cap on..... and step out of the box for this one.

    So the voice of the Lord raises the dead.

    John 5
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    Now we see the voice of the Lord is of an "archangel". The Lord has an "archangel voice". Thus making his as the archangel. Which is the chief of all angels.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Now let's get back to Michael.

    Michael means "one who as like God"....Michael is one of the spirits of God seen in Rev 5. He is one of the 7 angels. Note these 7 angels are are part of the Lamb. They are his eyes and horns. So is the lamb made up of created parts. God forbid, Thus these 7 spirits are also non created beings. This actually makes up the Holy Spirit of God which is divided in 7 parts.

    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

  3. #18

    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    So your saying there are angels that always existed with God and were always there and were never created by God?

    Well, imo no. All angels are created. The only thing that always existed and is eternal is God [Father, son, Holy Spirit].

    All Angels who serve God are Gods Angels. Even Gabriel is considered an angel of the LORD. (Luke 1:19, Mt 1:20).

    Jesus was never an angel.

    Michael was a archangel as recorded in Jude 1:9.

    Archangel G743. archaggelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:--archangel.





    [QUOTE=ross3421;3385656]

    Again. I am saying a non created angel. The angel of the Lord



    Well you will need to get your thinking cap on..... and step out of the box for this one.

    So the voice of the Lord raises the dead.

    John 5
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    Now we see the voice of the Lord is of an "archangel". The Lord has an "archangel voice". Thus making his as the archangel. Which is the chief of all angels.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Now let's get back to Michael.

    Michael means "one who as like God"....Michael is one of the spirits of God seen in Rev 5. He is one of the 7 angels. Note these 7 angels are are part of the Lamb. They are his eyes and horns. So is the lamb made up of created parts. God forbid, Thus these 7 spirits are also non created beings. This actually makes up the Holy Spirit of God which is divided in 7 parts.

    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

  4. #19

    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Jesus is not an angel, He is God.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

    I'm testing you to see whether you are a Jehovah's Witness.

    See also the following scriptures in the order given. Exodus 3:14, John 8:58-59, John 10:31-33, John 8:24.

    If you are a Jehovah's Witness, allow me to reveal to you in the now that Jehovah (the LORD) is the Mighty God according to Psalms 50:1 KJV. Now compare Isaiah 9:6.

  5. #20
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
    Jesus is not an angel, He is God.
    I'm testing you to see whether you are a Jehovah's Witness.
    I believe in the triune God with three distinct parts. God the Son being subject to God the Father.

    The JWs error in that they do not believe Jesus as God. But Jesus can be no other as his Father is God and has all his characteristics. Non created being one. Just as you take the characteristics of your father though being subject to him.

    Now for the angel part. The son of God can take the form of a man but not an angel? Are you saying he can't? Ask yourself what really is an angel? They are spirits. And we know there are non created spirits, right?

    The angel of the Lord. Are you saying this is a created being? I hope not.

    If so you may need to test yourself.

  6. #21
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    All angels are created.
    So are you saying the angel of the Lord is created?

    The only thing that always existed and is eternal is God [Father, son, Holy Spirit].
    Yes but I now understand The Son has 7 subjected parts which are the seven spirits of God.

    Why? The Lamb CANNOT have eyes and horns of a created being. Among other reasons.

    As he is at the right hand of the father these spirits are in his right hand.

    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Jesus was never an angel.
    He was made better than the angels per inheritance but so too better than man. But he appeared as a man but he cannot appear as a angel?

    What is an angel? A spirit. And we know there are non created spirits, right?

    Archangel G743. archaggelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:--archangel.
    Did you not notice that the Lord has a voice of an arch angel?

  7. #22
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Did you not notice that the Lord has a voice of an arch angel?
    He doesn't. The voice of the archangel is an angel sounding a trump which signals Christ's second coming.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #23
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The voice of the archangel is an angel sounding a trump which signals Christ's second coming.
    The trump.

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    If the trump of God raises the dead then it cannot be from a created angel.

    The voice

    5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Only the voice of the Lord can raise the dead. Thus voice of the archangel is the same as the Lord's voice.

    The Shout

    God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.

    Note here as an example the shout and trumpet sound both from the Lord and are the same.

    So what we have here is one sound from the Lord. The shout from the Lord is like a sound of a trumpet and is of the voice of the archangel. This sound pertains to raising the dead.

  9. #24

    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Yes, imo all angels are created. Angel of the LORD appears numerous times in the OT and New.


    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So are you saying the angel of the Lord is created?

  10. #25
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The trump.

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    If the trump of God raises the dead then it cannot be from a created angel.
    An angel sounds the trumpet and God raises the dead of course.


    The voice

    5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Only the voice of the Lord can raise the dead. Thus voice of the archangel is the same as the Lord's voice.
    Uh....no. A voice of an archangel does not raise the dead but the voice of God does. You just said a created angel can't do this and yet here you are claiming there is no difference between angel and the Lord.


    B]The Shout[/B]

    God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.

    Note here as an example the shout and trumpet sound both from the Lord and are the same.

    So what we have here is one sound from the Lord. The shout from the Lord is like a sound of a trumpet and is of the voice of the archangel. This sound pertains to raising the dead.

    Nope. The shout is the voice of an archangel blowing his trumpet. That signal is when Christ returns and then the dead in Christ rise and the rapture happens.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #26
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    An angel sounds the trumpet and God raises the dead of course
    .

    Need to clarify the angel's 7th ttrumpet and the trump of God are not att he same time. The 7th trumpet preceeds the rasing the dead. So you have the 7th angel blowing his trumpet then afterwards the Lord decends with the trump of God.

    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


    Uh....no. A voice of an archangel does not raise the dead but the voice of God does. You just said a created angel can't do this and yet here you are claiming there is no difference between angel and the Lord.
    The voice of the archangel is an angel sounding a trump
    How does the voice of an archangel be equal to the trump of God.? Would not the trumpet be making the noise not the voice.......think about it.


    Nope. The shout is the voice of an archangel blowing his trumpet.
    Nope the shout is the sound as a trumpet no trumpet being blown here.. The Lord shouts with a voice of an archangel a trumpet's voice.

  12. #27
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    .

    Need to clarify the angel's 7th ttrumpet and the trump of God are not att he same time.
    They are the one and same trump.


    The 7th trumpet preceeds the rasing the dead. So you have the 7th angel blowing his trumpet then afterwards the Lord decends with the trump of God.
    Not quite. The 7th trump is the trump of God, all 7 trumps are, and it sounds and that signals Christ to return.


    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    Which is not relevant to this discussion.


    How does the voice of an archangel be equal to the trump of God.? Would not the trumpet be making the noise not the voice.......think about it.
    The sounding of a trumpet is also said to be the voice of whoever is sounding it.

    Exo_19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

    Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    the word shout is not really a shout.

    2752

    2752 keleuma {kel'-yoo-mah}

    from 2753; TDNT - 3:656,*; n n

    AV - shout 1; 1

    1) an order, command, spec. a stimulating cry, either that by which
    animals are roused and urged on by man, as horses by charioteers,
    hounds by hunters, etc., or that by which a signal is given to
    men
    , e.g. to rowers by the master of a ship, to soldiers by a
    commander (with a loud summons, a trumpet call)
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    the word shout is not really a shout.

    2752

    2752 keleuma {kel'-yoo-mah}

    from 2753; TDNT - 3:656,*; n n

    AV - shout 1; 1

    1) an order, command, spec. a stimulating cry, either that by which
    animals are roused and urged on by man, as horses by charioteers,
    hounds by hunters, etc., or that by which a signal is given to
    men
    , e.g. to rowers by the master of a ship, to soldiers by a
    commander (with a loud summons, a trumpet call)



    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Nope the shout is the sound as a trumpet no trumpet being blown here.. The Lord shouts with a voice of an archangel a trumpet's voice.
    Exactly Ross it is the Lord Jesus who is giving this command - he telling the Dead to rise.

  14. #29
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct yet you seemed to be arguing the exact Opposite in another op
    That's Ross's comments not mine. It just didn't get quoted properly.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #30
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    Re: Angel in Revelation 22 is Jesus.

    the term 'angel' is not always used in scripture to denote a created being.
    sometimes the term 'angel' just means a messenger.
    sometimes 'the term 'angel' means YHWH Elohim Adonai.

    just like
    sometimes the term 'man' doesn't mean human being.
    sometimes the term 'god' doesn't mean Yhwh Almighty.

    don't broadbrush stroke words, study their contexts, usages and variations.

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