המשיח הגיע בבשר
No I don't,the problem is that the sacrifices aren't separable from the future events,big problem. However,it is the only major problem I see with pre-mil eschatology. The prophetic interpretations of the amils remind me of the seventh day position on revelation. E.B.White did some real somersaults to fit her square pegs of historic events into the round holes of prophecy just as the amils do.Originally Posted by arc111
Lord,one thing I ask...use me for your glory.
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I would like to point out to the readers the devestating effect that this interpretative means leads to, and the extremes to which some will go to avoid the possibility of literal fulfillments of prophecy.
petepet, what are you thinking? Even the Jews, who knew not Christ, GOT THIS ONE RIGHT! If Herod would have asked YOU where the messiah would be born you would have had no idea! Your interpretative methods apparently are unable to arrive at any conclusive truth! The old adage that 'given enough rope, he will hang himself' is suitable here.
Matthew 2
1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born.
5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:
6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel."
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I will agree with you here. At this point I can only speculate as to the reinstitution of the sacrifes, as I have not studied it deeply enough. Amil interpretation allows to have any meaning whatsoever the interpreter chooses. petepet is an example, saying in a recent post that Micah's prophecy of the messiah being born in Bethlehem is not, in his opinion, even aa actual prophecy of Jesus' birthplace. I think that he is now debating me with his position apparently being that NO prophecy can have literal fulfillment.
המשיח הגיע בבשר
The problem the amils have is that Jesus literally fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the first coming. The scripture predicted that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem and he was. He wasn't born in some figurative or mystical representation of Bethlehem,he was born in the literal town.He wasn't born of some figurative representation of a virgin,he was born of a real virgin. The sharper pre-mils understand their inconsistency in prophetic interpretation and try to mystically define the prophecies concerning the first coming or eliminate them altogether. I have heard some even say that the sign give in Isaiah 7:14 wasn't about the virgin birth as well
The fact is,Jesus literally fulfilled all the prophecies concerning his first coming and he will fulfill the ones concerning his second coming the same way.
This fact alone shows the error of the a-mil position.
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From the book of Matthew are given numerous examples of prophecy being LITERALLY FULFILLED. I have posted many of those (just from Matthew) below.
Does your method of interpreting prophecy even allow for 'LITERAL FULFILLMENT'? Must prophecy always be symbolic and figurative? Surely you see the great weakness of your method.
Besides which, I have now demonstrated that under inspiration, Matthew gives over and over again that the prophets were to be interpreted literally. I am trying to find even one example in which Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, ever mentions any prophecy that was NOT to be interpreted literally.
THIS IS VERY COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT PROPHECY SHOULD BE INTERPRETED LITERALLY!
Matthew 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:16-18
16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Matthew 2:22-23
22But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 4:13-15
13And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Matthew 8:16-17
16When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew 12:13-21
13Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. 15But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;16And charged them that they should not make him known: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Matthew 13:34-36
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 21:3-5
3And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Matthew 26:55-57
55In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
57And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
Matthew 27:8-10
8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Matthew 27:34-35
34They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. 35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
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Agreed. How can the amil deny these literal first coming prophetic fulfillments when Matthew's Gospel is constructed on this very thing? Under inspiration, Matthew over and over again gives examples of literal fulfillments of OT prophets.The problem the amils have is that Jesus literally fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the first coming. The scripture predicted that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem and he was. He wasn't born in some figurative or mystical representation of Bethlehem,he was born in the literal town.He wasn't born of some figurative representation of a virgin,he was born of a real virgin. The sharper pre-mils understand their inconsistency in prophetic interpretation and try to mystically define the prophecies concerning the first coming or eliminate them altogether. I have heard some even say that the sign give in Isaiah 7:14 wasn't about the virgin birth as well
The fact is,Jesus literally fulfilled all the prophecies concerning his first coming and he will fulfill the ones concerning his second coming the same way.
This fact alone shows the error of the a-mil position.
Game set match -Jesus
Gday arc
Why do you think this period is expressed in 3 different ways?...and why didnt Jesus or the epistles express it thus?
Wouldnt we know the day ,if at some point we could count down the days (42 months) to his second coming?
If that were the case then you can expect a lot of date setters to arise at some point in the eschatological scheme of things.
Also how can we have a crowd of people that cant be counted that come out of GT, if its only 42 months long. We know how many people are on the planet as i speak, so why cant we count their number after a mere 42 months?
I live here!
I have to admit, these are good points. Let's say there's 5 billion people on this planet now. And let's say this 42 months starts tomorrow. When this 42 months is completed, how many of these 5 billion would actually die for the Lord? It couldn't be that great of a number, because if we throw the mark of the beast into the mix, Revelation seems to indicate a good majority of the world will worship the beast.
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For what appears to be the same referenced time-event within prophetic texts, this identical time reference appears.
forty-two months (Revelation 13:5);
twelve hundred and sixty days (Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6);
a time, times and half a time, or three years and a half (Revelation 12:14,
Daniel 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Using 30 day months, 360 day years"
3.5 years = 1260 days (3.5 X 360)
3.5 years = 42 months (3.5 X 12)
3.5 years = Time + Times + Half a Time
It seems that God is communicating to us a precise time period.
There will always be date setters, and in order for there to be precision, even with a given time period, THERE MUST BE A CLEARLY DEFINED BEGINNING POINT. I think this 'starting point' may be difficult to precisely pin down. But it is probable that a person could at least get it within the correct 'season'.
The Great Tribulation will have worldwide implications. Precisely how many people are there on the planet 'as we speak'?Also how can we have a crowd of people that cant be counted that come out of GT, if its only 42 months long. We know how many people are on the planet as i speak, so why cant we count their number after a mere 42 months?
I live here!
Don't get me wrong, I'm premil just like you. But I also like to try and be logical about things whenever possible.
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
What about these passages? If this occurs within or even before this 42 months, these Scriptures indicate 1/3 part of the world will be killed. Already the world's population is dwindling, according to these passages, thus making it hard to reconcile a number too great to count, of men and women who came thru a literal 42 month tribulation.
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Luk 12:1 "In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
Does anyone suppose that there was an absolutely innumerable multitude of people surrounding Jesus as Luke indicates? In reading the entire text of Rev 7, a couple of things are notable:
(1) In Rev. 7:4, John HEARS the number who are sealed - 144,000. (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel). In other words, John doesn't have to personally 'estimate' the number. He is given the precise number of 144,000. This seems a very ordered number. I think of viewing the encampment of Israel around the tabernacle from an aerial perspective. Basically rows and columns...very ordered, each grouped under their tribal standard.
(2) In Rev. 7:9, John is not given a precise number, and there is no order to what he sees. This is a mixed mass, there is no orderliness, here there is no assemblage by nationality, color or tribe. I think of the throng of people at the Superbowl stadium being viewed from the air. There would be no way that a man could count them as they jostle about.
And so while it is literally true that this multitude is 'innumberable', it is not true that it is infinite. Particular circumstances can make it difficult to count the numbers, although in reality the actual number may, or may not, be all that large.
What is apparent is that there is a sharp contrast between the Jewish 144,000 who are numbered and very ordered and who are 'sealed' while still alive on earth AND what could be described as a great multitude of mixed nationalities of martyrs who are singing and waving pond fronds as they are gathered around the throne room of the Lamb.
One could almost say that the entire description is intended as one of contrast.
Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
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I also try to understand seeming contradictions, and there are apparent contradictions with any of the major eschatological views. Perhaps they are there to inspire us to study the scriptures daily to see what things are true.
We see as though 'through a glass darkly', and this seems especially so regarding end times prophecy. The great divergence of views, imo, is whether to interpret the scriptures from a 'primarily literal' position or from a 'primarily allegorical' position.
Coffee Break
lol you have to laugh. you see that's your problem. unless people see it your way they are wrong. you have no breadth
of vision.
Most prophecies have a number of fulfilments. Initially the prophecy was as I said, a prophecy concerning the house of David. This at a time when the house of David was in decline. Micah was indicating that the house of David would rise again. But you will note that there is no mention of the Messiah. Indeed when he wrote the Messiah as an expectation was unknown. All hopes were pinned on the Davidic house. I challenge you to show me anything in the prophecy which clearly indicates the Messiah. The fact that his going forth was from ancient days linked this king back to David and to God's promnise concerning the house of David in 2 Sm 7.
But when the hopes of a Messiah began to rise (the first possible mention is in Daniel 9) the Jews began to link such prophecies to the Messiah. This especially happened in the Targums.
The same is true of the prophecy that you cited from Psalm 22. Initially it referred to David. But remarkably it had a greater fufilment in great David's greater son, but this was not known until after the event. It was not the clear prophecy you like to make out it was.
But the Jews began to see many things messianically which originally were not. And of course Jesus was from the house of David. So yes He was included in it.
I believe in the fulfilment of prophecy. But I don't believe that the prophets just sat there like fortune tellers forecasting the distant future. They were not like Nostradamus. Their message was to the people of their day. Daniel was the exception, and even he was encouraging the people who were in exile with promises of a future.
God caused the prophets to speak in such a way that their words both applied to their own time and contained an element that would later be seen as referring to the Messiah. This is the remarkable truth about much prophecy. But of course people like you who relegate the book of Revelation to the future in spite of its clear application to the people of John's day are not likely to see it. You make the Bible a book of fortune telling!! My God is greater than that !!
המשיח הגיע בבשר
How about the fact that Jesus was actually born there? It is absurd not to apply this to the Messiah. The jews fully understood what this meant:
Mt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. Mt 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,Mt 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel
The reason it wasn't clear is perhaps they were trying to assign some mystical and figurative interpretation to a prophecy that was to be literally fulfilled. A-mils make the same mistake today.But when the hopes of a Messiah began to rise (the first possible mention is in Daniel 9) the Jews began to link such prophecies to the Messiah. This especially happened in the Targums.
The same is true of the prophecy that you cited from Psalm 22. Initially it referred to David. But remarkably it had a greater fufilment in great David's greater son, but this was not known until after the event. It was not the clear prophecy you like to make out it was.
But the Jews began to see many things messianically which originally were not. And of course Jesus was from the house of David. So yes He was included in it.
The prophets didn't sit there like fortune tellers,that is true,it was God who was telling the future:I believe in the fulfilment of prophecy. But I don't believe that the prophets just sat there like fortune tellers forecasting the distant future. They were not like Nostradamus. Their message was to the people of their day. Daniel was the exception, and even he was encouraging the people who were in exile with promises of a future.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
My God is able to tell the end from the beginning and he does so. However,I am glad you understand the prophetic law of double reference,it pretty negates the a-mil position that most of the prophecies have been fulfilled.God caused the prophets to speak in such a way that their words both applied to their own time and contained an element that would later be seen as referring to the Messiah. This is the remarkable truth about much prophecy. But of course people like you who relegate the book of Revelation to the future in spite of its clear application to the people of John's day are not likely to see it. You make the Bible a book of fortune telling!! My God is greater than that !!
Grand Master
Petepet is not speaking for the majority of reasonable minded A-mills on this board. Sorry for having to say this but if you tar us with the same brush you could end up making a mistake yourself.
If one is broken on this road of gravel,
That we travel:
He can fix him. Nothing licks Him.
It was never a mistake to trust the Lord.
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