Amillennialism and Dispensationalism are both Anti-Semitic in their core ideology

[the rookie]

Well, "altered" was your word choice. Mine was "released" or "set free", and Rom. 7 is probably the most helpful passage on that.

I don't think we understand Romans 7 the same way.

You use the word "appreciate" a lot, but how exactly do you mean it, because I don't think your definition is recognized by any worthwhile dictionary. Just sayin'.

"To understand a situation fully; to recognize the full implications of"

The other definition, not interchangeable, is "to be grateful for". I have meant both within this thread. Now whether the dictionary I used was worthwhile is up to you.

[ScottJohnson]

A few problems -

God knew in advance that they would be unfaithful. Therefore, as it relates to the Abrahamic Covenant, "both parties" were technically God. As it relates to the Mosaic Covenant, God prophesied both Israel's future faithfulness and future unfaithfulness as it related to the only conditional covenant of the "big four". He foreknew that they would be unfaithful; yet also foretold the day of their faithfulness - which are Paul's big points in Romans 11. As it relates to the Davidic Covenant - well, we both know how that turned out (David was faithful, God was faithful); but then we have to debate the nature of the kingdom and the throne as it relates to fulfillment, which tends to go in circles.

I stand corrected on my opinion of the covenantal agreements between God and His people. Obviously, there are unilateral/unconditional covenants and bilateral/conditional covenants.

I agree with you that both the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are both unilateral.

Abraham was promised that his posterity would become a great nation (or that he would become the father of many nations) and that through his seed, the nations would be blessed.

David was promised that his posterity would remain on his throne in to perpetuity.

Both of these can only find there end result in Christ.

The Mosaic covenant was bilateral. It was also the source of the Hebrew religion, their system of temple worship, their politics, their culture and their pride.

It's also the covenant that the writer of Hebrews claimed "was with fault", "was not regarded by the Hebrew people" and "which was being replaced with a better covenant that has been mediated by Christ and is founded on a better promise". Heb 8:6-13.

This too finds it's end result in Christ, in that Christ is the heartbeat of the new covenant which God recognizes. It's God that took away the religious, political and cultural ways of the Jewish people, not the amillennialist. We only recognize that in doing so, God has offered them a better way, in which they can approach His throne where they stand without the legalistic burden which caused so many to stumble.

Heb 8:13 In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing.

While the Amillennialist denies the idea that the 'ways' that have been removed from Jewish society, will one day be re-initiated, This doesn't make us anti-Semitic anymore than disagreeing with the president's policies make us a racist. God has met His obligations in Christ. If that doesn't meet with someone's expectations......bummer.

Depends. Paul seems to differentiate between "covenants" and "promises" - but says that the all pertain to ethnic Israel, and not Gentile believers as it relates to honor amongst the brethren and recognition of God's pattern and leadership in Romans 9.

I'm not sure if anyone would contest this and if they do, then why? I acknowledged earlier that Christianity rose out of Jewish society. Even the new covenant in Christ was promised and delivered first to the Jews. At the same time, though, God fulfilled his promise that ethnic Israel would be a light to the gentiles. From out of Israel, the gospel went out to the nations. Gentiles have been joined with Israel as fellow partakers of the blessings. This is not anti-Semitic.

The "new way" for those Jewish believers didn't look that much different than the "old way" in some ways; in other ways, radically different. But as it relates to the future, changing the terms God established related to promises and covenants that "pertain" to the Jews can be, yes, anti-Semitic.

Changing "terms"?!? You've completely lost me here. Please explain
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Addedum: Sorry Rookie, I just had a "duh" moment. I thought by terms, you meant words. I understand now that you were referring to the language used to describe the intent of the covenant or promise. I'd still be interested in examples though.

[Raybob]

Animal Sacrifices: Past & Future

By John C. Whitcomb, Th.D.
Whitcomb Ministries, Inc., Orange Park, Florida

...Now what does all of this indicate with regard to animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple for Israel under the new covenant? It indicates future sacrifices will have nothing to do with eternal salvation which comes only through true faith in God. It also indicates future animal sacrifices will be “effectual” and “expiatory” only in terms of the strict provision for ceremonial and thus temporal forgiveness within the theocracy of Israel. ...

So according to this pre-miller, people 'of Isreal' such as myself, being a saved Jew, can never attain permanent salvation, only "temporal forgiveness." I wonder if he also thinks I'll be thrown in the lake of fire at the 'third' coming, after this supposed future millennium? According to him, there is never any permanent salvation to Israel, only "temporal forgiveness". I'm sure glad the bible doesn't agree with this pre-miller.

[Raybob]

In Acts 17, Paul is clear that every boundary of every nation - without exception - is drawn by God Himself. Is Israel suddenly the exception to Paul's rule?

Can you point me to the verse that mentions boundries of nations being drawn by God? I can't find it.

Thanks,
RB

[sheina maidle]

So according to this pre-miller, people 'of Isreal' such as myself, being a saved Jew, can never attain permanent salvation, only "temporal forgiveness." I wonder if he also thinks I'll be thrown in the lake of fire at the 'third' coming, after this supposed future millennium? According to him, there is never any permanent salvation to Israel, only "temporal forgiveness". I'm sure glad the bible doesn't agree with this pre-miller.

Saved Jews and Gentiles are members of the Body of Christ/the Church. The Body of Christ/the Church is not "New Israel" or "Spiritual Israel"

I don't know where you find anything in that article that has anything to do with temporary salvation of the people of Israel.

A supposed Millennium? The Millennium is not "supposed"...it is a literal 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ from David's throne in Jerusalem.

The Millennium has a Purpose, a People, and a Punishment (Judgment). Before jumping to conclusions about pre-millers, read this article written by a born again Jewish pre-miller:

THE MILLENNIUM: ITS PURPOSE, PEOPLE AND PUNISHMENT

[sheina maidle]

Can you point me to the verse that mentions boundries of nations being drawn by God? I can't find it.

Thanks,
RB

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

[Raybob]

...I don't know where you find anything in that article that has anything to do with temporary salvation of the people of Israel. ..

I got it from this statement you provided earlier: "It also indicates future animal sacrifices will be “effectual” and “expiatory” only in terms of the strict provision for ceremonial and thus temporal forgiveness within the theocracy of Israel."

So, since I'm saved, I get an immortal body but my dad and other unsaved Jewish relatives will stay in their physical bodies and only get "temporal forgiveness" while I get my immortal body. Then where do they go after that supposed future period? I'm sure glad the bible doesn't agree with that. I can't believe it for a second.

[DurbanDude]

DD, I've read many of your posts. Reading them, it looks to me like you are pre-mill, post-trib on belief of the rapture, but you are clearly post-mill in terms of the 2nd coming. All of the 2nd coming passages, you equate to as happening AFTER the millennium. I'm speaking of the many 2nd coming passages, such as John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25. That, IMO, makes you a Post-mill believer, not pre-mill.

Maybe you are just misunderstanding my posts. The second coming occurs at the beginning of the millenium, that's what I've always said. Maybe you have misunderstood my position because I always do agree that the second coming is the "last day" and also agree that there is judgment at the second coming, but I relate that judgment to the seperation of the two groups at the "rapture" at the second coming, and only 1000 years later is the GWT judgment.

The main differences I have with the standard dispensational theory is that I believe Israel will be the "beast empire" and I believe in a 3.5 year trib without the need for a rebuilt temple or re-instituted sacrifices before the second coming. Having these beliefs I do not fall into the trap of dispensationalists of having too much support for Israel which is basically another wordly country, albeit one that through its western allies is starting to dominate the Middle East. I do believe that theJews will be open to the gospel for that 3.5 year period, and God will protect them during that period.

[DurbanDude]

Wow, thanks. I never thought of this aspect here, well, several things but this stuck out first.
"The vast majority of people born during the Millennial Age will remain unbelievers, Revelation 20.7-9, needing the protection from the immediate wrath of holy God, for which animal sacrifices will provide in accordance with divine design and function in the Mosaic Law."

I'm completely in agreement with sheina maidle here. I always quote 2 Thess 1 which states that those who do not know God at the second coming are forever seperated from His glory, so if they survive into the millenium they are not saved. When we read Zechariah 14, this certainly isn't the way saved believers would be treated by God, with discipline if they do not worship as per those surviving nations. Additonally Rev 19:15 indicates that the surviving nations are ruled with an iron rod, this is indicative of strict rule. Also Rev 20 is clear that the nations are deceived by satan at the end of the millenium, which makes it impossible for them to be saved, because they are then thrown into the lake of fire. So the millenium starts and ends with the majority as unsaved.

[Nihil Obstat]

"To understand a situation fully; to recognize the full implications of"

So you "recognize the full implications of" futurism's anti-gospel millennium? I personally would never say that I "appreciate" this difficulty that futurism is plagued with if I were a futurist myself; that's why I asked how you were defining that word, because I knew you couldn't have been "grateful for" the problem.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Great post, Matt! Not much to add to or say, other than, "yep".

Awesome, thanks Dave!

I will add this to the mix - I know one very prominent amillennial scholar (maybe the most prominent) who said publicly, recently, that the "greatest mistake the U.N. ever made was establishing a Jewish state in the middle east". That statement cuts to the heart of what I am saying. There are more than a few European amillennialists who are openly anti-Israel at best, quietly anti-Semitic at worst.

Regarding the question of the current Jewish state and its right to the land of Israel-Palestine (to use an inclusive term for the time being), it's obviously a very complex and volatile issue for all parties involved. It seems to me, though, that terms like "anti-Israel" have a way of carrying a lot more connotation than they probably should, which tends to stir up the pot at a point where we should all be cool and keen. If the term is a shorthand way of saying "anti-exclusively-Jewish-state-of-Israel", well then that's one thing, and I must say that I greatly sympathize with this position, as have many humanitarian Jews like Albert Einstein (see Einstein on Israel and Zionism by Fred Jerome). But unfortunately the term tends to be heard as a shorthand way of saying "anti-Jewish" and/or "anti-God's-heart-and-plans-for-Israel", whether it is intended to be heard this way or not. I for one am neither of these things, and I'm always a little skeptical when the label is thrown at this or that scholar because he or she states a political position at odds with the rank and file of American Evangelicalism.

Honestly, I don't claim to know all the issues tied up in this, but it seems to me that the problem with an exclusively Jewish state is the very same problem as an exclusively Palestinian state. As Gary M. Burge puts it, "if the Jewish people are the indigenous people of this land, then the Palestinians are indigenous nowhere. And if the Palestinians are indigenous there, then the Jewish people are indigenous nowhere" (Jesus and the Land).

We hear often in Evangelical America of the atrocities of Palestinians committed against Jews, but rarely do we hear of the atrocities of Jews committed against Palestinians. We do not hear, for instance, that over the course of the Israeli-Arab wars over 400 Arab villages were carefully emptied or destroyed by Israeli soldiers, which has resulted in the world's largest refugee crisis (see The Ethnic Cleansing of Israel by I. Pappe). Graffiti written by these soldiers in occupied villages announced that the Arabs would be pushed "into the desert". As Burge observes, "few better examples could be found in the twentieth century of a modern nation-state using ancient religious land claims to advance its purposes."

I understand that, ultimately, God stands sovereign over the boundary-lines of nations and peoples, but this can't be grounds for justifying an exclusively Jewish state any more than it could justify an exclusively Aryan Europe. Do the Jews have an inalienable right to the land of Israel-Palestine as defined by the 1967 borders simply because they are the Jews, or should they be held to the same standards as the rest of the international community? And should our Christian love for the Jews mean hatred for the Palestinians? Because if that's what being anti-Semitic boils down to, then I guess I am indeed an anti-Semite.

[sheina maidle]

Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

Israel belongs to God.

God called out Abram/Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3) and He gave this land of Israel to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob so they could live separated from the heathen peoples in order to fulfill God's purposes.

The nation of Israel does indeed have the right to exist because God said it does. It's not up to any man or nation to make that determination.

[DurbanDude]

Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

Israel belongs to God.

God called out Abram/Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3) and He gave this land of Israel to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob so they could live separated from the heathen peoples in order to fulfill God's purposes.

The nation of Israel does indeed have the right to exist because God said it does. It's not up to any man or nation to make that determination.

You say "right to exist", but God always promised to "destroy" Israel when they did not worship Him correctly. This is why the Egyptians invaded, then the Assyrians, then the Babylonians then the Romans. Each time was directly because they did not serve God correctly.

The land remains God's, and in the millenium Israel will serve God correctly, but in the meantime God will send his final army of judgment, the northern army (ref Joel) or Gog (ref Ezekiel 38), this Israel is about to be judged for its wrongdoing, I do not think the current political state of Israel deserves our support but rather our preaching. They need to be warned to serve Jesus because the current Israel will be increasing its influence through the man of sin, not through God.

[Fenris]

You say "right to exist", but God always promised to "destroy" Israel when they did not worship Him correctly.

Not so. Many punishments are stated, but the total destruction of Israel is not one of them.

Leviticus 26-

first the good part

3 If ye walk in My statutes, and keep My commandments, and do them; 4 then I will give your rains in their season, and the land shall yield her produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time; and ye shall eat your bread until ye have enough, and dwell in your land safely. 6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid; and I will cause evil beasts to cease out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. 7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8 And five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand; and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. 9 And I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you; and will establish My covenant with you. 10 And ye shall eat old store long kept, and ye shall bring forth the old from before the new. 11 And I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be My people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bars of your yoke, and made you go upright

Ok, fair enough. Now what if we don't?

14 But if ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; 15 and if ye shall reject My statutes, and if your soul abhor Mine ordinances, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but break My covenant; 16 I also will do this unto you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall make the eyes to fail, and the soul to languish; and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 And I will set My face against you, and ye shall be smitten before your enemies; they that hate you shall rule over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. 18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto Me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins. 19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield her produce, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. 21 And if ye walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 And I will send the beast of the field among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your ways shall become desolate. 23 And if in spite of these things ye will not be corrected unto Me, but will walk contrary unto Me; 24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins. 25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute the vengeance of the covenant; and ye shall be gathered together within your cities; and I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. 26 When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver your bread again by weight; and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. {S} 27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto Me, but walk contrary unto Me; 28 then I will walk contrary unto you in fury; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your sun-pillars, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 And I will make your cities a waste, and will bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 And I will bring the land into desolation; and your enemies that dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you; and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste. 34 Then shall the land be paid her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye are in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and repay her sabbaths. 35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall have rest; even the rest which it had not in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 36 And as for them that are left of you, I will send a faintness into their heart in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a driven leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as one fleeth from the sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37 And they shall stumble one upon another, as it were before the sword, when none pursueth; and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 And ye shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. 40 And they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their treachery which they committed against Me, and also that they have walked contrary unto Me. 41 I also will walk contrary unto them, and bring them into the land of their enemies; if then perchance their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then be paid the punishment of their iniquity;

Terrible punishments, to be sure. But the chapter doesn't end there.

42 then will I remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 43 For the land shall lie forsaken without them, and shall be paid her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them; and they shall be paid the punishment of their iniquity; because, even because they rejected Mine ordinances, and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

because God is faithful, even if we are not.

[Adstars]

I believe you are right in saying total destruction is not on the cards for the Jews. But i believe God showed what He will do in the future by what He did in the past.

When the Hebrews where first lead out of Egypt to go into the Promised land they refused to enter. God did not totally destroy them at that time. But none of the generation that refused to go into the Promised Land escaped death in the wilderness. Only their innocent little ones who did not know good or evil at the time of the refusal, they where allowed to go onto the Promised Land 40 years later.

I believe a similar thing will happen when the Messiah Jesus returns. Those who personally refused to enter into His Kingdom will not see it. But their innocent little ones will be the Remnant that will be preserved. This way God can both keep His covenant with Abraham and not compromise His justice.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days